[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tommolog

Yes it will be popular but why would they make it standard when it can be optional? That makes no sense. There will be a lot of people that don't want it - thousands of them in fact, why would BMW wnat to lose those sales?

It's ridiculous to compare it to once-options like A/C because it's not something everybody wants. Personally I'll call it a plug in hybrid if it has the range extender, but I know others will want to use their own terminology. Many Volt owners take extreme offense if someone calls their car a hybrid, but in my eyes that's exactly what it is so that's what I'll call the REx i3. Hybrid isn't a dirty word so I don't know why people seem to have such aversion to it.

Yes, I believe the next gen i3 will indeed have a longer range, probably around what you guessed, but I believe they will still offer the range extender as an option. I don't think we'll see the range extenders leaving until we get consistent, year round ranges of 250mi or better. Either that or a healthy infrastructure of DC quick charge stations. DC QC can eliminate the range extender or need for long range batteries without a doubt, but we are many years away from an infrastructure that's robust enough to allow that to happen.

I know you are very passionate about the i3 (a good thing!); and I'm not trying to be a dick here. But I guess I missed your point then. What I don't understand is the need for this car. It has a theoretical range of somewhere between 80 and 100 miles per charge. It is targeted mainly for a city dweller; it's limited range makes that apparent. If you live in the city, my observations are: 1) most large cities have excellent mass-transit systems that eliminate the need for a personal car; 2) most city dwellers live in buildings that are not inductive to secure home charging an electric car; 3) if you live in a large city, and want to travel away from it you can only go 40 miles in the i3, which in some cities isn't very far.

So the i3 has an "optional" range extender, from what I read (I think from you actually, or Steve 26), that is meant to allow the owner to return home on a depleted battery and is it not necessarily designed for continuous gas-powered long distance travel (made obvious by the 3 gallon fuel capacity). If that is the case, then the Volt is the better choice IMO. The Volt targets a Suburbanite who does not have access to excellent mass-transit, can usually have a private secure location to charge the car, and has a range extender system that is truly designed to operate continuously as a power source for mobility. And the Volt is far less expensive.

A few months ago, with all the talk about how light the new construction techniques make the i3, I did a calculation of vehicle weight vs. range; it's posted here somewhere. My calculations determined that the Volt actually has a better range-to-weight ratio as compared to the i3 (when both cars are equipped with a range extender), which in my mind shows GM has developed a vehicle that is on the level or better of engineering with BMW (regardless of the use of CF). The Volt came to market in late 2010 with a MSRP lower than the i3 (when both equipped with a range extender).

The reason I get passionate about these things is most everyone here drinks the BMW engineering prowess Koolaid and refuses to acknowledge that the other 30 or so automobile manufacturers on the planet have as good, or in some cases, better engineering and manufacturing capabilities than BMW. BMW is excellent at self-promotion.

So from my read of the i3, its has some avant-garde styling and possibly innovative manufacturing (application) attributes, it is well packaged, but it performs on par or worse with the other vehicles in its class, is at least two years late to market, and is more expensive than the other vehicles in its class. I'm just not sure what the point is. The i3 is certainly not the "3-Series" of the EV class (i.e. the benchmark).

What I find really amusing is the recent posts about BMWs solar-powered home recharging station. I have to wonder if anyone considered that commuter cars are generally driven during the day to work, away from home and the solar station? Sure, the solar station can charge a bank of batteries during the day, then at night transfers the energy to the i3's battery. A lot of cost and infrastructure just to make a green point.

[jadnashuanh]

I live in a small city. We do have some public transport. It has a lot of holes in coverage, and in my case, busses only go by at about 1.5 hour intervals...so, public transit is a last ditch choice! 90% of my drives are less than 20-miles RT. If I want to go to Boston, the nearest large city, I'd be near the maximum RT range of the stock vehicle - I could take my 'real' car, but parking for the smaller one is a factor, too. With the REX, the extra range, while maybe never needed, is there should I need to detour around an accident, or sit in the vehicle stopped in rush hour traffic, which in the summer, can be a real bear if you can't run the a/c! The REX would eliminate those concerns.

As I said on another post, BMW monitored the daily use of the MiniE customers, and found the average use was a 30-mile RT commute. Having 100 miles widens that margin by a lot. So, it also makes it useful when the city is your destination from the suburbs. FWIW, I would move before I'd commute into BOston from here every day, but still go there on occasion for recreation, shopping, museums, theater, etc, and the i3 should work out quite well (at least I'm hoping - won't know until I can actually sit in one and drive it!).

