[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

The difference is actually $14,600. You have to compare to the X5 50e, not the base spec 40i. This price difference would be much more palatable if the iX qualified for the $7,500 federal tax credit which, next year, can be taken at the point of purchase.

You presume all things are equal but they are not. EVs have an expensive battery pack that t ICE cars don't need, in addition to two drive motors (front and rear). Compare all of that added cost to that of a single ICE and you can see how it starts to add up. Due to this reality, one will always pay more for EVs without as many amenities and luxuries as ICE vehicles of the same price.

I disagree. A PHEV or hybrid is an entirely different species, and personally, something I would never want. When you look at other automaker straight ICE vs. BEV offerings, the difference is $5K to $10K. Similarly, a BMW ICE to BEV comparably equipped is $20K.

[VirtualGuitars]

I can’t believe this thread is still going. There’s no comparison between the BMW iX and the Tesla Model X. One of them is awesome and the other is total crap. You choose!

[exxxviii]

I wish this forum was capable of objective conversations about the iX and Tesla without devolving down the emotional path. I am auto enthusiast and auto industry guy, and this is hugely intriguing to me. I like seeing how Tesla's moves impact other stuff. I do not worship or hate Tesla and try respond to Tesla posts without the vitriol.

Here are some radical data points: Tesla is the industry gold standard for conquest and retention; Tesla is selling the #1 car in the world; Tesla makes more profit on a BEV than anyone else (probably more profitable than ICE too); Tesla Model X is outselling the iX by 2:1; the Tesla Model Y price cuts really did impact BMW iX sales; Tesla Model X price cuts will probably have a massive impact on the iX; Tesla long ago fixed most of the pile-on stuff that people frequently regurgitate; Tesla really has revolutionized a great deal about automotive user experience, design, manufacturing, and consumer experience. There, done!

I have no interest in a Model X, and I do not like Tesla's minimalist design philosophy. There are many table stakes features that Tesla eschews, like blind spot, rear cross traffic, surround view, HUD, phone projection, etc. I think the iX is radically better for my preferences. But there is a significant buying population that craves the Y and the X, and yes they are choosing them instead of the iX.

This price cut is very significant, and the childish Tesla jabs are anti-intellectual. The market leader is dramatically undercutting everyone else. I am eager to watch how the GV70, Lyriq, iX, EQS SUV, A8 E-Tron are affected.

[darylp310]

Tesla Model X was my number one choice before I found the iX. If it wasn’t for the $7,500 lease credit and more competitive price I probably would have pulled the trigger on the Tesla. After reading these forums and owning an iX for 6 months I’m now aware of build quality and other issues, but your average buyer would have no idea. They will just look at the price of two EVs that are similar in spec and buy the cheaper one. I do feel the iX and Model X are roughly equivalent with pros and cons to each. But this massive price cut is an aggressive move. Very curious to see if Model X sales pick up over the coming months or if BMW counters with some pricing strategy to maintain competitiveness.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I wish this forum was capable of objective conversations about the iX and Tesla without devolving down the emotional path. I am auto enthusiast and auto industry guy, and this is hugely intriguing to me. I like seeing how Tesla's moves impact other stuff. I do not worship or hate Tesla and try respond to Tesla posts without the vitriol.

It is very much capable of being objective when it comes to Tesla. You find the jabs childish because you don't agree with them and for some reason are still giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are led by some group of strategists that are ten moves ahead of us all. They aren't.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Tesla makes more profit on a BEV than anyone else (probably more profitable than ICE too);

That coin has two sides and you are turning a blind eye to the one you don't like. The positive is that it highlights that there is demand for their vehicles. That's good for them. The flip side is that by its very nature that means they are overpriced vehicles, or put another, harsher way, cheaply built given their price point. If BMW marked up the MSRP of the iX to be sold for say 200k USD, the same would be true for it. The way I look at that is that they are doing the equivalent of adding a dealer markup over MSRP for as long as they can sell at that price. Paying 60k for something that should be sold to you for 40k (allowing for a normal amount of margin) is not good for you. Many people in the car industry will tell you to never pay over MSRP for a daily driven, mass produced vehicle. To me, the same logic applies to an inflated MSRP in the case of a manufacturer selling to you direct. If it feels like a 40k product compared to others in the industry, you shouldn't pay 60k for it.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Tesla long ago fixed most of the pile-on stuff that people frequently regurgitate

Can you elaborate on what specifically you are talking about? What did they actually fix that people keep bringing up?

