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      01-27-2014, 06:26 PM   #1
GeorgeJ.
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How to take an i3 (REX) road trip

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I am a long time BMW driver and have always had small powerful BMW's with manual gearboxes. The i3 is nearly opposite what I have always sought though it is truly intriguing. I drove one yesterday at Peter Pan BMW in San Mateo and was impressed by the quickness, feel, and unique operation. I like small cars and at nearly 15 inches shorter than my 135i it is a true city car (I live in San Francisco). That said I am afraid I may be too anxious of a battery watcher to make this work. I plug in my phone often and become nervous when it drops to 30%.

Given the regenerative braking I imagine one could drive the 200 miles from Tahoe to San Francisco on a single charge though getting there would be a challenge. I am wondering if one could set out for Tahoe with a REX i3 and run the generator from the beginning and stopping three or four times and refilling the tiny gas tank. I was told that this was possible by the salesman though I have heard conflicting reports. Can one of the better informed weigh in on this. thx
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      01-28-2014, 12:55 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeJ. View Post
I am a long time BMW driver and have always had small powerful BMW's with manual gearboxes. The i3 is nearly opposite what I have always sought though it is truly intriguing. I drove one yesterday at Peter Pan BMW in San Mateo and was impressed by the quickness, feel, and unique operation. I like small cars and at nearly 15 inches shorter than my 135i it is a true city car (I live in San Francisco). That said I am afraid I may be too anxious of a battery watcher to make this work. I plug in my phone often and become nervous when it drops to 30%.

Given the regenerative braking I imagine one could drive the 200 miles from Tahoe to San Francisco on a single charge though getting there would be a challenge. I am wondering if one could set out for Tahoe with a REX i3 and run the generator from the beginning and stopping three or four times and refilling the tiny gas tank. I was told that this was possible by the salesman though I have heard conflicting reports. Can one of the better informed weigh in on this. thx
Hi George-

There is a forum devoted exclusively to the i3 (www.mybmwi3.com) that includes posts from actual i3 owners (in Europe) that you might find useful.
There are several discussions there about range.

From everything I've read there and elsewhere, you would never make it to SF from Tahoe or to Tahoe from SF without charging along the way unless you have the REx model. Even with the REx, it would work slightly differently from how you describe it. In the US, the gas generator motor on the REx will be prohibited from turning on until the battery has reached the point where it only has roughly 5% of its charge remaining. Just how long you can drive until that level of discharge is reached seems still to be a matter of great debate. BMW is saying you ought to get 80 to 90 miles on the full battery, but users say that is optimistic and in any event will be reduced by the extent to which you are less than a perfect eco driver (i.e, you like to drive fast, you like to use the heater, you are driving up big hills a lot, etc., etc.).

Once the REx's motorcycle motor does kick in, it is apparently only able to keep the battery at the 5% charge level, not recharge it past that. The additional range you get from the REx is estimated by BMW to be about 80 miles to 90 miles (by US law it has to be no more than the range from the battery alone). And that again will depend on how much you are drawing on the electricity to do tax in things like going up big hills, driving fast, heating the seats, etc.

So to do a 200 mile drive from SF to Tahoe or Tahoe to SF, under the best of conditions you would need to be sure the car was 100% charged before you left and that the REx's gas tank was totally full, and then you would still need to refill the gas once along the way. Which could be done at a gas station, or could be done from a small gas can that you keep in the rear of the car (if you're brave enough to do that.)

In any event. it's totally doable -- and will cost you less than it would in an ICE vehicle. Might save you more than enough to pay for lift tickets and more.
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      01-28-2014, 09:50 PM   #3
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There may be some tweaks before officially released for US distribution, but the number I'd heard on the REx turn on was at about 18% and that, unlike elsewhere, you will not be able to override when that occurs to better manage your overall progress. Batteries do not like to be deep discharged, so that is about where things like to stay as a minimum for maximum longevity.

There have been some stories about people trying longer trips, and one critical thing to keep in mind is the current drain from the battery...driving up a hill at full speed with the heater on will be drawing more power than the REx can provide, and the vehicle will either slow down, or you'd have to stop and let the battery charge up a bit before continuing. Running along on a relatively flat road, it should be able to produce enough current to keep up, but it will have very little in excess to actually improve the charge, just maintain it.

If you're lucky, someone will put a DC fast charging station where you can access it along the way, otherwise, it will be a long time before you can continue. BTW, if you want DC fast charging, you must order that at the time you select your options...I'm told it would be difficult or very expensive to retrofit, if possible at all.
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      02-02-2014, 08:42 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiburonh View Post
Hi George-

There is a forum devoted exclusively to the i3 (www.mybmwi3.com) that includes posts from actual i3 owners (in Europe) that you might find useful.
There are several discussions there about range.

