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      05-18-2016, 10:55 AM   #1
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BMW's i3 Electric Vehicle Can Suddenly Lose Power: U.S. Lawsuit

From Reuters:

"U.S. owner of a BMW i3 has filed a lawsuit claiming that the German automaker's electric vehicle can experience a sudden loss of power when a feature designed to nearly double its driving range is deployed.

The lawsuit, filed on Tuesday in Los Angeles federal court, seeks damages for i3 drivers nationwide and in California alone, or to force BMW to buy the vehicles back.

It focuses on "Range Extender," an optional i3 feature in which a 34-horsepower, two-cylinder gas engine switches on when the vehicle's battery runs low, boosting the advertised range to 150 miles (241 km) per charge from 81 miles.

According to the plaintiff Edo Tsoar, the i3's speed can plunge without warning if the vehicle is under a "significant load," including when it is filled with passengers or going uphill, when Range Extender kicks in.

He said this has happened to him "multiple" times, and that he now avoids driving farther than 80 miles.

The lawsuit also said drivers have told the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that the speed of their i3 vehicles fell by half in similar incidents, even under full throttle.

"Having a sudden and unexpected loss of power in a motor vehicle can result in a catastrophic situation," Tsoar's lawyer Jonathan Michaels said in a statement on Wednesday. "These cars are dangerous and should not be driven."

BMW's full name is Bayerische Motoren Werke AG. The company declined to comment.

The case is Tsoar v BMW of North America LLC, U.S. District Court, Central District of California, No. 16-03386."

(Reporting by Jonathan Stempel in New York; Additional reporting by Edward Taylor in Frankfurt; Editing by Bill Rigby)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bm...-idUSKCN0Y91WU
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      05-18-2016, 02:51 PM   #2
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I have an REX and have never experienced this.
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      05-18-2016, 02:52 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
I have an REX and have never experienced this.
First i heard of this as well. Wonder if anyone else has experienced this or just this one guy?
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      05-18-2016, 03:11 PM   #4
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It's not just one guy. Multiple people have reported it on the i3 FB group. It's pretty rare, but it does happen if circumstances all align.
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      05-18-2016, 03:13 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by muddtt
It's not just one guy. Multiple people have reported it on the i3 FB group. It's pretty rare, but it does happen if circumstances all align.
Checking it out. Thanks for the info
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      05-18-2016, 07:19 PM   #6
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Happened to me on an i3 extended test drive, and was the main reason I don't have one now. I was going up a hill and the i3 wouldn't go faster than about 20mph...
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      05-18-2016, 07:31 PM   #7
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      05-19-2016, 02:20 PM   #8
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This topic is old and they fixed the problem ages ago with an updated software.

Problem is not all cars have the updated software. At least that's what my dealer told me about that issue. Don't care as I have the full EV no range extender.


It's also a simple fix by overriding BMW software where you can turn the Rex on after 75% discharge. Not the 6% the USA gets to comply with California regulations. 6% is just to low of charge to rely on stable driving dynamics till you get to where your going.
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      05-19-2016, 09:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hayes180 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
I have an REX and have never experienced this.
First i heard of this as well. Wonder if anyone else has experienced this or just this one guy?
+1.
Never happened to me over 15.5K miles, at least 500 of them on REX.

The lawyers do have families to feed...

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      05-23-2016, 04:13 PM   #10
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Happened to me. Scary and dangerous, the car just slows down to Eco Pro+ mode which is limited to ~53mph. The dash warns the driver this may happen, but it doesn't say your speed will be reduced to a crawl when you're currently doing 75. Granted it didn't kick in until I was down to 1% charge.

