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      05-18-2011, 08:51 AM   #45
rs6655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
how many miles is your commute? If it is 100+ miles both ways then you are in the vast minority. Most commutes are < 60 miles, leaving 100 miles to "cruze around aimlessly". But keep in mind, the people who will drive this car don't find much please in "cruzing" the i3. They might have a weekend car for pleasure driving.
I agree 100%.

I would love to have a vehicle like this so I could keep the "road car" parked more.

Being retired we don't commute. But we always seem to be running to town for one reason or another. We live out in the country about 35 miles from the nearest big town and even at that distance this vehicle would work for shopping, dinner, going to the movies etc. I would add that to be "greener" you need to try to get the charging off the grid. That will come after the cars. Here in FL I could solar charge one for free most of the time.

Charles Darwin's quote fits this situation so well:

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”
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      05-18-2011, 11:52 AM   #46
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i like!

btw: it isn't 160 mile range, it's 160km... or about 100 miles.
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      05-19-2011, 02:45 AM   #47
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      05-19-2011, 12:49 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neph View Post
i like!

btw: it isn't 160 mile range, it's 160km... or about 100 miles.
what is your source? This press release says 160 miles.

Also the miniE was about 100 miles so I expect the i3 to be more
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      05-19-2011, 07:38 PM   #49
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160KM or ~ 100 mile range:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/electri...60-mile-range/
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      05-20-2011, 07:53 AM   #50
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The hint is in the name 'citycar', forget about think of this car as anything else, it's for tootling around town/city and nothing more. The 100 mile range basically means you can either travel up to that distance if you are going to stay over in order to recharge it's batteries or up to half of that range on a return trip.

Frankly £30k for this is mental, a toy for the filthy rich to make them feel like they are doing their bit towards the planet. Now if BMW put the technology of their i8 into a saloon instead of a sportscar then I will sit up and listen because without the ability to charge on the move the uses for electric cars are very limited to the majority.
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      05-20-2011, 02:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanos1 View Post
Ermmm...please do some research yourself before calling people idiots.

BMW still strongly beleives that hydrogen is the fuel of the future.

Hydrogen has an energy 'density' which makes it a very efficient fuel - one kilo of hydrogen contains three times as much energy as a kilo of oil
Hydrogen can be efficiently transported and stored and therefore helps tackle supply and demand issues
Hydrogen is suitable for a decentralised energy supply – it is available throughout the world and is not limited to a specific region.

Hydrogen is set to become a major energy source in the future but there are many hurdles to overcome. New technologies have to be developed, tested and go into production. Their efficiency and profitability have to be ensured and they must gain a broad customer acceptance before market entry. Lastly, a viable infrastructure (for example, hydrogen filling stations) needs to be put in place.

In 2006 BMW supplied the Mayor of London with a hydrogen fuel 7 series to prove that it was a viable solution to our energy problems.

You may want to do some research into BMW and their hydrogen beliefs, there are a number of BMW websites with this information.

Regards
Vanos1


LMAO... Please do you're own research before trying to debunk my ideas. My professor is the head scientist for exxon-mobil in their quest for an efficient and cheap fuel cell that can be used by the general population. I've had tons of conversations with him about this.

Hydrogen in gas form DOES have an energy density of 120 MJ/kg. BUT that is in the gas form, do you know how much volume one 1kg of the least dense element on the planet is? ALOT! So, in order to be able to hold enough hydrogen in a car, it needs to be compressed into a liquid form (compressed=explosive when there's an accident).

When hydrogen is liquified it only has a energy density of 9 MJ/L which is nothing compared to gasoline at 31 MJ/L (translation= you need more than 3 times as much liquid hydrogen to get the same amount of usable energy out as gasoline to power a car). Other energy densities for example are: methanol 16 MJ/L and ethanol 21 MJ/L. FINALLY, when hydrogen is compressed, it's energy density is further reduced to 4.7 MJ/L (or ~7 times less energy per liter of gasoline).

