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      02-24-2017, 07:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Touring View Post
Looking close at the pictures, seems like it will come with black plastic around the wheel arches? Like a Mini or this VW, would be cool
I noticed that too. Looks like they're flared enough to accept at least a 7" wheel. That would help out a LOT.
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      03-07-2017, 06:44 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by rallybull View Post
Bigger battery than the current new battery? So can we expect at least 170 miles range?
In a BEV, no, in a REx, of course. I believe that commenter is saying "bigger battery" than his 2014-2016, if he has a 2017, his lease likely wouldn't be ending in October of 2017, crazy how math works.

My 2015 Coded US REx often shows more than 170 miles of total range. I rarely use a 1/4 of that in a day.

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Originally Posted by Touring View Post
Looking close at the pictures, seems like it will come with black plastic around the wheel arches? Like a Mini or this VW, would be cool
For wider tires.

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Originally Posted by DCG View Post
The i3 is an amazing car but there's nothing they can do to make this car look any cooler or sexier. They just should've stuck this technology in the standard 3 Series platform.
Speak for yourself.

Springs, spacers, tint, tinted wheel arch reflectors, done.



-----

A lot of these comments remind me of why I don't get on this site much anymore. Can you imagine the flack someone would get, or multiple people would get if they went into an M3/M4/M5/M6 forum and posted about how AWFUL they think those respective cars look? To each and every nay-sayer I say DRIVE IT, I was hooked instantly. It is a crazy fun car to drive, we now have two of them.

Luckily the i3 has an AMAZING Facebook Group, its one of the best features of the car, so I don't have to check their forum very frequently. Its just a glaring reminder of how some BMW owners are. "My BMW is better than your BMW because of XYZLMNOP" GTFOver yourselves.
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      03-10-2017, 04:01 AM   #25
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With 125Ah batteries and 400k, let's hope BMW i branch will get rid of the gasoline engine and tank for good.
Use the space in the back where the REX system is for the stuff that is now in front and fit an extra engine in front instead.
A xDrive i3 would be super cool and really needed for the "s" models to get some traction.
Also for safer regenerating in wintertime.
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      03-10-2017, 03:05 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by IcemanNorway View Post
With 125Ah batteries and 400k, let's hope BMW i branch will get rid of the gasoline engine and tank for good.
Use the space in the back where the REX system is for the stuff that is now in front and fit an extra engine in front instead.
A xDrive i3 would be super cool and really needed for the "s" models to get some traction.
Also for safer regenerating in wintertime.
Yes the extra engine in front giving X Drive would probably increase the efficiency, and a range bump would be had, just like it was in the Tesla D. Forget how much, but somewhere 10-15%. That plus a big battery, might put the REX out of business.

However, I must say that having the REX myself, gives another option. The DC fast Charge has to grow up a little bit more, making the REX unnecessary.

This would make my X3D obsolete, and I could go to one car, so would be able to absorb the higher cost. It will come. We just all cannot wait.

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      03-10-2017, 05:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanNorway View Post
With 125Ah batteries and 400k, let's hope BMW i branch will get rid of the gasoline engine and tank for good.
Use the space in the back where the REX system is for the stuff that is now in front and fit an extra engine in front instead.
The tiny gas tank doesn't take much space, nor is much of an obstacle to sales.
What does take a significant amount of space is the REX engine. BMW could reclaim that space to put more batteries on board of BEV cars. But they don't, and they won't.

It boils down to the extra cost, and the fact that another +10-15% more battery capacity would bump the cost of the car up, and make it that much harder to sell. And frankly, +10-15% capacity bump is not enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanNorway View Post
A xDrive i3 would be super cool and really needed for the "s" models to get some traction.
Also for safer regenerating in wintertime.
It would be cool, but likely pointless.
i3, as much as I like mine, has become noncompetitive with its price vs. range value proposition.
Since i3 was launched 3 years ago, the market has evolved way quicker than Munich was prepared to react. Normally, BMWs have ~7 year life-cycle. With the rate of EV and battery technological innovation, i3 went from compelling to forgotten in 3 years.
I can guarantee you no traditional automaker was prepared for that!