The most common one people bring up, build quality, is still a huge issue for them even though I've seen many people comment that "they've gotten better". They haven't. Feel free to lookup that out of spec detailing video about a new model X we posted in a thread a few weeks ago.

As a personal anectode, I have yet to see a single model X in person that has both the driver and passenger side door handles aligned. Some people have one side that aligns, but not both. I'm not talking about inspecting them with a ruler, just a visual from 5 feet away. Perhaps our cold weather here has some unforseen side effect on that alignment, or maybe my expectation of matching the build quality/fit/finish of a Honda Odyssey is too high.(for those unfamiliar with the Odyssey, it has the front and rear door handles close together, but not touching like the ModelX, but they always look perfectly aligned)

Originally Posted by exxxviii

This price cut is very significant, and the childish Tesla jabs are anti-intellectual. The market leader is dramatically undercutting everyone else. I am eager to watch how the GV70, Lyriq, iX, EQS SUV, A8 E-Tron are affected.

The price cuts are not some strategic plan to undercut competition. They are to drive sales of an ageing model than needs all the help it can get and is a "strategy" that every company in existence has used. When your hardware store liquidates some BBQ that didn't sell well over the summer, it isn't implementing a strategic plan to undercut competition, it just wants to get rid of what they didn't expect that they couldn't sell. Same here.

It will surely get people to buy more of them , the group of people who just couldn't afford it, who at the lower price point and gov tax incentive can justify it. They did the same with the model 3 and Y at the end of last year as sales slumped. It is a Band-Aid solution. It will work for a bit, but like every parent has seen with their young kids, one day you put that miracle Band-Aid on that fixed everything when they were younger and your toddler looks at you in disbelief as he realises it didn't do anything for their pain when they are really hurt.

[akin67]

Regardless of the reason behind Tesla's price cuts or their relative competitiveness with the BMW. From a consumer price point Tesla's price cuts are great for all EV buyers. I am no fan of current Tesla vehicles, but I love that they are constantly placing pricing pressure on other EV manufacturers.

[KRS_SN]

There are the buyers who buy because something is expensive and premium and the buyers who buy because something is cheap.
Every other house in my street has a Tesla a model 3 lr or y or x so what..I have an ix with all options and It's a premium car and there are less of them around. It probably depreciates less than a tesla if long term view is considered...what's not to like

[ppagiga]

Model X 121k to 80k, Jan 1 to now.

[Road Trip]

Count me in as another who is not interested in a Tesla at any price. I know some are super fans (my daughter is loving her second one and last week’s 3 model refresh might have them getting their # 3 in the spring).

But how does one say “NO THANKS” politely for while it does have it attributes, if it had ten more than it now does, for me still, I would remain not even remotely interested.

Cars are a passion, e.g., on # 55 now (and not one was flipped); cars are not an appliance I drive.

Yet, to each their own.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I disagree. A PHEV or hybrid is an entirely different species, and personally, something I would never want. When you look at other automaker straight ICE vs. BEV offerings, the difference is $5K to $10K. Similarly, a BMW ICE to BEV comparably equipped is $20K.

You are ignoring the comparisons that you don't like. Comparisons only work if they are apples-to-apples. Yours is apples-to-oranges. When I bought my iX I was comparing prices to Tesla and other EV brands for the same class of vehicle. I was not comparing the price to ICE vehicles of the same brand—such a comparison is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I wish this forum was capable of objective conversations about the iX and Tesla without devolving down the emotional path. I am auto enthusiast and auto industry guy, and this is hugely intriguing to me. I like seeing how Tesla's moves impact other stuff. I do not worship or hate Tesla and try respond to Tesla posts without the vitriol.