SO, in summary, hydrogen won't work for cars. It may work for a power source for much bigger things, but cars are way too small.

BMW scrapped their hydrogen project, it was just a marketing strategy to show how BMW is really technologically advanced. They don't think hydrogen is the future


wow it is so funny that people think they know what they are talking about on this forum. This is you now:
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      05-20-2011, 02:28 PM   #52
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lol i did. It is theoretically possible and it was to prove somebody wrong who said you can never extract more energy from hydrogen as you can with gasoline.
Read my post above....
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      05-20-2011, 02:32 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXMO View Post
You are the big idiot here (sorry but it's true)
The amount of energy that can be extracted from 1 liter of pure water is 0.111kg×300.000×300.000 = 10.000.000.000.000.000 joules (the equivalent of 1633986 barrels of oil which contain 42 US gallon each.) Have a nice day!
I don't even know where to start with this comment

It actually pains me to see how stupid some people are... even if your number are correct they are definitely PURELY theoretical without accounting for the amount of energy needed to put into the system in order to split the ridiculously polar H2O molecule
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      05-20-2011, 03:01 PM   #54
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$35K -$7.5K eco credit (if exists) = $27.5K which is equivalent to Volt, Leaf territory.

For a "citycar" going to/from work this is not a "toy for the rich", but a very economical primary car.
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      05-26-2011, 12:39 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The hint is in the name 'citycar', forget about think of this car as anything else, it's for tootling around town/city and nothing more. The 100 mile range basically means you can either travel up to that distance if you are going to stay over in order to recharge it's batteries or up to half of that range on a return trip.

Frankly £30k for this is mental, a toy for the filthy rich to make them feel like they are doing their bit towards the planet. Now if BMW put the technology of their i8 into a saloon instead of a sportscar then I will sit up and listen because without the ability to charge on the move the uses for electric cars are very limited to the majority.
not as mental as the MSRP on any S model Audi...and the pure stupidity of the RS price tags.
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      05-27-2011, 09:22 PM   #56
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Petroleum-based fuels are going to remain the primary fuel for transportation for the next 30- 50 years, and probably longer. The reason is very simple; petrol-based fuels provide the least expensive and highest energy density of any available fuel source. This allows for the longest possible drive cycle between fuel stops of any fuel currently produced and available in the future. It was learned over 100 years ago when there were three primary fuel sources – gasoline, electricity, steam - (all at the time with little or no infrastructure in place to produce them) that gasoline was the best energy storage fuel type. Gasoline won out the battle and now has the most efficient production infrastructure behind it, making it the cheapest fuel to produce. Any other new type of fuel source, be it hydrogen or chemical battery, has to compete with the petroleum industry to make a more cost-efficient fuel, or an at-least-as-cost-efficient fuel as gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.

And jet fuel is where the rub is. Millions of people a day depend on jet aircraft for travel. Jets are highly efficient in moving goods and people far distances at a low cost. Jets are able to fly because they use a fuel type that has a very high energy storage to weight ratio. There is no alternative fuel source for jets that will come on line in the near future to replace jet fuel as there is for cars such as electricity. Electricity is only viable for cars because the limit of its energy storage for drive range (of 80 - 100 miles per fill up) is somewhat acceptable in most cases. Because there is no alternative fuel source for jets, aviation transportation will rely on petrol-based fuel for the next several decades.

Although governments can try to dictate the use of alternate fuels for automobiles (such as electricity), however because there are jets flying that have to rely on petrol-based fuels, the infrastructure that makes aviation fuel will remain in place and will provide the least-expensive, highest density fuel source for cars, which will continue to be the best economical choice for automobile companies to design their products around.
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      10-09-2011, 09:46 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The hint is in the name 'citycar', forget about think of this car as anything else, it's for tootling around town/city and nothing more. The 100 mile range basically means you can either travel up to that distance if you are going to stay over in order to recharge it's batteries or up to half of that range on a return trip.

