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      09-23-2013, 07:43 PM   #1
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I've been trying to make sense of it since the debut of the i8 and the i3, but no matter how hard I try, I can't.

This is the first time in my life I've seen BMW go to such great lengths to market a subset of vehicles, lengths I believe will dilute the BMW brand itself, and irreparably harm their debut of an efficiency line of vehicles.

I will start with the simplest of examples: why a gorgeously designed, $140,000 car that looks like a freakin batmobile needs blue accents to signify efficiency like the blue ring around the Toyota logo of a Prius is beyond me.

M cars have ducts and grills and spoilers which all point to some functional use. Are they all necessary? Of course not, but they at least imply a functional use in the design that's born from the soul of the car itself.

Bright blue lines and bright blue stitching. All I can do is shake my head in shame.

Tesla's wild success is mostly due to the fact that nothing about the car touts it's electronicness. It's a beautiful, luxury car that's comfortable, well designed, an equipped with all the features that buyers in the market want. Perhaps the only main element of the car that touts it's efficient standpoint is the huge screen in the dash--a testament to how technologically motivated and modern the car is from the inside out.

The i8 on the other hand--blue accents on the grill (which by the looks of it, I'm not sure if it functions as much of a grill), the door, the rear, the stitching, the dash... the car is screaming "look at me, I'm efficient!" a move that seems cliche, unoriginal, cheap, gimmicky, and not at all BMW.

I haven't even gotten started on the i3. The car bears more in resemblance to a Prius and Leaf than it does any car BMW has previously made. From the company that brought you the Isetta and the new age of Mini, you'd think they'd know how to design a small, mega city car that didn't fall back on... for lack of a better term, ugliness.

The inverted kink of the rear window, the inescapability of two town and blue accents. There were many elements of the i3 concept that worked due to the car's simplicity that met lines, rubber and plastic on the production line and ended up looking, well, cheap, uninspired, and like the product of a sub-premiere auto manufacturer trying to make a car that made the statement: efficiency!

Why did BMW choose the leaf route? the prius route? Why not the Tesla route, and create gorgeous cars that screamed beauty, elegance, and power fueled by technology?

I don't mean to be another poster that's making a rant, much like those on apple forums who bemoaned the arrival of iOS7. It's not merely the look that bothers me here, not just the design, it's the philosophy behind it, and the integrity of the brand behind this philosophy (to which I have been a loyal admirer since my pre teen year).

Time will tell, and bets are I'll be proven wrong by the sales numbers of these machines. But what seems to be uninspiring performance figures, coupled, with mediocre design (gorgeous design trumped by ridiculous blue accents that are found in nearly every trim combination for the i8)... it seems like a recipe put together by a man pretending to be the chef who's cooking I've admired my entire life.

It's a shame.
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      09-23-2013, 08:03 PM   #2
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You can order the i8 with gray accents.

This seems like it would alleviate most of your concern?

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      09-23-2013, 08:18 PM   #3
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You can order the i8 with gray accents.

This seems like it would alleviate most of your concern?

Unless I am mistaken only a few colors allow you to order with gray accents.


But that's a small fraction of my point. It's about the emphasis of marketing rather than the emphasis on making an incredible car.
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      09-23-2013, 09:27 PM   #4
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I don't know man.

I think that they have made an incredible car. They are marketing to go along with it but I don't see how that detracts from the car.

The blue accents are all part of the styling of the car, not the marketing. Like you said, i8 looks like the batmobile.

To me it looks like the cars of the future, which I dreamed of as a kid (not that I'm grown up these days) who was into Star Trek and sci-fi movies... I like the styling, blue accents and all.

So much has gone into this car that is functional yet distinctly unique (styling, manufacture process, CFRP, etc.), it would be a disservice for it to look like a normal car.

I have stated this over and over and it doesn't get old, but I think the Tesla Model S is butt-ugly. It looks like Hyundai or a Kia to me. Actually I was behind one on the road and was wondering if it was a new Kia until I drove up to it and saw that it was in fact a Tesla.

And I don't agree with you regarding the performance. According to BMW, the i8 has performance on par with an M3. That's pretty awesome for a first-generation ground-up electric/hybrid car. It's not about the numbers. This car has usable real-world performance.