From everything I've read there and elsewhere, you would never make it to SF from Tahoe or to Tahoe from SF without charging along the way unless you have the REx model. Even with the REx, it would work slightly differently from how you describe it. In the US, the gas generator motor on the REx will be prohibited from turning on until the battery has reached the point where it only has roughly 5% of its charge remaining. Just how long you can drive until that level of discharge is reached seems still to be a matter of great debate. BMW is saying you ought to get 80 to 90 miles on the full battery, but users say that is optimistic and in any event will be reduced by the extent to which you are less than a perfect eco driver (i.e, you like to drive fast, you like to use the heater, you are driving up big hills a lot, etc., etc.).

Once the REx's motorcycle motor does kick in, it is apparently only able to keep the battery at the 5% charge level, not recharge it past that. The additional range you get from the REx is estimated by BMW to be about 80 miles to 90 miles (by US law it has to be no more than the range from the battery alone). And that again will depend on how much you are drawing on the electricity to do tax in things like going up big hills, driving fast, heating the seats, etc.

So to do a 200 mile drive from SF to Tahoe or Tahoe to SF, under the best of conditions you would need to be sure the car was 100% charged before you left and that the REx's gas tank was totally full, and then you would still need to refill the gas once along the way. Which could be done at a gas station, or could be done from a small gas can that you keep in the rear of the car (if you're brave enough to do that.)

In any event. it's totally doable -- and will cost you less than it would in an ICE vehicle. Might save you more than enough to pay for lift tickets and more.
Not sure where you came up with that; it is totally inaccurate. There is no such law. Case in point, the Chevrolet Volt: 40 mile battery range 300 mile gas generator range. i3 REX system is designed to get the back home when the battery is depleted.

OP, if you want a plug-in EV with gas generator range extension to get you to Tahoe, the Chevrolet Volt is the ideal car for your needs, the BMW i3 is not. If you have badge anxiety driving a Chevy, wait until the Cadillac ELR comes out in a few months. Or a Tesla (you'll have to charge it when you get to Tahoe so you can get back to SF).
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      02-02-2014, 09:46 PM   #5
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The deal with BMW and when you can engage the REx depends on the ability to use the HOV lanes in certain states based solely on being an electric or not and a single passenger. So, to retain that capability, you can't manage when the REx turns on as you could be running it while in the HOV lanes, and that negates the electric only provisions of how the law is written. It would be much more useful to be able to run the REx say when on the highway at speed even with a full battery, and then run around in the city in stop and go while on full electric, but while you can do that in other parts of the world with the i3, you can't in the USA because of the laws involved, and their desire to make it use the HOV lanes to commute. There may be a software tweak to override that, but it will not be an approved mod in the USA. As it has been reported, the battery reserve has to drop to something around 18% before you can activate the REx in the USA. Elsewhere, you can turn it on any time you think it may help your situation.
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      02-03-2014, 02:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Not sure where you came up with that; it is totally inaccurate. There is no such law. Case in point, the Chevrolet Volt: 40 mile battery range 300 mile gas generator range. i3 REX system is designed to get the back home when the battery is depleted.

OP, if you want a plug-in EV with gas generator range extension to get you to Tahoe, the Chevrolet Volt is the ideal car for your needs, the BMW i3 is not. If you have badge anxiety driving a Chevy, wait until the Cadillac ELR comes out in a few months. Or a Tesla (you'll have to charge it when you get to Tahoe so you can get back to SF).
Efthreeroh, I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The law that applies to the i3 comes from CARB (California Air Resources Board, the governing body that sets the pollution rules for vehicles not just in California but also in many other states). Last year they (apparently largely at the initiative of BMW and principally to cover the i3) created a new category of vehicle, the BEVx vehicle. Which is a different category from what the Volt is( the Volt is a TZEV)

Summarizing from the lengthy 112-page regulation, 2012 Amendments to the Zero Emission Vehicle Regulations, the BEVx definition says (among other criteria):

The vehicle must have a rated all-electric range of at least 75 miles (higher than the 50 miles required of a zero-emission vehicle);
The auxiliary power unit must provide range less than, or at most equal to, that battery range;
The APU must not be capable of switching on until the battery charge has been depleted;
The vehicle must meet "super ultra low emission vehicle" (SULEV) requirements; and
The APU and all associated fuel systems must comply with zero evaporative emissions requirements
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      02-03-2014, 06:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Not sure where you came up with that; it is totally inaccurate. There is no such law. Case in point, the Chevrolet Volt: 40 mile battery range 300 mile gas generator range. i3 REX system is designed to get the back home when the battery is depleted.