Without a larger chassis to accommodate a 2x physically larger (60+ kWh) battery (+33% capacity increments from battery density wont' do), i3 has become a fish out of water. It is now book-ended by much longer range competitors: Bolt (cheaper built, but lower price) and Model S (higher quality throughout, a bit higher price).

Another engine would bring its price closer to Model S, but without the range and luxury. It wont reverse the downward sales spiral of the i3. So the project wont get the funding.

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      03-10-2017, 07:12 PM   #28
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Very good. BMW will extend up to 6 months if you have another BMW on order. Of course, if you lease again there may not be very good i3 incentives at that time.
How does that work exactly? I'm in the same boat. I just call up BMWFS and say "Hey, I'd like to keep my car for 6 more months?"

How much does that cost? Do I make 6 extra payments at my current rate? Do they give me extra miles or do I just buy a lump sum of miles?
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      03-10-2017, 10:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichP
Very good. BMW will extend up to 6 months if you have another BMW on order. Of course, if you lease again there may not be very good i3 incentives at that time.
How does that work exactly? I'm in the same boat. I just call up BMWFS and say "Hey, I'd like to keep my car for 6 more months?"
When I did it a few years ago, I had my SA do all of the above on my behalf.
Then, BMW FS had effectively rescheduled my lease turn-in date for T+4 months (that's all I needed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeFor View Post
How much does that cost? Do I make 6 extra payments at my current rate? Do they give me extra miles or do I just buy a lump sum of miles?
Exactly - BMW FS effectively pro-rates the current lease terms for the additional months you had requested.
Your monthly payment stays the same.
You get a prorated mileage allowance based on current lease terms. If you have a 10K/year lease, then extending the lease for +6 months will get you +5K of additional millage allowance.

HTH,
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      03-10-2017, 10:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rallybull
Bigger battery than the current new battery? So can we expect at least 170 miles range?
In a BEV, no, in a REx, of course.
Going from 60Ah to 90Ah battery capacity (same physical tray size) gave i3 an effective 50% battery boost (from 22KWh to 33KWh). The actual range increased by less than that, from 81 miles to 114 miles, or + 40%, due to the extra weight.

Going from 90Ah to 125Ah (next step in Samsung batteries) will provide a +39% capacity boost. If you assume a similar handicap with actual range, we would get ~ +31% range bump, upto ~150 miles.


Still too little to compete effectively against Bolt or Model S, or Model 3.
But better than it was before.

The only outstanding questions are:
  1. When will it happen. Could be MY18, starting production on 11/17. Could be MY19. I believe the answer is largely in Samsung's hands.
  2. How much more will it cost us. You would think that it would be irresponsible to raise prices when the product is becoming less and less competitive. But BMW did just that with the 90Ah batteries last year, and hasn't bothered to drop the price on the 60Ah i3, even though the batteries clearly cost BMW much less now then they did three (3) years ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
My 2015 Coded US REx often shows more than 170 miles of total range. I rarely use a 1/4 of that in a day.
Mostly same here, but that's also a self fulfilling prophesy.

I just don't take the REX onto long journeys anymore. Use ICE cars for that.
Therefore, short range is sufficient. But if i3 did have an appreciably longer range, I probably would have pushed its limits a lot more.


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      03-12-2017, 04:24 PM   #31
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Going from 60Ah to 90Ah battery capacity (same physical tray size) gave i3 an effective 50% battery boost (from 22KWh to 33KWh). The actual range increased by less than that, from 81 miles to 114 miles, or + 40%, due to the extra weight.

Going from 90Ah to 125Ah (next step in Samsung batteries) will provide a +39% capacity boost. If you assume a similar handicap with actual range, we would get ~ +31% range bump, upto ~150 miles.