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I know you are very passionate about the i3 (a good thing!); and I'm not trying to be a dick here. But I guess I missed your point then. What I don't understand is the need for this car. It has a theoretical range of somewhere between 80 and 100 miles per charge. It is targeted mainly for a city dweller; it's limited range makes that apparent. If you live in the city, my observations are: 1) most large cities have excellent mass-transit systems that eliminate the need for a personal car; 2) most city dwellers live in buildings that are not inductive to secure home charging an electric car; 3) if you live in a large city, and want to travel away from it you can only go 40 miles in the i3, which in some cities isn't very far.

So the i3 has an "optional" range extender, from what I read (I think from you actually, or Steve 26), that is meant to allow the owner to return home on a depleted battery and is it not necessarily designed for continuous gas-powered long distance travel (made obvious by the 3 gallon fuel capacity). If that is the case, then the Volt is the better choice IMO. The Volt targets a Suburbanite who does not have access to excellent mass-transit, can usually have a private secure location to charge the car, and has a range extender system that is truly designed to operate continuously as a power source for mobility. And the Volt is far less expensive.

A few months ago, with all the talk about how light the new construction techniques make the i3, I did a calculation of vehicle weight vs. range; it's posted here somewhere. My calculations determined that the Volt actually has a better range-to-weight ratio as compared to the i3 (when both cars are equipped with a range extender), which in my mind shows GM has developed a vehicle that is on the level or better of engineering with BMW (regardless of the use of CF). The Volt came to market in late 2010 with a MSRP lower than the i3 (when both equipped with a range extender).

The reason I get passionate about these things is most everyone here drinks the BMW engineering prowess Koolaid and refuses to acknowledge that the other 30 or so automobile manufacturers on the planet have as good, or in some cases, better engineering and manufacturing capabilities than BMW. BMW is excellent at self-promotion.

So from my read of the i3, its has some avant-garde styling and possibly innovative manufacturing (application) attributes, it is well packaged, but it performs on par or worse with the other vehicles in its class, is at least two years late to market, and is more expensive than the other vehicles in its class. I'm just not sure what the point is. The i3 is certainly not the "3-Series" of the EV class (i.e. the benchmark).

What I find really amusing is the recent posts about BMWs solar-powered home recharging station. I have to wonder if anyone considered that commuter cars are generally driven during the day to work, away from home and the solar station? Sure, the solar station can charge a bank of batteries during the day, then at night transfers the energy to the i3's battery. A lot of cost and infrastructure just to make a green point.

The i3 is superior to the Volt in many respects, which justifies the price premium.

The i3 is:
Quicker than the volt. Better power to weight ratio than the Volt.

Gets better mi/kWh than the volt. (Pretty much guaranteed at this point)

More agile and responsive handling than the Volt.

Roomier inside than the Volt.

Has at least twice the EV range than the Volt. (What matters most to EV buyers anyways.

Has quick charging option, compared to the slow charger on the Volt.

Has far more exotic construction than the Volt with the CFRP.

Has LED headlights standard (US version)

Etc........

Different class of car in the opinion of most people.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

The i3 is superior to the Volt in many respects, which justifies the price premium.

The i3 is:
Quicker than the volt. Better power to weight ratio than the Volt.

Gets better mi/kWh than the volt. (Pretty much guaranteed at this point)

More agile and responsive handling than the Volt.

Roomier inside than the Volt.

Has at least twice the EV range than the Volt. (What matters most to EV buyers anyways.

Has quick charging option, compared to the slow charger on the Volt.

Has far more exotic construction than the Volt with the CFRP.

Has LED headlights standard (US version)

Etc........

Different class of car in the opinion of most people.

Funny how we compare 0-60 times on cars that are meant to conserve energy and save the planet. The Volt is about 1 second slower, that is THAT important? I've not driven the i3, nor probably have you. I've driven the Volt, you think because it is an American-made Chevrolet it handles poorly, I can assure you it does not; it has class-leading handling, braking and steering. Why does a city-car like the i3 need BMW-level of handling anyway (which from all reports I've read it doesn't). I've been driving a BMW 3-Series as a daily driver for the past 25 years, I'll contend I know a good handling car when I drive one.

As I said, despite its exotic construction, when compared to the Volt the i3 equipped with the optional range extender, the Volt beats the i3 in range vs. vehicle weight. The Volt offers twice the total range as the i3 range extender version when both are fully charged and fully fueled, and the volt weighs oly about 1,000 lbs. more than the i3.

Both EVs are really meant to charge overnight. The volt has 3 times the gas-mode range than the i3, so what does it matter if the i3 charges faster. If the average daily use of an EV matched to the 40 mile average daily driving habits of US citizens, the Volt has an adequate EV-only range for most people considering an EV.