I also respect how BMW has gone to great lengths to manufacture their own CFRP, partnered with the Moses Lake facility which runs on hydro power and are basically producing their own carbon fiber just for BMW, which BMW then presses into body panels.

They are able to paint pieces separately now and have stated the most energy-hungry process of the auto-assembly line (paint) is taking 25% of the energy it used to with the BMWi vehicles.

They're recycling CF scraps and using in other parts of the vehicles such as the door sills.

I am regurgitating a bunch of stuff I've seen in the many recent videos and interviews posted, and to be honest I am impressed and blown away at the dedication that BMW has thrown at making this about efficiency and sustainability from the core all the way to the finished product.

And this is coming from someone who couldn't care less about all the green hype. I mean, I bought an X6M, it's a beast of an SUV (SAV if we're talking about marketing!), nothing green about it!

But the philosophy of BMWi commands respect for their dedication to doing this all the right way. And I'm all about doing things the right way. If you're gonna do something, do it right.

I believe (just my opinion) BMW wanted to differentiate the cars from other cars much in the same way they have differentiated the entire philosophy and manufacturing process from any other...

So to celebrate that, I'm cool with blue accents. I like the logo, the kidney grilles, and the minor touches on the interior where the accents have been placed.
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      09-24-2013, 11:16 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ddk632 View Post
I don't know man.

I think that they have made an incredible car. They are marketing to go along with it but I don't see how that detracts from the car.

The blue accents are all part of the styling of the car, not the marketing. Like you said, i8 looks like the batmobile.

To me it looks like the cars of the future, which I dreamed of as a kid (not that I'm grown up these days) who was into Star Trek and sci-fi movies... I like the styling, blue accents and all.

So much has gone into this car that is functional yet distinctly unique (styling, manufacture process, CFRP, etc.), it would be a disservice for it to look like a normal car.

I have stated this over and over and it doesn't get old, but I think the Tesla Model S is butt-ugly. It looks like Hyundai or a Kia to me. Actually I was behind one on the road and was wondering if it was a new Kia until I drove up to it and saw that it was in fact a Tesla.

And I don't agree with you regarding the performance. According to BMW, the i8 has performance on par with an M3. That's pretty awesome for a first-generation ground-up electric/hybrid car. It's not about the numbers. This car has usable real-world performance.

I also respect how BMW has gone to great lengths to manufacture their own CFRP, partnered with the Moses Lake facility which runs on hydro power and are basically producing their own carbon fiber just for BMW, which BMW then presses into body panels.

They are able to paint pieces separately now and have stated the most energy-hungry process of the auto-assembly line (paint) is taking 25% of the energy it used to with the BMWi vehicles.

They're recycling CF scraps and using in other parts of the vehicles such as the door sills.

I am regurgitating a bunch of stuff I've seen in the many recent videos and interviews posted, and to be honest I am impressed and blown away at the dedication that BMW has thrown at making this about efficiency and sustainability from the core all the way to the finished product.

And this is coming from someone who couldn't care less about all the green hype. I mean, I bought an X6M, it's a beast of an SUV, nothing green about it!

But the philosophy of BMWi commands respect for their dedication to doing this all the right way. And I'm all about doing things the right way. If you're gonna do something, do it right.

I believe (just my opinion) BMW wanted to differentiate the cars from other cars much in the same way they have differentiated the entire philosophy and manufacturing process from any other...

So to celebrate that, I'm cool with blue accents. I like the logo, the kidney grilles, and the minor touches on the interior where the accents have been placed.
I'm with you on a lot of this, but there are certain things I can't get passed.

Teslas can go 300 miles on a charge. i3 comes in a single flavor that's all electric and that caps around 100 miles. i8 doesn't even come in an all electric form, theorhetically drops its mpg down to 45 when driven hard. Tesla doesn't factor gas into the equation, and manages to push it's car 0-60 in under 4 seconds. For a seven seater luxury full size car, that's pretty damn impressive. 4.5 seconds for a $140 grand super car, and the reaction is meh. These are the things that buyers at this price level are going to care about. If Tesla could do it without compromise, why couldn't BMW?