Now if you add in a REX with a larger tank, is reasonable to expect an additional ~150 miles from the REX. This makes a trip with a destination 300 miles away feasible, and with a fill up at the other end, you can come back 150 miles. Add in a fast charge at the destination or on the way back, and you can do a very nice 600 mile round trip. This is competitive with what is out there, considering the way the i3 drives. I would do this in a hearbeat when my 2015 REX comes off lease in 8 months.

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      03-13-2017, 03:57 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
Going from 60Ah to 90Ah battery capacity (same physical tray size) gave i3 an effective 50% battery boost (from 22KWh to 33KWh). The actual range increased by less than that, from 81 miles to 114 miles, or + 40%, due to the extra weight.

Going from 90Ah to 125Ah (next step in Samsung batteries) will provide a +39% capacity boost. If you assume a similar handicap with actual range, we would get ~ +31% range bump, upto ~150 miles.


Now if you add in a REX with a larger tank, is reasonable to expect an additional ~150 miles from the REX. This makes a trip with a destination 300 miles away feasible, and with a fill up at the other end, you can come back 150 miles. Add in a fast charge at the destination or on the way back, and you can do a very nice 600 mile round trip. This is competitive with what is out there, considering the way the i3 drives. I would do this in a hearbeat when my 2015 REX comes off lease in 8 months.

Bailyhill
I don't see BMW adding a bigger fuel tank but this would really improve the i3 range. What the i3 needs is M Sport package which includes sport suspension and sport mode as well standard rims and tires. The amount of saving with these special i3 types may have helped 3 years ago but not now with better battery milage. BMW needs to sell more of the i3 so they need to make the i3 a drivers cars not a shopping trolly for around town.
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      03-13-2017, 10:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
Now if you add in a REX with a larger tank, is reasonable to expect an additional ~150 miles from the REX.
Gas range will always be ~10% lower than EV range, so that BMW NA can max out Cali ZEV credits (on the back of USA customers' satisfaction).


Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
This makes a trip with a destination 300 miles away feasible, and with a fill up at the other end, you can come back 150 miles. Add in a fast charge at the destination or on the way back, and you can do a very nice 600 mile round trip. This is competitive with what is out there, considering the way the i3 drives.
Sadly, I have to disagree here.

You could (with excessive patience and planning for gas stops) get current REX to travel 300 or 600 miles, but it hardly makes it an EV challenge to BOLT or Model S.

Unless your i3 is your one and only car, REX range does not really matter, or count. For two reasons:
1). It's an emergency reserve, utilizing or relying on which noisily defeats the motivation for buying and using an Electric Vehicle in the first place.
2). i3 is a largely disappointing highway cruiser. It's way too susceptible to wind buffeting (from both cross winds and 18-wheelers), narrow wheels tend to tramline along asphalt grooves, and way too soft springs + tiny sway bars provide floaty and uninspiring handling during emergency lane changes. Highway speeds also destroy EV mileage.

Long story short, I've given up on taking the i3 on the highways. That's the area where M3 and other ICE cars excel on all fronts.

If BMW were to come out with "Sports" package that would fix highway handling challenges (or buys and re-badges Model S), I will reconsider #2.

Until then, I'm returning my REX in favor of a 93Ah BEV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
What the i3 needs is M Sport package which includes sport suspension and sport mode as well standard rims and tires. The amount of saving with these special i3 types may have helped 3 years ago but not now with better battery milage.
+1.

YMMV,
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      03-14-2017, 07:51 AM   #34
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300 mile Range Opens the Market

Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
Gas range will always be ~10% lower than EV range, so that BMW NA can max out Cali ZEV credits (on the back of USA customers' satisfaction).




Sadly, I have to disagree here.

You could (with excessive patience and planning for gas stops) get current REX to travel 300 or 600 miles, but it hardly makes it an EV challenge to BOLT or Model S.