LED headlights in a City car that travels on generally well-lit streets is that important and worth the $10K extra price? Okay..

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Funny how we compare 0-60 times on cars that are meant to conserve energy and save the planet. The Volt is about 1 second slower, that is THAT important? I've not driven the i3, nor probably have you. I've driven the Volt, you think because it is an American-made Chevrolet it handles poorly, I can assure you it does not; it has class-leading handling, braking and steering. Why does a city-car like the i3 need BMW-level of handling anyway (which from all reports I've read it doesn't). I've been driving a BMW 3-Series as a daily driver for the past 25 years, I'll contend I know a good handling car when I drive one.

As I said, despite its exotic construction, when compared to the Volt the i3 equipped with the optional range extender, the Volt beats the i3 in range vs. vehicle weight. The Volt offers twice the total range as the i3 range extender version when both are fully charged and fully fueled, and the volt weighs oly about 1,000 lbs. more than the i3.


Both EVs are really meant to charge overnight. The volt has 3 times the gas-mode range than the i3, so what does it matter if the i3 charges faster. If the average daily use of an EV matched to the 40 mile average daily driving habits of US citizens, the Volt has an adequate EV-only range for most people considering an EV.

LED headlights in a City car that travels on generally well-lit streets is that important and worth the $10K extra price? Okay..

You have to be joking when you say the Volt "only weighs 1000 more lbs than the i3"

Surely there is a emphasis on EV performance, as Volt owners like to brag about how much driving they can do without using a drop of gas. So in EV performance, the i3 simply trounces the Volt. This range per weight comparison you are making is not even a rational comparison to be making. Adding 10 additional gallons of fuel capacity, at less than 70lbs more, can get you tons of more range than a 2 gallon tank. So what? Its not like the engineers couldn't have put in more fuel capacity "if they wanted to." They intentionally kept the fuel capacity at around 2.5 gallons.

My point of view stems from the experience I have in test driving all these cars. I have driven and evaluated the Spark a few times, Volt, 500e, RAV4ev, Smart EV, Honda Fit EV, and Tesla S. (see my youtube 0-75mph acceleration run in the P85 Model S.) I have had record breaking fast (500-600hp) BMWs in the past. I currently have my M-Sport 335d which runs 12 second qtr miles also. So as much as I enjoy fast cars, I really love driving electric cars too for their own unique performance characteristics. A Volt is basically a 9 second 0-60mph car. Even my LEAF will beat the Volt up to 40mph easily. I thoroughly enjoy driving my LEAF. The instantaneous torque is addicting. I generally am leaving everyone behind effortlessly at 90% of the stoplights, etc. Sometimes I wish I just had a little more power, in which the i3 would fit the bill perfectly. Beyond any doubt, a 7 second i3 is substantially quicker than a 9 second 0-60mph Volt or my LEAF. There is no reason you can't have fun and have economy. Who said they have to be exclusive? I have burned the rubber off the tires on my LEAF in only 9000 miles. Yet, my equivalent MPGe is way over 100mpg on average when weighed against $4/gallon for fuel. My diesel can get 40mpg on the highway...but I am averaging 17mpg in town. The LEAF is at least 5x more efficient in town, driving both cars the same way. All of the last 7 BMWs I have had were equipped with HID lights, and the LEAF with LED. For many people, going back to regular headlights is hard to do afterwards. They just seem kind of primative. Just an opinion of course, shared by many. I have made 200 mile trips on a Saturday morning, using the 40-50kw DC charger on my LEAF. That is 10 times more powerful than the Volt charges at. So again...as an electric vehicle, the Volt has to many compromises. If you are interested in how wonderful a Volt is as a gas vehicle, there are so many other better choices out there.

Just to give you an idea of the efforless acceleration in an electric car, check out the video below. Although the Mustang isn't racing, it is amazing how quiet it is in the electric car to effortlessly pull away from normal traffic, while hearing their engines growl, (or ping) as they pull away from an intersection. Even if a gas engine car happens to beat you off the line, its kind of funny how hard they have to try to do it. I posted several other videos also with the same results.

[tommolog]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I know you are very passionate about the i3 (a good thing!); and I'm not trying to be a dick here. But I guess I missed your point then. What I don't understand is the need for this car. It has a theoretical range of somewhere between 80 and 100 miles per charge. It is targeted mainly for a city dweller; it's limited range makes that apparent. If you live in the city, my observations are: 1) most large cities have excellent mass-transit systems that eliminate the need for a personal car; 2) most city dwellers live in buildings that are not inductive to secure home charging an electric car; 3) if you live in a large city, and want to travel away from it you can only go 40 miles in the i3, which in some cities isn't very far.