We'll agree to disagree on the blue. I find it to be a very surface level addition that only speaks to marketing, not function by any means, and that's what bothers me. The i8 is already so unique in its styling that blue accents aside, it still wouldn't look like a normal car.

I just see the debut of these cars as being 2 steps in the wrong direction, and that's what bothers me. I've been waiting to see a BMW super car since I was a teenager. An answer to the R8, the SLR, SLS, something. Anything. And then bring us a hybrid that performs reasonably well, that has bright blue all over it in the hopes that everyone realizes the car is about efficiency and forgives the lack of performance.
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      09-24-2013, 09:28 PM   #6
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For what it's worth, I'm buying a i8 for a couple of reasons. It's the closest thing we've gotten to a new M1 in over 30 years, it's the most technologically advanced BMW to date and probably will be for little while, and it's the first hybrid I'm actually interested in buying. The first one that isn't a limp-wristed, ground up eco box (Prius, Insight) or a half-assed conversion of an existing model that gives you 1-2mpg more for a 25-30% more money. I love the Tesla Model S, but I live in the middle of nowhere and the nearest "supercharger" station is over 500 miles away. An electric only vehicle just doesn't fit my location or life.

I would also love to see a return of the M1, but BMW have stated on repeat occasions that it just isn't in the cards right now. They're so busy increasing the volume of cars they produce that a niche, limited-production, hardcore super car doesn't make sense financially. Which is a shame. The bottom line shouldn't be the end all, be all of product development. Sometimes you just need to make something great people can look up to, like the R8, SLS, and SLR you mention.

I think it will probably end up being a second sports car for people that already have a "beast" in the garage. At least, that's what it is for me. 0-60 in 4.4, a long-distance/real world 40-50mpg, and the most futuristic looking thing of the road is enough.

I don't even mind the "no M versions of i cars" thing. They are separate sub-brands for very different purposes.

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      09-24-2013, 10:42 PM   #7
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+1 to everything @Carac said.

I don't have an i8 on order (yet) but I want one for the same reasons. The i8 is futuristic with real world usable performance.

@Carac is adding the i8 to an SLS - wow, nice combo man!
Mine would be added to my X6M.

To address your points though, @x5love,

Quote:
Originally Posted by x5love View Post
Teslas can go 300 miles on a charge. i3 comes in a single flavor that's all electric and that caps around 100 miles. i8 doesn't even come in an all electric form, theorhetically drops its mpg down to 45 when driven hard.
Agreed, as an EV the Tesla is the benchmark in terms of range as well as luxury and performance. The i3 is not a competitor so not worth noting; the i8 being a hybrid isn't exactly apples-to-apples either. As to the mpg going down when going hard, I am sure it's equivalent that the Tesla range is not 300 miles when driven hard. This would be logical in either case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x5love View Post
Tesla doesn't factor gas into the equation, and manages to push it's car 0-60 in under 4 seconds. For a seven seater luxury full size car, that's pretty damn impressive. 4.5 seconds for a $140 grand super car, and the reaction is meh.
Tesla Model S according to their own website has max 0-60 of 4.2; BMW i8 states 0-100 km/h in 4.4; that's 0-62.5mph, not 0-60; it's possible it may be 4.3 when converted to 0-60mph rather than 0-100km/h. Bottom line is, they aren't exactly worlds apart.

The R8 V8 is also in the same ballpark, by the way, 4.3 I think. I am not sure I'd call Tesla a 7-seater - it's a 5+2 and the +2 is not even comparable to the i8 +2 - it's smaller... surely it is nevertheless impressive, but again, not mind-blowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x5love View Post
These are the things that buyers at this price level are going to care about. If Tesla could do it without compromise, why couldn't BMW?
You have two people in this thread who do not care about those things enough to not buy the car. I don't think the price level has anything to do with it; in fact, it's quite the opposite.

At this price level, one's choices are fairly open, and one can take much into consideration beyond pure performance numbers. A GT-R will smoke almost anything on the road for less money than an i8, R8, SLS, any Maserati, etc. People still will buy a Maserati for the engine sound, looks, Italian character, etc.

Hell my X6M can smoke a Maserati but that doesn't make the Maserati a piece of crap. It's a beautiful car, but performs worse than many others in the price range. People still buy them in droves, especially here in South Florida.