Unless your i3 is your one and only car, REX range does not really matter, or count. For two reasons:
1). It's an emergency reserve, utilizing or relying on which noisily defeats the motivation for buying and using an Electric Vehicle in the first place.
2). i3 is a largely disappointing highway cruiser. It's way too susceptible to wind buffeting (from both cross winds and 18-wheelers), narrow wheels tend to tramline along asphalt grooves, and woft springs + sway bars provide floaty and uninspiring handling during emergency lane changes. Highway speeds also destroy EV mileage.

Long story short, I've given up on taking the i3 on the highways. That's the area where M3 and other ICE cars excel on all fronts.

If BMW were to come out with "Sports" package that would fix highway handling challenges (or buys and re-badges Model S), I will reconsider #2.

Until then, I'm returning my REX in favor of a 93Ah BEV.



+1.

YMMV,
a

Hello afadeev;

I don't disagree with your perspective. In fact, while I don't have an M3/i3, I have an x3D and an i3 Rex. These cars cover my needs very well, as the i3 and M3 cover your needs. I agree that the highway handling needs to be fixed, but that might not take a full M version--perhaps adaptive drive or the mag fluid shocks and some software would make a big difference--or maybe just a proper deployed spoiler (costs range?).

What we have to keep in mind, that we each have over a 100 Grand at list price tied up in our cars. Not too many folks can do that, and I am not sure that I would not opt for a Tesla if I wanted to drop that much money at one time. I got the leftover crazy lease on the 2015 REX, so its like I have only $75K tied up--actually lease both cars so its more like a monthly payment.

If BMW does evolve the i3, next generation batteries, bigger tank for the REX, and Xdrive in some cases, then they have a vehicle that does everything for folks--300 miles on a charge and a tank of gas, and can go anywhere in snow country--like a small SUV. I think that would open up the market considerably. They should also consider putting additional battery where the REX goes, for a long distance BEV. This might even preclude the REX. It also requires the maturing of the Fast Charge network, so that one has that option about every 150 miles.

They seem to have sold 11K and 6K units in the first couple of years. I am sure that they wanted to do much better than that. Right now they are limited to folks who have shorter needs or two cars, like you and I.

I am sure that an M version would fill out the lineup, but right now I suspect that the i3 needs volume before they can justify the special edition M. An advanced battery, dual motor, 400hp, AWD, track capable, car would be stiff competition for the M. However, an advanced battery, 170hp, AWD, nice riding car for us old folks would expand the market, keep BMW competitive in the EV space, and provide revenue for the i3M, and we would both be happy, along with a lot of other campers.

Bailyhill
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      03-14-2017, 10:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
[...]What we have to keep in mind, that we each have over a 100 Grand at list price tied up in our cars. Not too many folks can do that, and I am not sure that I would not opt for a Tesla if I wanted to drop that much money at one time. I got the leftover crazy lease on the 2015 REX, so its like I have only $75K tied up--actually lease both cars so its more like a monthly payment.
That's exactly right - with a lease, you only commit ($ monthly payment) * (# of months on the lease).
In my case, I may be leasing a $50K i3-BEV, but my exposure is only $250 * 24 == $6K over 2 years.

That's Honda Civic money.

Net of gas savings, it's a ~$100/month car.
For a vehicle MSRP-ed at $50K, that's an absolutely a steal.

In fact, i3 would be an absolutely perfect car for parents to get for their teenagers. Pretty safe, not too fast, always on an EV range leash ;-)

My kids are not old enough to drive, but BMW is missing a serious marketing segmentation opportunity here!


Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
They should also consider putting additional battery where the REX goes, for a long distance BEV.
I remember discussing this a year or two ago, and nothing has come of it.
I suspect there are serious packaging constraints preventing this (battery tray is sealed, and ends before the rear axle), else, BMW is usually pretty ingenious with its packaging solutions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
They seem to have sold 11K and 6K units in the first couple of years. I am sure that they wanted to do much better than that. Right now they are limited to folks who have shorter needs or two cars, like you and I.
Agreed.