So the i3 has an "optional" range extender, from what I read (I think from you actually, or Steve 26), that is meant to allow the owner to return home on a depleted battery and is it not necessarily designed for continuous gas-powered long distance travel (made obvious by the 3 gallon fuel capacity). If that is the case, then the Volt is the better choice IMO. The Volt targets a Suburbanite who does not have access to excellent mass-transit, can usually have a private secure location to charge the car, and has a range extender system that is truly designed to operate continuously as a power source for mobility. And the Volt is far less expensive.

A few months ago, with all the talk about how light the new construction techniques make the i3, I did a calculation of vehicle weight vs. range; it's posted here somewhere. My calculations determined that the Volt actually has a better range-to-weight ratio as compared to the i3 (when both cars are equipped with a range extender), which in my mind shows GM has developed a vehicle that is on the level or better of engineering with BMW (regardless of the use of CF). The Volt came to market in late 2010 with a MSRP lower than the i3 (when both equipped with a range extender).

The reason I get passionate about these things is most everyone here drinks the BMW engineering prowess Koolaid and refuses to acknowledge that the other 30 or so automobile manufacturers on the planet have as good, or in some cases, better engineering and manufacturing capabilities than BMW. BMW is excellent at self-promotion.

So from my read of the i3, its has some avant-garde styling and possibly innovative manufacturing (application) attributes, it is well packaged, but it performs on par or worse with the other vehicles in its class, is at least two years late to market, and is more expensive than the other vehicles in its class. I'm just not sure what the point is. The i3 is certainly not the "3-Series" of the EV class (i.e. the benchmark).

What I find really amusing is the recent posts about BMWs solar-powered home recharging station. I have to wonder if anyone considered that commuter cars are generally driven during the day to work, away from home and the solar station? Sure, the solar station can charge a bank of batteries during the day, then at night transfers the energy to the i3's battery. A lot of cost and infrastructure just to make a green point.

You don't need to qualify your comments by saying your "not being a dick", I never interpreted it that way. You have different opinions that's all. I'm not going to change your mind any more than you'll change mine but healthy discussions are what there forums are all about.

You touched a lot of topics let me try to offer my thoughts on some of them:

"What I don't understand is the need for this car."
I guess we don't need it any more than we need a 3-series or a Toyota Camry either yet they both sell very well and have lots of satisfied customers. You obviously don't like it but I can tell you that a lot of people do. I started an i3 blog about two years ago and have about 100,000 page views so far and the car isn't even for sale. I have had hundreds of people email and message me for information on it - believe me there are a lot people very excited about it. As for the 80 to 100 mile range, I've been driving EV's for the past 4 years now with about that same range and have driven them about 130,000 miles. I drive them over 30,000/yr and aren't a city dweller yet they work perfectly fine for me. They are actually best suited for people that live in the suburbs that outline cities and work, shop and dine in the cities in my opinion. Totally agree about living in a large city - use mass transportation. It's cheaper and more efficient. Join a car sharing service for the times you need a car.

"So the i3 has an "optional" range extender, from what I read (I think from you actually, or Steve 26), that is meant to allow the owner to return home on a depleted battery and is it not necessarily designed for continuous gas-powered long distance travel"

You are not correct about the functionality of the range extender though. It is plenty robust for continuous driving. You can certainly drive it hundreds of miles if you like, but you'll need to stop for gas every 70-80 miles or so. I expect you'll see proof of its capabilities soon from BMW. I have spoken to i3 program managers about this and they assured me the range extender is plenty powerful to maintain the cars charge for long journeys. Yes the Volt is less expensive and it should be. I happen to like the Volt very much and have personally "sold" about a dozen of them, however when you talk to Volt owners they almost all say they wish it had a greater range because they want to drive on electric even more. The i3 allows you to do that. It has an electric range that is more than double the Volt which will basically assure that most people that buy it, even with the range extender will do a very high percentage of their driving on electric.

I would need a whole post to go into the range to weight issue you brought up and I just don't have the time to explain how it's a flawed concept. I can say the energy consumed is the metric you really should be using. The volt needs 11kWh's of electricity to go 38 miles and the i3 will consume about 18kWh's to go about 85-90 miles. The i3 is drastically more efficient. In fact it will be the most efficient EV on the road when it launches.