Therefore I believe the uniqueness of the car, the styling, the overall package, and performance being in the relative ballpark, will all contribute to a buy decision on something like the i8. It's a purely emotional purchase. The fact that there's literally nothing on the road remotely resembling the i8 is currently a huge selling point. I believe the design is slightly ahead of its time, yet also perfectly timed nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x5love View Post
We'll agree to disagree on the blue. I find it to be a very surface level addition that only speaks to marketing, not function by any means, and that's what bothers me. The i8 is already so unique in its styling that blue accents aside, it still wouldn't look like a normal car.
Fair enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by x5love View Post
I just see the debut of these cars as being 2 steps in the wrong direction, and that's what bothers me. I've been waiting to see a BMW super car since I was a teenager. An answer to the R8, the SLR, SLS, something. Anything. And then bring us a hybrid that performs reasonably well, that has bright blue all over it in the hopes that everyone realizes the car is about efficiency and forgives the lack of performance.
I hear you man. This has not been in the BMW cards for quite some time. Once in a while BMW comes out with something truly spectacular. The 8-series, the Z8, and the i8 all come to mind.

Benz has always had a higher caliber of cars with the S/SL/CL600, the more recent iterations of those cars in AMG 65 versions with V12's that are hitting and exceeding the $200k mark, plus the SLS (not so outrageously priced when looking at the AMG range), and the SLR (one of the most beautiful, awesome cars to be made).

If BMW came out with an M7 with a twin-turbo V12 to top the 760Li for $200k, many posters on here would cry blasphemy. Benz has been doing it for years. That hasn't been the BMW way.

Same thing with a Supercar, sure there is pressure, but it hasn't been a core aspect of what BMW is about - BMW was (not sure if still is) The Sports Sedan - driving any mid-90's and early 2000's 3, 5, or 7 series was where it's at. And the M3 and M5. They were normal daily-driver cars that were the best handling of the bunch and extremely sporty. To a lesser extent they still are, although I wasn't impressed with the F30's handling.

So BMW has chosen to instead venture in a new direction rather than following down that path. I'm cool with that. Would love to see a BMW Supercar as well. However, for now, the i8 is a perfect example of a BMW "real-world" future sports car that will surely have competition in the future in this new sort of green sports car segment.

And if the emphasis is on lower weight, excellent handling, usable power, and gorgeous styling, I am all in on the i8.

To be honest with you, when the i8 concept was introduced, I thought it'll probably be in the $300k range, just from its looks. And as I've posted elsewhere, therein I think lies some of the problem. The look of the car screams exotic supercar, so people were expecting it to be everything to everyone, which it isn't.
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      09-25-2013, 11:42 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ddk632 View Post
+1 to everything @Carac said.

I don't have an i8 on order (yet) but I want one for the same reasons. The i8 is futuristic with real world usable performance.

@Carac is adding the i8 to an SLS - wow, nice combo man!
Mine would be added to my X6M.

To address your points though, @x5love,



Agreed, as an EV the Tesla is the benchmark in terms of range as well as luxury and performance. The i3 is not a competitor so not worth noting; the i8 being a hybrid isn't exactly apples-to-apples either. As to the mpg going down when going hard, I am sure it's equivalent that the Tesla range is not 300 miles when driven hard. This would be logical in either case.



Tesla Model S according to their own website has max 0-60 of 4.2; BMW i8 states 0-100 km/h in 4.4; that's 0-62.5mph, not 0-60; it's possible it may be 4.3 when converted to 0-60mph rather than 0-100km/h. Bottom line is, they aren't exactly worlds apart.

The R8 V8 is also in the same ballpark, by the way, 4.3 I think. I am not sure I'd call Tesla a 7-seater - it's a 5+2 and the +2 is not even comparable to the i8 +2 - it's smaller... surely it is nevertheless impressive, but again, not mind-blowing.



You have two people in this thread who do not care about those things enough to not buy the car. I don't think the price level has anything to do with it; in fact, it's quite the opposite.

At this price level, one's choices are fairly open, and one can take much into consideration beyond pure performance numbers. A GT-R will smoke almost anything on the road for less money than an i8, R8, SLS, any Maserati, etc. People still will buy a Maserati for the engine sound, looks, Italian character, etc.