Effectively, that means selling i3s to people living near major cities.
I picked word "near" on purpose, because you can't reliably recharge an EV in NYC (way too few public EV chargers), so owning one while you live in the City is impractical (never mind the costs of parking and insuring a car in NYC, period).

i3 really requires a garage with an L2 charger that it can hog exclusively. Any time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
I am sure that an M version would fill out the lineup, but right now I suspect that the i3 needs volume before they can justify the special edition M. An advanced battery, dual motor, 400hp, AWD, track capable, car would be stiff competition for the M. However, an advanced battery, 170hp, AWD, nice riding car for us old folks would expand the market, keep BMW competitive in the EV space, and provide revenue for the i3M, and we would both be happy, along with a lot of other campers
Sounds good, but financials would not support an i3M car.
///M brand sales represent somewhere between 5-10% of equivalent regular model sales.
So if there were 6K i3s sold in the US last year, at most, i3M would have sold ~600 of them.
That's would have been less than 1/2 of i8 sales last year.

You see where it becomes a super-niche product that can't justify proper new sub-model R&D investment. And ///M quality upgrades would require serious redesign with extra cooling (Model S overheats and craps out on track), better aerodynamics, interior upgrades, etc, etc.

An i3"S" upgrade, with stiffer suspension + wider tires + maybe stronger engine, is way cheaper to put together. Priced reasonably, people will buy it. I would.

So I bet an "S" will happen.

4WD i3M would have been cool, but is highly unlikely to happen.
Not unless i3 sales suddenly go exponential and hit 10x in a few years between now and 2021, when i5 SUV is due to arrive.
Bolt and Model 3 will make sure that that (sadly) will not come to pass.

In a way, i8 is, and will remain, an i3///M-car ;-)

a
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      03-16-2017, 06:08 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
That's exactly right - with a lease, you only commit ($ monthly payment) * (# of months on the lease).
In my case, I may be leasing a $50K i3-BEV, but my exposure is only $250 * 24 == $6K over 2 years.

That's Honda Civic money.

Net of gas savings, it's a ~$100/month car.
For a vehicle MSRP-ed at $50K, that's an absolutely a steal.

In fact, i3 would be an absolutely perfect car for parents to get for their teenagers. Pretty safe, not too fast, always on an EV range leash ;-)

My kids are not old enough to drive, but BMW is missing a serious marketing segmentation opportunity here!




I remember discussing this a year or two ago, and nothing has come of it.
I suspect there are serious packaging constraints preventing this (battery tray is sealed, and ends before the rear axle), else, BMW is usually pretty ingenious with its packaging solutions.




Agreed.

Effectively, that means selling i3s to people living near major cities.
I picked word "near" on purpose, because you can't reliably recharge an EV in NYC (way too few public EV chargers), so owning one while you live in the City is impractical (never mind the costs of parking and insuring a car in NYC, period).

i3 really requires a garage with an L2 charger that it can hog exclusively. Any time.




Sounds good, but financials would not support an i3M car.
///M brand sales represent somewhere between 5-10% of equivalent regular model sales.
So if there were 6K i3s sold in the US last year, at most, i3M would have sold ~600 of them.
That's would have been less than 1/2 of i8 sales last year.

You see where it becomes a super-niche product that can't justify proper new sub-model R&D investment. And ///M quality upgrades would require serious redesign with extra cooling (Model S overheats and craps out on track), better aerodynamics, interior upgrades, etc, etc.

An i3"S" upgrade, with stiffer suspension + wider tires + maybe stronger engine, is way cheaper to put together. Priced reasonably, people will buy it. I would.

So I bet an "S" will happen.