I think it's more that you dislike criticisms of Tesla. Many of us here (myself included) came from the Tesla world and couldn't stand the terrible build quality, non-stop service visits, lame implementations of basic features, etc.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Here are some radical data points: Tesla is the industry gold standard for conquest and retention; Tesla is selling the #1 car in the world; Tesla makes more profit on a BEV than anyone else (probably more profitable than ICE too); Tesla Model X is outselling the iX by 2:1; the Tesla Model Y price cuts really did impact BMW iX sales; Tesla Model X price cuts will probably have a massive impact on the iX; Tesla long ago fixed most of the pile-on stuff that people frequently regurgitate; Tesla really has revolutionized a great deal about automotive user experience, design, manufacturing, and consumer experience. There, done!

Why would I, as a consumer, care about any of the things you mentioned? When I'm looking for the best car for my money, why do I care about the company's profit margin? Which, by the way, is only 18% based on their last quarterly report and in-line with ICE industry average. Nothing special.

Similarly, why do I as a consumer comparing vehicles care about how well one model is selling versus another? The Toyota Camry was the #1 selling car when I bought my Tesla. Tesla also was not profitable and was barely shipping any vehicles. Using your logic I should have bought a Camry.

You talk like a Tesla fanboy who drank all the Koolaid. Only fanboys or stockholders care about the things you cite. Only Tesla fanboys fight over who is bigger, badder, and better and fanboys can only cite corporate metrics because the cars are actually sh!t.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I have no interest in a Model X, and I do not like Tesla's minimalist design philosophy. There are many table stakes features that Tesla eschews, like blind spot, rear cross traffic, surround view, HUD, phone projection, etc. I think the iX is radically better for my preferences. But there is a significant buying population that craves the Y and the X, and yes they are choosing them instead of the iX.

Again, good for them but why should I care what someone else is doing? I'm buying the car for myself and my family. Not for someone else. And I judge according to my criteria. Not someone else's.

More people are choosing Hyundais over Teslas across the globe, should that sway my car buying decisions?

Originally Posted by exxxviii

This price cut is very significant, and the childish Tesla jabs are anti-intellectual. The market leader is dramatically undercutting everyone else. I am eager to watch how the GV70, Lyriq, iX, EQS SUV, A8 E-Tron are affected.

Citing corporate performance doesn't make you an intellectual. It makes you a fanboy. Here's something intellectual for you to chew on: Buy the stock, not the car.

Companies lower prices only when the product isn't selling. Elon Musk didn't wake up one day wanting to leave $20k on the table with every sale, did he?

I dislike Tesla as a company. I detest Elon Musk as a human being. I think Tesla's products are overhyped, overpriced, built like hot garbage, and their customer service is at the bottom of industry rankings because Tesla's corporate culture is a dumpster fire.

I own a BMW for the above reasons and more. I have nothing good to say about Tesla because it puts its customers' lives in danger, takes payment for features that don't exist and will likely never exist, and builds a subpar car by almost any metric.

Teslas should be priced less than comparable BMW EVs because Teslas are inferior cars.

[ppagiga]

It’s funny to me that people talk about the Tesla price cuts, still, as if they are a good thing. They are not. By any measure. And they aren’t doing it by choice, to be clear. It is out of necessity. Same necessity that has made the ix much cheaper yoy - demand has waned, price needs to be lower to clear these vehicles

[Barry123]

I would not accept another Tesla if they offered to give it to me for free. Dealing with their horrific customer service is not worth the aggravation.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by Barry123

I would not accept another Tesla if they offered to give it to me for free. Dealing with their horrific customer service is not worth the aggravation.

I would accept a free Tesla but only if they also paid the tax and registration

I was one of the earliest and staunchest of Tesla advocates over 10 years ago. I was the first in my area to own a Tesla. I started and still manage a Tesla group with over 5,000 members. I was right there with the most ardent of fanboys.

Today I own a BMW EV and would not touch a Tesla unless it hit me. My sister bought a VW ID.4 because Tesla would not let her use Carplay. My dad is very interested in buying the new Equinox EV that GM is launching later this year. In my family alone Tesla lost 3 sales and all because of choices Tesla made.

Owning a Tesla is like suffering death by a thousand cuts. Something no Camry owner ever had to experience.