I think the bigger crime is the artificial limitation of 1.9 gallons of range!
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      05-24-2016, 01:43 AM   #11
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Happened to me several times when your fully out of electric. Once your on range extended mode and still have some electric than your fine but once the full electric is gone. Your speed will reduce to 40 mph and that was my max speed.
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      05-24-2016, 08:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I have an REX and have never experienced this.
Does your REX have a hold mode or is it a stupid CARB compliant car that will not under any circumstance start the range extender until the battery is at 6%. I understand the desire to meet the BEVx criteria and get max CARB credits but they made an unsafe car in the process. If the car had a hold function as they do in the ROW it would be fine.
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      06-02-2016, 06:41 AM   #13
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This is an issue and it definitely can happen if your driving on REx power for prolonged period at high speeds (over 70 mph) or if your doing a long, sustained elevation climb at highway speeds. The range extender can't sustain the power consumption need under these strenuous conditions and the vehicle can slow down to a point where the motor can provide enough energy to allow you to continue.

It's possible to own the car for a while and never experience it, but you can also have this happen to you on the first day of ownership depending on how you use the car. It's a complex topic that is thoroughly detailed in this blog post (it's too long to copy and paste here - I'm not trying to direct people off this site!). Everyone that has an i3 REx or is considering buying one should read this:

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2016/06/bm...is-happen.html
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      06-02-2016, 06:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
This topic is old and they fixed the problem ages ago with an updated software.

Problem is not all cars have the updated software. At least that's what my dealer told me about that issue. Don't care as I have the full EV no range extender.


It's also a simple fix by overriding BMW software where you can turn the Rex on after 75% discharge. Not the 6% the USA gets to comply with California regulations. 6% is just to low of charge to rely on stable driving dynamics till you get to where your going.
Your dealer is incorrect. There is no software update that restores the state of charge hold mode as available in Europe and the rest of the world. People have coded their cars to get it, but BMW won't do it for you.
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      06-02-2016, 09:29 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog
Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
This topic is old and they fixed the problem ages ago with an updated software.

Problem is not all cars have the updated software. At least that's what my dealer told me about that issue. Don't care as I have the full EV no range extender.


It's also a simple fix by overriding BMW software where you can turn the Rex on after 75% discharge. Not the 6% the USA gets to comply with California regulations. 6% is just to low of charge to rely on stable driving dynamics till you get to where your going.
Your dealer is incorrect. There is no software update that restores the state of charge hold mode as available in Europe and the rest of the world. People have coded their cars to get it, but BMW won't do it for you.
You misunderstood me I know that. they said the reduced power up a hill was remedied. Not the hold feature.


Well happy I have the EV then anyhow and don't have to worry about it.



Besides people shouldn't be taking the darn car that low Anyhow. Like driving on empty and then running out of gas and just stopping in the middle of the road like I've seen people do, makes no sense. At least the i3 still drives. If your driving that much then maybe the car isn't the right one for them yet. Wait till it has 200 miles or more.

The range extender was never intended as a normal drive like how you want extender here in the USA and meant to get you to a charger in an emergency if your fully depleted, like a reserve tank.

If your driving at 1% and expect it to drive normal then God help you!



Funny though I can get over a 10% range boost just by putting in a far away place on the navigation, ill start with 84miles then after I put in an address 200 miles away all of a sudden I get 96 miles.
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      06-02-2016, 10:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
You misunderstood me I know that. they said the reduced power up a hill was remedied. Not the hold feature.


Well happy I have the EV then anyhow and don't have to worry about it.



Besides people shouldn't be taking the darn car that low Anyhow. Like driving on empty and then running out of gas and just stopping in the middle of the road like I've seen people do, makes no sense. At least the i3 still drives. If your driving that much then maybe the car isn't the right one for them yet. Wait till it has 200 miles or more.

The range extender was never intended as a normal drive like how you want extender here in the USA and meant to get you to a charger in an emergency if your fully depleted, like a reserve tank.

If your driving at 1% and expect it to drive normal then God help you!



Funny though I can get over a 10% range boost just by putting in a far away place on the navigation, ill start with 84miles then after I put in an address 200 miles away all of a sudden I get 96 miles.

He's still wrong I was actually part of a small group of beta testers for BMW to test the "new and improved" software to help with hill climbing. The changes were so mild and unhelpful the group recommended the BMW didn't even make the software change because the customers wouldn't be able to notice a difference and would be confused. They did make some very minor adjustments, but it doesn't even begin to address the issue if you're trying to climb an elevation of many hundreds of feet (or thousands) at highway speeds with the REx running.