Personally I don't dring the BMW cool-aid as you say. I've never even owned one before I leased the ActiveE. I love the i3 because of the technology in it. It's the first series production car that's entirely aluminum, CRFP & plastic, it's the fastest EV on the market besides Tesla which is much more expensive, it has electronics that just aren't available on any other EV including Tesla like brake assistant, adoptive cruise control and Traffic assistant. It has a Nav-connected range predictor (which is VERY important in an EV) that uses real time traffic conditions, temperature and topography to calculate remaining miles available and nobody else has anything like that. There are a lot of things to like about it which is why I do. You don't have to, that's cool, but it's just not realistic to say there's no need for this car, and people are just blinded by the shine of the roundel. That just isn't the case with the i3. It really is a groundbreaking vehicle.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

You have to be joking when you say the Volt "only weighs 1000 more lbs than the i3"

Surely there is a emphasis on EV performance, as Volt owners like to brag about how much driving they can do without using a drop of gas. So in EV performance, the i3 simply trounces the Volt. This range per weight comparison you are making is not even a rational comparison to be making. Adding 10 additional gallons of fuel capacity, at less than 70lbs more, can get you tons of more range than a 2 gallon tank. So what? Its not like the engineers couldn't have put in more fuel capacity "if they wanted to." They intentionally kept the fuel capacity at around 2.5 gallons.

My point of view stems from the experience I have in test driving all these cars. I have driven and evaluated the Spark a few times, Volt, 500e, RAV4ev, Smart EV, Honda Fit EV, and Tesla S. (see my youtube 0-75mph acceleration run in the P85 Model S.) I have had record breaking fast (500-600hp) BMWs in the past. I currently have my M-Sport 335d which runs 12 second qtr miles also. So as much as I enjoy fast cars, I really love driving electric cars too for their own unique performance characteristics. A Volt is basically a 9 second 0-60mph car. Even my LEAF will beat the Volt up to 40mph easily. I thoroughly enjoy driving my LEAF. The instantaneous torque is addicting. I generally am leaving everyone behind effortlessly at 90% of the stoplights, etc. Sometimes I wish I just had a little more power, in which the i3 would fit the bill perfectly. Beyond any doubt, a 7 second i3 is substantially quicker than a 9 second 0-60mph Volt or my LEAF. There is no reason you can't have fun and have economy. Who said they have to be exclusive? I have burned the rubber off the tires on my LEAF in only 9000 miles. Yet, my equivalent MPGe is way over 100mpg on average when weighed against $4/gallon for fuel. My diesel can get 40mpg on the highway...but I am averaging 17mpg in town. The LEAF is at least 5x more efficient in town, driving both cars the same way. All of the last 7 BMWs I have had were equipped with HID lights, and the LEAF with LED. For many people, going back to regular headlights is hard to do afterwards. They just seem kind of primative. Just an opinion of course, shared by many. I have made 200 mile trips on a Saturday morning, using the 40-50kw DC charger on my LEAF. That is 10 times more powerful than the Volt charges at. So again...as an electric vehicle, the Volt has to many compromises. If you are interested in how wonderful a Volt is as a gas vehicle, there are so many other better choices out there.

Just to give you an idea of the efforless acceleration in an electric car, check out the video below. Although the Mustang isn't racing, it is amazing how quiet it is in the electric car to effortlessly pull away from normal traffic, while hearing their engines growl, (or ping) as they pull away from an intersection. Even if a gas engine car happens to beat you off the line, its kind of funny how hard they have to try to do it. I posted several other videos also with the same results.

I'm not joking anymore than you are about bracket racing EVs against petrol fueled cars. So the Leaf has instantaneous torque and can beat some cars to 40 MPH. And you show videos of racing cars that may not even know you are racing them. A gas car will do 0-60 runs all day long, a EV will run out of fuel quite quickly. What if we look at 0-100 MPH? The results change, so who cares?

You can look at the i3 as being more efficient in energy use and I look at the Volt in overall range performance each car wins the competition. Does the average consumer car about efficiency of an EV or the range the car can provide before he starts walking?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tommolog

You don't need to qualify your comments by saying your "not being a dick", I never interpreted it that way. You have different opinions that's all. I'm not going to change your mind any more than you'll change mine but healthy discussions are what there forums are all about.

You touched a lot of topics let me try to offer my thoughts on some of them:

"What I don't understand is the need for this car."
I guess we don't need it any more than we need a 3-series or a Toyota Camry either yet they both sell very well and have lots of satisfied customers. You obviously don't like it but I can tell you that a lot of people do. I started an i3 blog about two years ago and have about 100,000 page views so far and the car isn't even for sale. I have had hundreds of people email and message me for information on it - believe me there are a lot people very excited about it. As for the 80 to 100 mile range, I've been driving EV's for the past 4 years now with about that same range and have driven them about 130,000 miles. I drive them over 30,000/yr and aren't a city dweller yet they work perfectly fine for me. They are actually best suited for people that live in the suburbs that outline cities and work, shop and dine in the cities in my opinion. Totally agree about living in a large city - use mass transportation. It's cheaper and more efficient. Join a car sharing service for the times you need a car.