[mfdutra]

I find it hilarious seeing drivers struggling to park their brand-new 100k Teslas aligned with the spot markings. I've had surround view on my cars for ~10 years now. Then we hear from the same people that Tesla tech is awesome. I don't get it.

I used to have a 2019 X in the house. Comparing it with the iX is a joke. The only thing I miss is the super chargers. Everything else was good riddance.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

I think it's more that you dislike criticisms of Tesla. Many of us here (myself included) came from the Tesla world and couldn't stand the terrible build quality, non-stop service visits, lame implementations of basic features, etc...

There is a ton there... more than is worth attempting to respond to. Maybe this... My last 2 BMW were 7 Series. They were so bad, that I stepped away from the brand and swore it off for a very long time. My parents had 7 BMWs between them and most of my close friends had at least a couple. I moderated a couple BMW forums and was an expert in the mechanicals and electronics of a couple generations of the cars. For at least 20 years, BMWs were horrifically poorly engineered cars. They handle and look great, but they were designed to be maintenance time bombs. I do not know if they are better now. I do not irrationally hate BMW, even though I know they have been far worse than Tesla ever was. I am coming back in to BMW eyes wide open on a 3-year lease. If this one is OK, maybe I will keep it longer or get another. If it is the same as it ever was, I will move on after this lease is up.

It is the irrational and non-factual Tesla stuff that degrades the forum. Want to talk dumpster park fire, look at GM and the Lyriq. I really hope they work it out, because I wanted a Lyriq, but holy cow. They are looking like they could be least as bad, maybe worse, than Tesla ever was.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

There is a ton there... more than is worth attempting to respond to. Maybe this... My last 2 BMW were 7 Series. They were so bad, that I stepped away from the brand and swore it off for a very long time. My parents had 7 BMWs between them and most of my close friends had at least a couple. I moderated a couple BMW forums and was an expert in the mechanicals and electronics of a couple generations of the cars. For at least 20 years, BMWs were horrifically poorly engineered cars. They handle and look great, but they were designed to be maintenance time bombs. I do not know if they are better now.

iX is my first BMW purchase. I've had it 8 months and it's been in service only once for the airbag recall. By this same time owning a Model S, I'd already had my rear motor replaced twice and the car in service for build quality issues at least 5 times, including the interior headliner literally peeling off.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I do not irrationally hate BMW... It is the irrational and non-factual Tesla stuff that degrades the forum. Want to talk dumpster park fire, look at GM and the Lyriq. I really hope they work it out, because I wanted a Lyriq, but holy cow. They are looking like they could be least as bad, maybe worse, than Tesla ever was.

Fortunately, my dislike of Tesla and its slipshod products is totally rational and based on 9 years of product ownership. Not only that, but I see issues with the new cars first hand through my 5,000 member Tesla group. At least for the first year of ownership, my BMW experience has been 1,000 times better than my Tesla experience.

[Barry123]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

I was one of the earliest and staunchest of Tesla advocates over 10 years ago. I was the first in my area to own a Tesla.

I was the same way. Bought my MS in 2015 and was a fanboy at first, and then grew to hate the company. Fanboy soured about a year later when someone hit me and the car was in the shop for 4 months for a rear quarter panel. Then there were lots of interim minor issues that never went smoothly the first time (mobile service brings wrong part, etc.), and the final straw was 6 months out of service for an air shock replacement.

I still have my MS 1:18 model on a coffee table. I was debating selling it or hitting it with a sledge hammer. It's still on the table as a reminder - never again.

And like you, I took great pleasure in talking a friend out of buying a Tesla.

The sociopath in charge sure knows how to alienate customers.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

It is the irrational and non-factual Tesla stuff that degrades the forum.

If anyone posts untrue negative things about them, do feel free to point them out.

What I find is that it is the opposite; people tend to often post untrue positive things about them and when I know they are untrue, I know I feel compelled to point them out. Many people repeat things they have read/heard without validating or being critical and I don't like how they get away with BSing everyone.

[ppagiga]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

If anyone posts untrue negative things about them, do feel free to point them out.

What I find is that it is the opposite; people tend to often post untrue positive things about them and when I know they are untrue, I know I feel compelled to point them out. Many people repeat things they have read/heard without validating or being critical and I don't like how they get away with BSing everyone.