The only to really allow the vehicle to to this is to reinstate the SOC hold mode. That, or using a much bigger REx motor which I don't believe is the right direction to go in. This engine is fine as long as you don't engage it at such a low state of charge. This will be addressed in the 2017 i3 with the larger battery, I'm sure.
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      06-02-2016, 12:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog
Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
You misunderstood me I know that. they said the reduced power up a hill was remedied. Not the hold feature.


Well happy I have the EV then anyhow and don't have to worry about it.



Besides people shouldn't be taking the darn car that low Anyhow. Like driving on empty and then running out of gas and just stopping in the middle of the road like I've seen people do, makes no sense. At least the i3 still drives. If your driving that much then maybe the car isn't the right one for them yet. Wait till it has 200 miles or more.

The range extender was never intended as a normal drive like how you want extender here in the USA and meant to get you to a charger in an emergency if your fully depleted, like a reserve tank.

If your driving at 1% and expect it to drive normal then God help you!



Funny though I can get over a 10% range boost just by putting in a far away place on the navigation, ill start with 84miles then after I put in an address 200 miles away all of a sudden I get 96 miles.

He's still wrong I was actually part of a small group of beta testers for BMW to test the "new and improved" software to help with hill climbing. The changes were so mild and unhelpful the group recommended the BMW didn't even make the software change because the customers wouldn't be able to notice a difference and would be confused. They did make some very minor adjustments, but it doesn't even begin to address the issue if you're trying to climb an elevation of many hundreds of feet (or thousands) at highway speeds with the REx running.

The only to really allow the vehicle to to this is to reinstate the SOC hold mode. That, or using a much bigger REx motor which I don't believe is the right direction to go in. This engine is fine as long as you don't engage it at such a low state of charge. This will be addressed in the 2017 i3 with the larger battery, I'm sure.
Still don't give a rats petoot what they say I hate the dealers anyway.

Thank California for that 6% Rex engagement crap.
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      06-03-2016, 02:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog View Post
I was actually part of a small group of beta testers for BMW to test the "new and improved" software to help with hill climbing. The changes were so mild and unhelpful the group recommended the BMW didn't even make the software change because the customers wouldn't be able to notice a difference and would be confused.
Interesting. Given that the updates were abandoned, what were they?
Higher battery % threshold for REX engagement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog View Post
The only to really allow the vehicle to to this is to reinstate the SOC hold mode. That, or using a much bigger REx motor which I don't believe is the right direction to go in.
Agreed on the proposed remedies, although I do believe a higher generation capacity REX engine 750cc ?) would be of material benefit.

I have SOC coded in.
I drove up over some mountains the last weekend, manually turned REX ON at 72% of battery charge. It kicked in, but allowed battery to drop down to 67.5% on steeper climbs, charged it back up to 71% during descents, then back down to 68% a few times.

Had I been driving a non-coded REX, the car would have slowed down when battery % dropped down to 2% (also a pre-coded threshold that can be changed). My battery charge fluctuation of +/- 4.5% would have tripped that 2% given that stock US REX only kicks in at 6%.

A larger REX engine that can generate more electricity, and keep the battery from discharging during high energy consumption driving modes, would be one practical solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog View Post
This engine is fine as long as you don't engage it at such a low state of charge. This will be addressed in the 2017 i3 with the larger battery, I'm sure.
Larger MY'17 battery just delays the point when REX kick's in. If it still kicks in at 6% of remaining battery charge, the same problem will reoccur. If they raise the engagement threshold to 10+%, then REX weakness will be better hidden, but at the expense of limiting battery's usable capacity.

The root cause of the problem is the REX engine that is not up to the task of generating enough electricity to power the car under all driving conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
Besides people shouldn't be taking the darn car that low Anyhow.
In the US market, drivers have no control as to when the REX engages.
As long as BMW continues to market REX as Range-EXtender, drivers will expect it to perform as advertised. Namely - extend the derivable range of the i3, with no limitations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
The range extender was never intended as a normal drive like how you want extender here in the USA and meant to get you to a charger in an emergency if your fully depleted, like a reserve tank.
I don't think the above statement is true.
BMW is marketing REX as Range EXtender, not "emergency limp to the side of the road extender".