"So the i3 has an "optional" range extender, from what I read (I think from you actually, or Steve 26), that is meant to allow the owner to return home on a depleted battery and is it not necessarily designed for continuous gas-powered long distance travel"

You are not correct about the functionality of the range extender though. It is plenty robust for continuous driving. You can certainly drive it hundreds of miles if you like, but you'll need to stop for gas every 70-80 miles or so. I expect you'll see proof of its capabilities soon from BMW. I have spoken to i3 program managers about this and they assured me the range extender is plenty powerful to maintain the cars charge for long journeys. Yes the Volt is less expensive and it should be. I happen to like the Volt very much and have personally "sold" about a dozen of them, however when you talk to Volt owners they almost all say they wish it had a greater range because they want to drive on electric even more. The i3 allows you to do that. It has an electric range that is more than double the Volt which will basically assure that most people that buy it, even with the range extender will do a very high percentage of their driving on electric.

I would need a whole post to go into the range to weight issue you brought up and I just don't have the time to explain how it's a flawed concept. I can say the energy consumed is the metric you really should be using. The volt needs 11kWh's of electricity to go 38 miles and the i3 will consume about 18kWh's to go about 85-90 miles. The i3 is drastically more efficient. In fact it will be the most efficient EV on the road when it launches.

Personally I don't dring the BMW cool-aid as you say. I've never even owned one before I leased the ActiveE. I love the i3 because of the technology in it. It's the first series production car that's entirely aluminum, CRFP & plastic, it's the fastest EV on the market besides Tesla which is much more expensive, it has electronics that just aren't available on any other EV including Tesla like brake assistant, adoptive cruise control and Traffic assistant. It has a Nav-connected range predictor (which is VERY important in an EV) that uses real time traffic conditions, temperature and topography to calculate remaining miles available and nobody else has anything like that. There are a lot of things to like about it which is why I do. You don't have to, that's cool, but it's just not realistic to say there's no need for this car, and people are just blinded by the shine of the roundel. That just isn't the case with the i3. It really is a groundbreaking vehicle.

Thanks for having a great discussion on this subject; it's why I come here to discuss cars with other car geeks (no disrespect intended).

I do need to tell you that I'm no stranger to the concept of electric vehicles. In the early 1970's, General Electric decided to get into the garden tractor business. and manufactured a garden tractor called the "Electrak". We had the E15 model (I still have it, defunct as it is). It was by far a better garden tractor than the gas-powered models of the early '70s. But it was range limited too, which killed it in the market place; GE sold it for just 3 years during the 1st gas-crisis. It could cut about 2.5 acres of lawn on a full charge (which was just enough for our home), but it had the mower deck out front (for easy maintenance) and had all sorts of electric (36V DC) ancillary equipment like a weed eater, chain saw, snow thrower, and welder.

So I ran some more numbers from the data you posted (when I have time I'll look for my range vs. weight calculations). So based on the efficiency ratios the Volt runs .29KW per mile and the i3 runs .21KW per mile; more efficient by 27%. BUT look at the weight of each vehicle. The published weight I could find on the Volt was 3,781 Lbs. The weight of the i3 I found was from BMW's press release and was 2,630 Lbs. The press release was not clear if the weight spec was for the EV version or the EV + range extender version. I'd suspect it was for the non-range extender version, so I threw in an estimated 120 pounds to i3 weight for the gas engine and generator (a pure guess). Comparing the weights of the two cars with comparably functioning drive trains (EV + extender) the 2,7500-pound (estimated) i3 is 27% lighter than the 3,781 pound Volt, so the percent-better efficiency of the i3 matches its percent-better weight advantage; 27% vs. 27%. Which makes me not see the great engineering feat the i3 is. Throw in the fact that the total range of the Volt is 380 miles vs. 160 miles for the i3, I view the Volt as the better engineered car that better fits the consumer's needs.

[tommolog]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Thanks for having a great discussion on this subject; it's why I come here to discuss cars with other car geeks (no disrespect intended).

I do need to tell you that I'm no stranger to the concept of electric vehicles. In the early 1970's, General Electric decided to get into the garden tractor business. and manufactured a garden tractor called the "Electrak". We had the E15 model (I still have it, defunct as it is). It was by far a better garden tractor than the gas-powered models of the early '70s. But it was range limited too, which killed it in the market place; GE sold it for just 3 years during the 1st gas-crisis. It could cut about 2.5 acres of lawn on a full charge (which was just enough for our home), but it had the mower deck out front (for easy maintenance) and had all sorts of electric (36V DC) ancillary equipment like a weed eater, chain saw, snow thrower, and welder.