This 1000%. It’s ingrained in the average driver, as it is in the average investor.

[KRS_SN]

My friend bought a model s for 80k in 2018. I sat in it and was so underwhelmed. Could forgive the build quality and cheap plastics but the phantom braking I couldn't. It was bordering on dangerous.
He still raves about how he's had 60k miles of free motoring though he crawls along free superchargers and car is worth 35k now. He used to have a Toyota aygo before the S so reference points are not great.
Teslas sell as my friend is the average guy. Once you take a sip of the good you can't go back.

[mfdutra]

Fanboys normalizing phantom braking is just completely absurd. The technology is evolving, yada yada. My old Acura MDX with adaptive cruise control worked just fine and never slammed on the brakes.

To be fair, my iX slammed on the brakes a couple days ago. I think I entered my garage a bit faster than the computers liked. The thing wasn't happy and stopped instantly. But I guess I deserved it.

My Model X, oh god. That thing would slam the brakes out of nothing, with no car anywhere to be seen and nothing but open road ahead. The first couple times, your heart goes through your mouth.

[ilya4min]

I actually really respect Tesla for what they've accomplished. They've pretty much defined what most things EV aught to be: sportscar, luxury sedan, compact sedan, small and large SUVs, semitruck, charging network, home energy storage - they are still the gold standard that everyone compares to.

I did a test drive for Model X today, out of curiosity and to check what an 80K reference SUV feels like. Model X certainly has a lot going for it:
- Faster than even iX M60
- Towing package from the factory, no aftermarket add-ons
- Very spacious interior, thanks to the huge windshield
- Falcon wing doors, while weird, have their utility
- 6 and 7 seater options
- Tons of space in the back, and in the front
- Cool and future-proof displays in both the front and the back
- Reassurance that you won't be left behind with useful software updates for years

At first, I was really impressed by FSD beta. It worked absolutely great and navigated me from the dealership to the highway completely autonomously, and on the highway prevented me from sliding off the road as I was testing acceleration. BUT.. Just to suddenly start failing. I barely caught it when It tried to confidently turn left on a red light. Suddenly all my excitement for this tech evaporated. It failed to take a couple more turns, at which point I took over and didn't let it control any more intersections. In the city traffic, I noticed that it braked super-hard every other light, as if the car could only see 50 feet ahead, and traffic stopped on an intersection was often a surprise to it.

At that point it became clear to me that the notorious minimalism has its flaws. Having a radar in front of the car is nice.

This was a refreshed Model X, and I certainly noticed more things missing, or not on par with the iX:
- Basic controls: They certainly went too far with the whole touch screen thing. Turn signals are virtual buttons; gear shifter is on the touch screen; mirror, steering wheel, wiper controls are all hidden behind a couple of clicks in menus. Basically, an untrained person wouldn't be able to jump in and drive this thing safely.
- Interior materials: I like the wood, but seats are nowhere as nice as BMW's SensaTec. Not to mention Amido leather - that's next level.
- Suspension: I was shocked how bad the ride quality was over imperfect road. This rides significantly worse than any other luxury SUV I've tried, even the iX without Air Suspension. Adjusting air suspension didn't help.
- Airplay: while the onboard OS is certainly adequate, and maps are great, some tasks such as playing music are still much easier to start from the phone. The touch screen is not that easy to operate, especially its far corners where Music UI is.
- Lease terms: I know BMW is subsidizing the MF, but Tesla is not even trying to play ball, and is keeping the $7500 government rebate on leased vehicles. Plus you can't buy out the lease. They seem to think that leasing me a car is a personal favor.

All in all, even after the huge price drop on Model X, iX is still a clear favorite for me. Tesla had its head start by creating an amazing package nearly a decade ago. It was way ahead of its time, and still is, in many aspects. But the OG car manufacturers have been catching up, and aren't shy to lean into their strengths whenever they could.

In the end, the consumer wins. Tesla has developed a lot of brand recognition and will continue to sell well. BMW and others will likely be forced soon to produce EVs at pricing equivalent to similar ICE counterparts. The future is bright!