BMW advertises REX as a way to keep driving for up to an additional 55-75 miles, with no change in driving pattern. It's marketed that way all across the world, not just in the US.

Unfortunately, the REX engine's charging capacity was not engineered up to the task, and falls short of that promise.

You can work around that limitation if you are allowed to manually turn the REX ON in anticipation of driving conditions that will require extra load. But that feature is still just a band-aid for a REX engine that's too small to cope.

a
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      06-03-2016, 02:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog View Post
I was actually part of a small group of beta testers for BMW to test the "new and improved" software to help with hill climbing. The changes were so mild and unhelpful the group recommended the BMW didn't even make the software change because the customers wouldn't be able to notice a difference and would be confused.
Interesting. Given that the updates were abandoned, what were they?
Higher battery % threshold for REX engagement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog View Post
The only to really allow the vehicle to to this is to reinstate the SOC hold mode. That, or using a much bigger REx motor which I don't believe is the right direction to go in.
Agreed on the proposed remedies, although I do believe a higher generation capacity REX engine 750cc ?) would be of material benefit.

I have SOC coded in.
I drove up over some mountains the last weekend, manually turned REX ON at 72% of battery charge. It kicked in, but allowed battery to drop down to 67.5% on steeper climbs, charged it back up to 71% during descents, then back down to 68% a few times.

Had I been driving a non-coded REX, the car would have slowed down when battery % dropped down to 2% (also a pre-coded threshold that can be changed). My battery charge fluctuation of +/- 4.5% would have tripped that 2% given that stock US REX only kicks in at 6%.

A larger REX engine that can generate more electricity, and keep the battery from discharging during high energy consumption driving modes, would be one practical solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommolog View Post
This engine is fine as long as you don't engage it at such a low state of charge. This will be addressed in the 2017 i3 with the larger battery, I'm sure.
Larger MY'17 battery just delays the point when REX kick's in. If it still kicks in at 6% of remaining battery charge, the same problem will reoccur. If they raise the engagement threshold to 10+%, then REX weakness will be better hidden, but at the expense of limiting battery's usable capacity.

The root cause of the problem is the REX engine that is not up to the task of generating enough electricity to power the car under all driving conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
Besides people shouldn't be taking the darn car that low Anyhow.
In the US market, drivers have no control as to when the REX engages.
As long as BMW continues to market REX as Range-EXtender, drivers will expect it to perform as advertised. Namely - extend the derivable range of the i3, with no limitations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
The range extender was never intended as a normal drive like how you want extender here in the USA and meant to get you to a charger in an emergency if your fully depleted, like a reserve tank.
I don't think the above statement is true.
BMW is marketing REX as Range EXtender, not "emergency limp to the side of the road extender".

BMW advertises REX as a way to keep driving for up to an additional 55-75 miles, with no change in driving pattern. It's marketed that way all across the world, not just in the US.

Unfortunately, the REX engine's charging capacity was not engineered up to the task, and falls short of that promise.

You can work around that limitation if you are allowed to manually turn the REX ON in anticipation of driving conditions that will require extra load. But that feature is still just a band-aid for a REX engine that's too small to cope.

a
Ohhhhh afadeev my nemesis lol. Jk.

Every BMW genius I've had the pleasure talking two said its extends range but should be used to get you to a charger. Usually while I'm waiting for parts to fix my other BMW's that love to brake and leave me stranded.

Just calling it as its been told to me. Marketing is a whole different beast all together and can call it what they want to but I see it as a way to limp yourself to a charger nothing more.

If the engine drove the wheels then fine it should work but it's a generator that tries to hold the state of charge not charge the batteries therefore if you are asking for more juice then what it can provide your going to run into problems. Before when I was choosing whether to go EV or Rex they said the Rex just holds state of charge not charge the batteries so it was meant to get you to a charging station. I then concluded that paying 3 to 4 k for a backup was not worth it for the added maintenance and weight and other drawbacks.