4WD i3M would have been cool, but is highly unlikely to happen.
Not unless i3 sales suddenly go exponential and hit 10x in a few years between now and 2021, when i5 SUV is due to arrive.
Bolt and Model 3 will make sure that that (sadly) will not come to pass.

In a way, i8 is, and will remain, an i3///M-car ;-)

a

I was thinking that they would make a second battery tray, fitted where the REX is now. Keep it the same weight as the REX, but all battery, >120 Ah cells.

Bailyhill
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      03-20-2017, 04:55 AM   #37
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From bimmerpost I read 15 ps extra for i3s. My dealer confirmed they have official info (okay semmi official inside info) carbon black will be a color choice for i3s. They also told me no larger battery for i3s, current upgraded one stays. Also wider wheel arches at least for i3s model. i3 is a great car imo. Coming from several coupes (e46, e92) as well as x6/x5. I now have a 2017 x5 and i am buying an i3 soon because i simply love it and no real need for an X5 (i will keep it for really long trips couple of times per year).
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      03-20-2017, 03:11 PM   #38
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120 Ah battery?

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Originally Posted by 1230vani View Post
From bimmerpost I read 15 ps extra for i3s. My dealer confirmed they have official info (okay semmi official inside info) carbon black will be a color choice for i3s. They also told me no larger battery for i3s, current upgraded one stays. Also wider wheel arches at least for i3s model. i3 is a great car imo. Coming from several coupes (e46, e92) as well as x6/x5. I now have a 2017 x5 and i am buying an i3 soon because i simply love it and no real need for an X5 (i will keep it for really long trips couple of times per year).
It probably depends on two things. One, are those batteries ready from the supplier. And does BMW think that another range increase will increase sales. I assume that they are not yet satisfied with the 2017 levels yet.

More range opens up the market, and with the Bolt and Model 3 as soon to be to market, they could use more.

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      03-24-2017, 11:13 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
It probably depends on two things. One, are those batteries ready from the supplier. And does BMW think that another range increase will increase sales. I assume that they are not yet satisfied with the 2017 levels yet.
All good points.
Alas, there is the third, and possibly the most critical one that needs to be considered, the cost.

As long as BMW continues to charge more for larger capacity batteries ($1.2K premium for 94Ah over 60Ah), the higher cost will deter some buyers.

Thus, any range gain customer pull will be offset, or negated, by higher vehicle costs.


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Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
More range opens up the market, and with the Bolt and Model 3 as soon to be to market, they could use more.
There is a big difference with "more" range and "enough" to be competitive.
Anther +25% range bump (from 94Ah to 120Ah Samsung batteries), to ~130 miles, will do nothing to pull customers away from either Bolt of Model 3.

To bring to market a meaningful increase in range, BMW needs to redesign and elongate the i3 frame to make room for more batteries. There is no indication that any such effort is underway, at last not in time for MY'18 refresh.

i3 has already got longer range than Leaf, yet it is trailing it badly in sales, roughly 2.5 : 1. Leaf is much cheaper, starting at $30K vs. i3's $42K. Evidently, that has a HUGE impact on sales.

Increasing the cost with marginally longer battery capacity risks making i3 that much less competitive in the marketplace!

a
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      03-25-2017, 11:17 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
The BMW i3 LCI "facelift" model is coming and here is a first look at the mild update. Our spy pics reveal a new bumper design and new fog lights as well as some new headlights. The rear bumper also has a completely new and sportier design. Besides the minor styling tweaks, the LCI model will get a bigger battery.

A sportier i3s model (with faster acceleration) is expected to join the standard i3 at some point, and they may possibly be introduced together at the Frankfurt auto show in September.

We can also expect some new colors to be introduced for the i3 LCI.

As our BMW pipeline thread shows, the new i3 will begin production in November.

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      03-27-2017, 06:04 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
All good points.
Alas, there is the third, and possibly the most critical one that needs to be considered, the cost.