OP, if you want a plug-in EV with gas generator range extension to get you to Tahoe, the Chevrolet Volt is the ideal car for your needs, the BMW i3 is not. If you have badge anxiety driving a Chevy, wait until the Cadillac ELR comes out in a few months. Or a Tesla (you'll have to charge it when you get to Tahoe so you can get back to SF).
I do have badge anxiety plus I have been a pretty loyal BMW owner since my first in 1975. I like the Cadillac styling (a bit flashy), however it is much too big and the bloat detracts from it's performance relative to the Volt. Tesla also much to big though one of the better designs to come down the road in years.

I am (just) ok with the exterior of the i3, though I love it's very city car proportions (15 inches shorter than my 135), cool show car interior, and the driving dynamics. Given the light weight the BEV i3 feels quick and nimble and fun to squirt through traffic in. Even at speed on the freeway it felt stable and more than adequately quick. My biggest issue is range and having OCD about trying to plug in everywhere. The extra weight of the REX i3 (on paper) slows it considerably so real comparisons will be illuminating. I still feel I may not be ready to cope with the world of EV.
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      02-03-2014, 08:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiburonh View Post
Efthreeroh, I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The law that applies to the i3 comes from CARB (California Air Resources Board, the governing body that sets the pollution rules for vehicles not just in California but also in many other states). Last year they (apparently largely at the initiative of BMW and principally to cover the i3) created a new category of vehicle, the BEVx vehicle. Which is a different category from what the Volt is( the Volt is a TZEV)

Summarizing from the lengthy 112-page regulation, 2012 Amendments to the Zero Emission Vehicle Regulations, the BEVx definition says (among other criteria):

The vehicle must have a rated all-electric range of at least 75 miles (higher than the 50 miles required of a zero-emission vehicle);
The auxiliary power unit must provide range less than, or at most equal to, that battery range;
The APU must not be capable of switching on until the battery charge has been depleted;
The vehicle must meet "super ultra low emission vehicle" (SULEV) requirements; and
The APU and all associated fuel systems must comply with zero evaporative emissions requirements
Nice try. CARB law is not US Federal regulation.
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      02-03-2014, 11:31 PM   #9
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Nice try. CARB law is not US Federal regulation.
You said there was no such law in the US, but there clearly is. And the CARB rules have been fully embraces by several other states (including New York and even your apparent home state of Maryland). The CARB rules are the standards that the manufacturers most care about.

BMW wants the i3 to be treated differently from the Volt, and has gone to great lengths to persuade CARB to create this new category of BEVx. By getting significantly more range on the battery alone than the Volt, and by being at the same limited to getting significantly less range on the gas motor than the Volt, the i3 should be a significantly greener car and thus should be treated differently -- or so goes BMW's argument anyway.

Last edited by tiburonh; 02-03-2014 at 11:51 PM..
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      02-04-2014, 05:44 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiburonh View Post
You said there was no such law in the US, but there clearly is. And the CARB rules have been fully embraces by several other states (including New York and even your apparent home state of Maryland). The CARB rules are the standards that the manufacturers most care about.

BMW wants the i3 to be treated differently from the Volt, and has gone to great lengths to persuade CARB to create this new category of BEVx. By getting significantly more range on the battery alone than the Volt, and by being at the same limited to getting significantly less range on the gas motor than the Volt, the i3 should be a significantly greener car and thus should be treated differently -- or so goes BMW's argument anyway.
Okay so you want to play the game of semantics, fine. However, you said "by US Law", which means the Federal Code of U.S. Regulations. What you really cited was a California State law, which constitutionally has no effect at the Federal level, regardless of how many other States in the U.S. decide to adopt similar legislation. In reference to your statement I said there is no such law; there is none in the Federal Code, my statement is accurate. Sorry.

Had you said "By State law of California" that would have been accurate. And finally, if there is such a law in California, it was written around the design of the car, rather than the design of the car influenced by adherence to the law. Meaning, that in the case of the U.S. Federal law regarding the tax break given to consumers who buy EVs, the maximum tax break of $7,500 is applicable to those vehicles that have at a minimum battery size of 16KwH. The Volt is one such design, as is the Nissan Leaf; the Tesla S meets the requirement as well. I doubt BMW designed the i3, which is a car intended for world-wide distribution, was specifically influenced by a CARB emissions law. Your statement implied that the design of the i3 was influenced by the CARB law, which by your own admission above, it was not.
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      02-04-2014, 07:40 AM   #11
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CARB enters every manufacturer's decision and I'd bet nearly single handedly drives decisions on green cars. Seven states use it by default and skipping CA sales would be like ignoring many whole countries.
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      02-04-2014, 07:36 PM   #12
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On of the advantages of the i3 REx acquiring the BEVx designation is that it will be treated as a zero emission vehicle in many states. I live in NJ and zero emission cars (Tesla, LEAF, etc) are tax exempt so you save ~$3,500 on an i3 in sales tax. However a Volt isn't zero emission so you have to pay sales tax on it. The BEVx designation for the i3 REx means there is no sales tax on it either.
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      02-05-2014, 05:25 AM   #13
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No vehicle produces zero emissions; it defies the laws of physics.
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      02-06-2014, 12:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
No vehicle produces zero emissions; it defies the laws of physics.
While for practical purposes this is true, however if you charged off the grid exclusively, such as a personal photovoltaic array, then it would be pretty much zero emissions. At least from the time of delivery.