I would see people running an EV down to 1 to 2 miles of charge in the same way. You plan your trips when you only have so much distance. When you have more miles per charge then you can be more laxed with where you drive. I go all week without a charge and recharge at 15 miles. But I only am 6 miles from work so the i3 is perfect for me but I understand some work 35 or more miles from work but then is the i3 really the right car?

The rest of the world doesn't much care as they can turn it on whenever holding 20 miles or more of charge having more than enough beans to do what they need, but it's a bullshit move from California doing what they do best and screwing shit up. So blame California as much as BMW for screwing it up.

Sick and tired of all the whining from people.
If the Car does that to you and scares you sell it! Or change your driving characteristics. Move on.

P.s having a bad week so more emotional than usual!
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      06-05-2016, 04:30 AM   #20
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What a drag in more ways than one.


No way I'd have the bloody REx model anyway.
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      06-05-2016, 06:42 AM   #21
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BMW should just buy the Plaintiff a Chevy Volt and call it a day.
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      06-05-2016, 11:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev
BMW advertises REX as a way to keep driving for up to an additional 55-75 miles, with no change in driving pattern. It's marketed that way all across the world, not just in the US.

Unfortunately, the REX engine's charging capacity was not engineered up to the task, and falls short of that promise.

You can work around that limitation if you are allowed to manually turn the REX ON in anticipation of driving conditions that will require extra load. But that feature is still just a band-aid for a REX engine that's too small to cope.
If the engine drove the wheels then fine it should work but it's a generator that tries to hold the state of charge not charge the batteries therefore if you are asking for more juice then what it can provide your going to run into problems.
That is exactly the problem!

Truth be told, this issue shows up in only ~5% of driving situations - driving up long inclines at highway speeds. But if your hill is long enough, and you haven't coded SOC feature back on and used it pro-actively, you can drain the battery down to the 2% level where speed throttling kicks in.

If you don't drive up the mountains, this is a non-issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
Before when I was choosing whether to go EV or Rex they said the Rex just holds state of charge not charge the batteries so it was meant to get you to a charging station. I then concluded that paying 3 to 4 k for a backup was not worth it for the added maintenance and weight and other drawbacks.
REX does, in fact, charge the batteries up.
Even if you were going up a steep incline and drop the SOC below engagement point, REX will eventually charge it back up to where it kicked in!

Whoever told you that it was a limp-mode back-up was misinformed.
I just want to make that point clear to any other readers who may get turned off from REX (and i3's in general) after reading this thread.

I frequently drive ~145 mile one-way trips.
I know I can't make it w/o REX, so as I approach Poconos, I turn REX on and use up ~75% of the gas tank. Then I turn REX off, and complete the rest of the trip on battery power with ~6% battery charge at the end. Recharge batteries for free at my destination, repeat the routine on the way back. Sometimes, same day.

Zero issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
I go all week without a charge and recharge at 15 miles. But I only am 6 miles from work so the i3 is perfect for me but I understand some work 35 or more miles from work but then is the i3 really the right car?
Why not?

If you are young, or have kids, you daily routine is anything my consistent.
REX give you ~75 miles of EV range, maybe ~100 if you are super slow and gentle. But if you need to go 150 on a certain day, or double that with ~3.5 hours to recharge in the middle, it will still do the job.

No-one needs an electric car, period.
But it's kind of cool and fun to make one work for your lifestyle. REX made it possible for me to dip my toes into the EV world.

To each his own!

Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
but it's a bullshit move from California doing what they do best and screwing shit up. So blame California as much as BMW for screwing it up.
Well, Cali CARB bureaucrats did what all bureaucrats do - pulled rules out of their asses. It's what they do. You can't blame the fish for being wet all the time!

There is no requirement for BMW to follow those B.S. rules and disable "hold SOC" and castrate the gas tank. They did it to max out ZEV credits. You can't blame them for looking after their own bottom line either - it's what BMW NA execs are paid to do.

None of this would be an issue if REX had larger charging capacity.
None of this is an issue any longer if you take 20 minutes to code away BMW CARB hacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -c- View Post
Sick and tired of all the whining from people.
Common, it's the internet, isn't that why we are all here!?



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