Frankly £30k for this is mental, a toy for the filthy rich to make them feel like they are doing their bit towards the planet. Now if BMW put the technology of their i8 into a saloon instead of a sportscar then I will sit up and listen because without the ability to charge on the move the uses for electric cars are very limited to the majority.


There has been details released on the i3 that indicate it will come with an 'available' REx module that will allow the battery to charge while on the move. This means the range can be extended by a substantial amount by allowing the i3 to be used in a similar fashion to current petrol powered vehicles.
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      10-10-2011, 07:46 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taipei-TT View Post
Allow me to take a shot!

Electric cars are still good for people like you (and me) who still like a gasoline engine. Here's why:
1. Allow manufacturers to meet emissions targets and offer high consumption, high fun vehicles. I know you will say they are forced to do this. However, you will still benefit if the technology evolves to where cars are truly sustainable. And yes, I agree that this generation of electric cars are not. Electricity still needs to be made, batteries created and disposed of, etc. However, most engineers and business managers rightly point out this is a necessary technological and cultural step forward into a new and unknown technology.

2. Cars with electric motors have better acceleration, and theoretically, could be used for a more balanced car as the technology matures. Tesla hints at this potential, as done the i8 and the Audi e-tron. Are these applications ready to kill off today's refined internal combustion engines? Nope. Will they? I suspect so. So as auto enthusiasts, we should not resist change!

3. Finally, early adopters who wear their green values on their sleeves will buy these cars. Not only will they create a market for them, they will also live through the inevitable teething problems. (Check out the Leaf turtle stories!) You and I are not forced to buy these cars. But one day, we might choose one as the tech gets better!

And on the price, I think that is a pretty sweet price.
Respect.....
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      10-10-2011, 08:18 AM   #59
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LMAO... Please do you're own research before trying to debunk my ideas. My professor is the head scientist for exxon-mobil in their quest for an efficient and cheap fuel cell that can be used by the general population. I've had tons of conversations with him about this.

Hydrogen in gas form DOES have an energy density of 120 MJ/kg. BUT that is in the gas form, do you know how much volume one 1kg of the least dense element on the planet is? ALOT! So, in order to be able to hold enough hydrogen in a car, it needs to be compressed into a liquid form (compressed=explosive when there's an accident).

When hydrogen is liquified it only has a energy density of 9 MJ/L which is nothing compared to gasoline at 31 MJ/L (translation= you need more than 3 times as much liquid hydrogen to get the same amount of usable energy out as gasoline to power a car). Other energy densities for example are: methanol 16 MJ/L and ethanol 21 MJ/L. FINALLY, when hydrogen is compressed, it's energy density is further reduced to 4.7 MJ/L (or ~7 times less energy per liter of gasoline).

SO, in summary, hydrogen won't work for cars. It may work for a power source for much bigger things, but cars are way too small.

BMW scrapped their hydrogen project, it was just a marketing strategy to show how BMW is really technologically advanced. They don't think hydrogen is the future


wow it is so funny that people think they know what they are talking about on this forum. This is you now:
+1

Hydrogen may be a fuel of distant future, once we find a way to very efficiently harness solar power or miraculously come up with viable fusion technology... then we can hydrolyze water to our heart's content without having to worry about the relatively pitiful efficiency of it.

There are many researchers working on metal hydrides and other storage systems that are not pure hydrogen. However, the penalty you pay with these types are in weight because a large portion of the storage medium is not hydrogen. However, these material can theoretically give a higher energy density.

Also, if we get to point where we have a lot of excess energy (pipe dream), we can generate hydrogen and then use it to hydrogenate CO2 to create methane and other hydrocarbons. We can actually do this now, it just horribly inefficient because hydrogen is expensive to make and you have to force things in an energetically unfavorable direction.