The Moses Lake carbon fiber factory runs on hydro power and the production facility runs on wind (I've read) though many materials required 'other' energy and carbon resources to procure. Pretty impressive nonetheless.

This thread started with the question of extended distance driving. In Europe it seems one can control the REX auxiliary motor so one might reasonably travel with eighty mile pit stops for gas fill ups. The CARB legislation makes that kind of travel much more tenuous by taking away that level of control. The unfortunate result for many such as me is that I will continue opting for full gas guzzling beasts rather than wading in to the fun realm of the efficiency game.

No question if I could drive day to day on full electric AND have the occasional need to drive more or less indefinitely with a gas or diesel generator I would. Bureaucrats win environment loses.
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      02-07-2014, 07:50 AM   #15
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No vehicle produces zero emissions; it defies the laws of physics.
OK we'll use zero tailpipe emissions so nobody gets confused.
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      02-07-2014, 12:17 PM   #16
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OK we'll use zero tailpipe emissions so nobody gets confused.
I guess CARB will rewrite the law then. LOL.
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      02-16-2014, 09:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by GeorgeJ. View Post
I do have badge anxiety plus I have been a pretty loyal BMW owner since my first in 1975. I like the Cadillac styling (a bit flashy), however it is much too big and the bloat detracts from it's performance relative to the Volt. Tesla also much to big though one of the better designs to come down the road in years.

I am (just) ok with the exterior of the i3, though I love it's very city car proportions (15 inches shorter than my 135), cool show car interior, and the driving dynamics. Given the light weight the BEV i3 feels quick and nimble and fun to squirt through traffic in. Even at speed on the freeway it felt stable and more than adequately quick. My biggest issue is range and having OCD about trying to plug in everywhere. The extra weight of the REX i3 (on paper) slows it considerably so real comparisons will be illuminating. I still feel I may not be ready to cope with the world of EV.
George have you test driven the Volt? I know you are a BMW guy, but you might be surprised. I was impressed enough to sell my E39 M5 and get one. My daily commute is 36 miles round trip, and over 18k miles about 86% of my driving is on the battery (73 gallons or so of gas used to date). That includes two or three out of town trips. Keep in mind that most EVs have a lot of the basic EV benefits (smooth, quiet, torquey, etc.). I think cars like the i3 and (obviously) the Tesla take this to another level, but the Volt is no slouch.
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      02-16-2014, 06:58 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
George have you test driven the Volt? I know you are a BMW guy, but you might be surprised. I was impressed enough to sell my E39 M5 and get one. My daily commute is 36 miles round trip, and over 18k miles about 86% of my driving is on the battery (73 gallons or so of gas used to date). That includes two or three out of town trips. Keep in mind that most EVs have a lot of the basic EV benefits (smooth, quiet, torquey, etc.). I think cars like the i3 and (obviously) the Tesla take this to another level, but the Volt is no slouch.
I have really considered the i3 because I am fascinated with what has been done in developing this car from the start as a new approach. I live in San Francisco where parking is at a premium and the compact proportions are a great plus.

While I am a bit of a BMW fan I have been impressed with the Volt from the first one I saw. I wish BMW had taken an approach that was more akin to this for the REX version and not been so caught up in qualifying for the right HOV sticker in California. All that said I am glad that Chevy has come out with such a great car in the Volt.
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      02-16-2014, 08:12 PM   #19
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Every vehicle design is a compromise. If the things you value aren't in the scope of the vehicle, it, obviously, won't work for you. With any EV, it's also a tradeoff on size, weight, and overall range...add more batteries, adds more weight which decreases overall range gains until it ends up being no gain at all. Personally, for the characteristics BMW choose to optimize, I think the i3 is a good vehicle, but will not be suitable for an only vehicle unless you are a real homebody, and never stray far from home in a car, or need to carry more 'stuff'. But, for what it was designed, efficient running around on trips within its range, it works, probably better than most of the others out there - if the compromises coincide with your needs.

I think there are enough people around that will like it for it to be a success.

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