Hell my X6M can smoke a Maserati but that doesn't make the Maserati a piece of crap. It's a beautiful car, but performs worse than many others in the price range. People still buy them in droves, especially here in South Florida.

Therefore I believe the uniqueness of the car, the styling, the overall package, and performance being in the relative ballpark, will all contribute to a buy decision on something like the i8. It's a purely emotional purchase. The fact that there's literally nothing on the road remotely resembling the i8 is currently a huge selling point. I believe the design is slightly ahead of its time, yet also perfectly timed nonetheless.



Fair enough



I hear you man. This has not been in the BMW cards for quite some time. Once in a while BMW comes out with something truly spectacular. The 8-series, the Z8, and the i8 all come to mind.

Benz has always had a higher caliber of cars with the S/SL/CL600, the more recent iterations of those cars in AMG 65 versions with V12's that are hitting and exceeding the $200k mark, plus the SLS (not so outrageously priced when looking at the AMG range), and the SLR (one of the most beautiful, awesome cars to be made).

If BMW came out with an M7 with a twin-turbo V12 to top the 760Li for $200k, many posters on here would cry blasphemy. Benz has been doing it for years. That hasn't been the BMW way.

Same thing with a Supercar, sure there is pressure, but it hasn't been a core aspect of what BMW is about - BMW was (not sure if still is) The Sports Sedan - driving any mid-90's and early 2000's 3, 5, or 7 series was where it's at. And the M3 and M5. They were normal daily-driver cars that were the best handling of the bunch and extremely sporty. To a lesser extent they still are, although I wasn't impressed with the F30's handling.

So BMW has chosen to instead venture in a new direction rather than following down that path. I'm cool with that. Would love to see a BMW Supercar as well. However, for now, the i8 is a perfect example of a BMW "real-world" future sports car that will surely have competition in the future in this new sort of green sports car segment.

And if the emphasis is on lower weight, excellent handling, usable power, and gorgeous styling, I am all in on the i8.

To be honest with you, when the i8 concept was introduced, I thought it'll probably be in the $300k range, just from its looks. And as I've posted elsewhere, therein I think lies some of the problem. The look of the car screams exotic supercar, so people were expecting it to be everything to everyone, which it isn't.
I agree with a ton of what you said.

I learned to drive on an E36 M3, and then drove an E53 with access to an E38 at times (more of a boat), and then finally had an E92 for several years.

There's nothing like the sports sedan that was the E36. The BMW of the 90s. These were good times.

You've made a solid argument for the i8, I appreciate absolutely everything you said, but there's still something I can't articulate about it that bothers me. When the Z8 was released, it was clear that every single little inch of the car was refined to be perfect, simple, well designed, gorgeous, and made a statement. Comparing the interiors of the Z8 and i8 demonstrate a very staunch difference in philosophy. Where the i8 tries to pass on some idea of the future, of technology, and loses refinement in the process, the Z8 was inch to inch pure BMW. Put together tightly and beautifully.

I think it's wonderful you're getting one. It's clear that the car is going to be a stunner and make you very happy.

Perhaps I need to wait to see it in person before concluding my thoughts, but on launch and marketing materials alone, it seems to be a different beast than the one I was expecting.
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      09-30-2013, 09:21 PM   #9
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For those in line for one, cannot wait to see pics when you share.

I've had this discussion many times before, and I shall lightly (and briefly) say it again: the i brand is in its own genre, and when we keep trying to FIT it into what we believe a supercar, a green car, a whatever-you-may car should be, we will always come up confounded. BMW isn't building these cars for practicality reasons. They are looking to create a new breed of models that don't fit any previous model we grew up on.

When you look at its specs, you see why you cannot categorize such a car. A 3 cylinder engine? That is no M3. 22 miles per electric charge? How can that even constitute it being a hybrid in the year 2014, not 1999? 0 to 60 in under 4.6? I bet they are under promising and will over deliver, just as Tesla did with their performance model plus (0 to 60 in 3.9, it isn't 4.2).

No one getting into this car is doing it for any of the above purposes. It stands for something larger. What that is, my friends, time will show us. For now, I look forward to seeing it in person and taking a drive in one.

This is BMW's accomplishment, and in time, we shall see what that truly is.
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