Hydrogen from fossil fuels is reasonable, but then you still have the fossil fuel issues to deal with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENINTY View Post

And jet fuel is where the rub is. Millions of people a day depend on jet aircraft for travel. Jets are highly efficient in moving goods and people far distances at a low cost. Jets are able to fly because they use a fuel type that has a very high energy storage to weight ratio. There is no alternative fuel source for jets that will come on line in the near future to replace jet fuel as there is for cars such as electricity. Electricity is only viable for cars because the limit of its energy storage for drive range (of 80 - 100 miles per fill up) is somewhat acceptable in most cases. Because there is no alternative fuel source for jets, aviation transportation will rely on petrol-based fuel for the next several decades.

Although governments can try to dictate the use of alternate fuels for automobiles (such as electricity), however because there are jets flying that have to rely on petrol-based fuels, the infrastructure that makes aviation fuel will remain in place and will provide the least-expensive, highest density fuel source for cars, which will continue to be the best economical choice for automobile companies to design their products around.
That's partially true, but you can generate renewable biofuels for using as jet fuel. Lufthansa has been flying biofuel on a dedicated route and plane for about 6 months and 500+ flights.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...695981186.html

So even though you need a high energy fuel, it can be relatively green.
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      10-13-2011, 05:38 PM   #60
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What is the REx module? Like a small gasoline generator?

Also, hydrogen is no more a source of energy than batteries- it's an energy storage medium, and not a very efficient one for a car.

Making H2 or charging a battery both start with electricity. A good electrolysis process is between 50-80% efficient. We'll be kind and call it 75% efficient. Liquifying 1kg of H2 takes the energy equivelent of about 1/3 kg of H2, so now we have 50% of the energy we started with. H2 isn't suitable for use in pipelines, so it'll have to be moved around in ENORMOUS trucks, since the tanks need to be so huge. These will be hydrogen powered trucks, so lets say we have about 40% of the initial energy once it reaches the fuel station. Hydrogen is kept liquid by boiling it off. It's also the smallest molecule, so it tends to leak. A big industrial, stationary tank might lose 1-3% per day...a smaller car tank might be more like 5%. So, figure that by the time we're ready to use the hydrogen, we have about 33% of the energy we started with.

Now we run it through a fuel cell. They're about 50% efficient (not to mention EXPENSIVE- exotic materials), so by the time we're ready to feed electricty to the motor we have 17.5% of energy we started with.

Now lets look at electric. Power grid losses are about 7%, so our charger has 93% to work with. Figure a 12% loss in the charger, so we're looking at 82% remaining. The battery is 85% efficienct at charging and discharging. .82*.85*.85= 59%

17.5% efficient vs. 59% efficient. The future indeed. Even if my estimates are off slightly, these two systems are nowhere remotely close to each other in efficiency. My transportation and handling charges involve a lot of guess work, but hydrogen is already behind batteries after merely producing and liquifying it. Figure batteries are about 300% as efficient as H2.

The ONLY advantages of H2 are it's much quicker to refuel, and for now the tanks have better energy density, although that advantage is shrinking fast.

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      10-14-2011, 12:07 PM   #61
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That rendering looks great. I like the look of the car (for the type of car it is). I doubt the price will actually be 35 though. I'm thinking more like 40-45, but it would sell like hotcakes at 35 with that mileage.
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      12-13-2011, 02:23 AM   #62
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ok i don`t want to sound to optimistic but i recently read a interesting piece about cold fusion reactor.
http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2...ed-in-bologna/
theres a a smaller version of 50 kw or so...look it up on google..... i say that when this technology is perfected in the coming years they could build a smaller version of it for usage as a power source for electric car...
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      12-14-2011, 01:28 PM   #63
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You couldnt pay me to drive that ugly piece of junk.
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      12-14-2011, 07:23 PM   #64
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I wonder if the Federal Tax Credit will still be available when the car comes out ..
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