So I ran some more numbers from the data you posted (when I have time I'll look for my range vs. weight calculations). So based on the efficiency ratios the Volt runs .29KW per mile and the i3 runs .21KW per mile; more efficient by 27%. BUT look at the weight of each vehicle. The published weight I could find on the Volt was 3,781 Lbs. The weight of the i3 I found was from BMW's press release and was 2,630 Lbs. The press release was not clear if the weight spec was for the EV version or the EV + range extender version. I'd suspect it was for the non-range extender version, so I threw in an estimated 120 pounds to i3 weight for the gas engine and generator (a pure guess). Comparing the weights of the two cars with comparably functioning drive trains (EV + extender) the 2,7500-pound (estimated) i3 is 27% lighter than the 3,781 pound Volt, so the percent-better efficiency of the i3 matches its percent-better weight advantage; 27% vs. 27%. Which makes me not see the great engineering feat the i3 is. Throw in the fact that the total range of the Volt is 380 miles vs. 160 miles for the i3, I view the Volt as the better engineered car that better fits the consumer's needs.

The i3's range extender adds a total of 330lbs so with the REx it is 2,960lbs. You need to realize that weight is only a part of the cars efficiency, and it seems like you are using weight as the sole metric. In stop and go low speed driving yes weight has a lot to do with efficiency and since BMW does envision a lot of the i3 customers to drive in city environments weight savings was a high priority. However the EPA ratings use a blend of city and highway driving to arrive at their efficiency ratings. Driving along at a constant 65 mph, weight has very little to do with efficiency. The cars drag coefficient is what is most important here. The Volt has a cd of .28 and the i3 is .29 so the Volt has a slightly better drag coefficient. The i3's short length and tall height make it difficult to be very aerodynamic although .29 is pretty good considering its odd shape. GM clearly saw the Volt as being more of a highway cruiser than BMW sees the i3 and they probably put more emphasis on the getting the cd down as low as possible because of this. In fact, the reason the original Volt concept that was scrapped and revised for the current production form was because they couldn't get the cd down low enough in the original concept (which everyone really loved).
If both cars were tested side by side in city environments with all the driving at lower speeds, stop and go, the i3 would probably be much more efficient then your calculations show and conversely if both cars were driven at a constant 70 mph the gap may close a bit. Weight is much more important for the i3 than it is for the Volt because of the driving environment it will be most likely used in.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tommolog

The i3's range extender adds a total of 330lbs so with the REx it is 2,960lbs. You need to realize that weight is only a part of the cars efficiency, and it seems like you are using weight as the sole metric. In stop and go low speed driving yes weight has a lot to do with efficiency and since BMW does envision a lot of the i3 customers to drive in city environments weight savings was a high priority. However the EPA ratings use a blend of city and highway driving to arrive at their efficiency ratings. Driving along at a constant 65 mph, weight has very little to do with efficiency. The cars drag coefficient is what is most important here. The Volt has a cd of .28 and the i3 is .29 so the Volt has a slightly better drag coefficient. The i3's short length and tall height make it difficult to be very aerodynamic although .29 is pretty good considering its odd shape. GM clearly saw the Volt as being more of a highway cruiser than BMW sees the i3 and they probably put more emphasis on the getting the cd down as low as possible because of this. In fact, the reason the original Volt concept that was scrapped and revised for the current production form was because they couldn't get the cd down low enough in the original concept (which everyone really loved).
If both cars were tested side by side in city environments with all the driving at lower speeds, stop and go, the i3 would probably be much more efficient then your calculations show and conversely if both cars were driven at a constant 70 mph the gap may close a bit. Weight is much more important for the i3 than it is for the Volt because of the driving environment it will be most likely used in.

Thanks, I do understand the physics. My calculations are based on the efficiency numbers you originally provided (however, I did see the same efficiency factor in my search for the i3's weight too, so your number for the i3 is at least accurate). I don't know through what test the efficiency numbers were derived, but I'll assume the testing methodology was the same for both cars and the efficiency factor is an "average". Assuming that is true, you now seem to trying to qualify your previous efficiency statements about the i3 by now considering weight into the evaluation and that the i3 being both 27% lighter and also 27% more efficient than the Volt is not coincidental. You seem to now be trying to say the i3 would be even more efficient than the Volt depending on driving environment (and intended use). My point is for the consumer using each car the same, the Volt provides 42% better total range with only a 27% weight penalty; to me that's pretty good engineering.

You state that GM's intent for the Volt was to be a "highway cruiser", but clearly that isn't the case. The Volt has a battery size that a) just meets the size limit to be eligible for the maximum US tax rebate of $7,500; and b) provide close to 40 miles on a charge, with 40 miles targeted as the national average for daily driving miles. It wouldn't make sense to design a drivetrain that achieves 40 miles EV range for a car intended to be most efficient during highway use.

I think both vehicles were designed with similar use in mind and the Volt offers a different, but just as valid, approach to solution; with the engineeing of both cars being quite advanced and well executed.

[hotrod182]

"My point is for the consumer using each car the same, the Volt provides 42% better total range with only a 27% weight penalty; to me that's pretty good engineering."


It's almost like you have no concept of physics or something. What does the comparable weights of the cars have to do with your range calculations?
So if the i3 held 8 more gallons (10.5 total), it could conceivably go 400 miles on petrol. Besides the tank (modern plastic tanks are very light), that extra 8 gallons of gas would weigh around a whopping 49lbs!!!

So even with 400 miles of fuel, the i3 is in a whole different ball park of weight compared to the Volt. Plus roomier inside, whole different ball park in acceleration. More efficient, better handling, etc, etc. Who are you trying to kid here? If we all wanted 400 mile fuel range as a priority, we would get a Prius over a Volt. A Prius gets almost a whopping 35% better fuel economy than the Volt. AND is more roomy. Must be a better engineered car! And a Plug in Prius can go about 11 miles compared to the Volt. But who cares about the 11 mile electric range when the Prius outshines the Volt in gas performance. Can you see the same useless argument applied there?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

"My point is for the consumer using each car the same, the Volt provides 42% better total range with only a 27% weight penalty; to me that's pretty good engineering."


It's almost like you have no concept of physics or something. What does the comparable weights of the cars have to do with your range calculations?
So if the i3 held 8 more gallons (10.5 total), it could conceivably go 400 miles on petrol. Besides the tank (modern plastic tanks are very light), that extra 8 gallons of gas would weigh around a whopping 49lbs!!!

So even with 400 miles of fuel, the i3 is in a whole different ball park of weight compared to the Volt. Plus roomier inside, whole different ball park in acceleration. More efficient, better handling, etc, etc. Who are you trying to kid here? If we all wanted 400 mile fuel range as a priority, we would get a Prius over a Volt. A Prius gets almost a whopping 35% better fuel economy than the Volt. AND is more roomy. Must be a better engineered car! And a Plug in Prius can go about 11 miles compared to the Volt. But who cares about the 11 mile electric range when the Prius outshines the Volt in gas performance. Can you see the same useless argument applied there?

So just to stir this back up. Here are quotes from a recent review of the i3 REX performance from The Telegraph....

"The news also coincides with an mediocre test-drive review of the range-extended i3 REX car by The Telegraph in which the reviewer complained that in range-extended mode, his loaner i3-REX slowed to just 44 mph on the motorway trying to climb a hill."

"As Chris Knapman reports, a recent test drive in the i3 REX from London to Maidstone and back left Knapman in trouble on the M20, a major UK motorway (freeway) stretching from London to the South East. Having used up the i3′s claimed 80 mile range in just 50 miles, Knapman’s loaner i3 switched on its 600cc gasoline range-extending engine.

Knapman says the i3 did return to more appropriate motorway speeds, but left him a little shaken. The i3′s range extender, he discovered, isn’t designed to power the i3 without assistance from car’s battery pack. As a BMW spokesman admitted, once the i3′s battery pack was depleted and the range extender was running “if you keep driving at 75-80 mph, it can’t maintain the charge,” meaning a slower top speed under certain situations.

The solution, says Knapman, is to engage the range-extending engine earlier in the trip, when there’s still substantial charge left in the battery pack.

But here’s what we don’t understand — and sadly with our limited time in the i3 so far, we can’t figure it out: the BMW i3 will quite happily run its battery pack down to empty, but the range-extender can be engaged at any time by the driver. If the battery pack gets too depleted, performance will suffer."

"It seems then that as long as you plan to do a trip longer than the i3′s all-electric range, and turn the range extender on early enough in your trip, there won’t be any impact on performance. But get caught short by a detour or a faulty charging station, and you may find yourself limping home."

So it is quite clear that the i3 REX system is designed to get the car back home and not to suffice as an alternate full-performance fuel source when the battery is depleted. Adding an additional 8 gallons of fuel capacity to the i3 does not make it equivalent to the usability that the Chevy Volt provides. So I'll stand by my statement that the Volt offers a better engineering solution for providing the consumer a more useable extended-range EV.