As long as BMW continues to charge more for larger capacity batteries ($1.2K premium for 94Ah over 60Ah), the higher cost will deter some buyers.

Thus, any range gain customer pull will be offset, or negated, by higher vehicle costs.




There is a big difference with "more" range and "enough" to be competitive.
Anther +25% range bump (from 94Ah to 120Ah Samsung batteries), to ~130 miles, will do nothing to pull customers away from either Bolt of Model 3.

To bring to market a meaningful increase in range, BMW needs to redesign and elongate the i3 frame to make room for more batteries. There is no indication that any such effort is underway, at last not in time for MY'18 refresh.

i3 has already got longer range than Leaf, yet it is trailing it badly in sales, roughly 2.5 : 1. Leaf is much cheaper, starting at $30K vs. i3's $42K. Evidently, that has a HUGE impact on sales.

Increasing the cost with marginally longer battery capacity risks making i3 that much less competitive in the marketplace!

a
When the EV market matures people will value other things than range and price. Now you have "EV buyers" but soon you will have "budget EV buyers", "premium EV buyers" and so on. Just like on ICE cars now. People still buy a 340i when they can get a Nissan for much less.
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      03-27-2017, 07:22 AM   #42
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Mature Market

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Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
When the EV market matures people will value other things than range and price. Now you have "EV buyers" but soon you will have "budget EV buyers", "premium EV buyers" and so on. Just like on ICE cars now. People still buy a 340i when they can get a Nissan for much less.
I agree with you and think you have a good sense of the market. My wife and I each own a BMW, and I don't think that will change going forward. I hope we can live our our retirement years at a level of i3, X3D or X3e luxury vehicles. That is the plan. I don't trust GM--never owned one of their cars after my '57 Chevy DD in college, and as for the Leaf, its a nice grocery getter--not in the same league as the i3. I am just finishing a lease on my Smart ED and the i3 I just assumed is a considerable upgrade. These do cost more, but that is what I spent my life working to achieve, be able to afford nice things. I will probably never do the i8, but hope to be able to maintain the 3 series level.

Bailyhill



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      03-27-2017, 01:53 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
When the EV market matures people will value other things than range and price. Now you have "EV buyers" but soon you will have "budget EV buyers", "premium EV buyers" and so on.
I believe we are there already:
- Model S for "premium" EV buyers
- Everything else for "budget" category.

Sadly, i3 is neither here, nor there.

It's priced as "premium" EV, but its sub-sub-compact size and range belongs squarely in the "budget" category.
Even there, it is becoming less and less competitive, as other "budget" offerings are coming out with longer range and better acceleration (Bolt later this year, Model 3 early next year).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Just like on ICE cars now. People still buy a 340i when they can get a Nissan for much less.
Absolutely true, but if 340i was the size and had the acceleration of a plain vanilla MINI cooper, they wouldn't.

I'm not trying to engage in theoretical discussion, just reconciling EV sales #s with our theories:
http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/


Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
I agree with you and think you have a good sense of the market. My wife and I each own a BMW, and I don't think that will change going forward. I hope we can live our our retirement years at a level of i3, X3D or X3e luxury vehicles. [...] These do cost more, but that is what I spent my life working to achieve, be able to afford nice things.
I've also owned BMWs for 20+ years (starting with E30s), but never exclusively, nor fanatically.

Unfortunately, BMWs have slipped behind Tesla in terms of "coolness" and technology edge.
By a huge margin.

Take a look at what Model S has done to the US large luxury sedan sales. That market has remained largely stagnant over the past 3-4 years at ~100-120K units, but Model S's has gained market share to ~50% at the expense of all other makes and models, including Merc's S-class and BMW's 7-series.
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/10/16...n-q3-us-sales/

Same story in Europe:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwin.../#2c8a78cb7588

Anyone wants to bet against Model 3 doing something similar to 3-series and i3 over the next few years?

I do see replacing BMW's with Tesla's over the next few years.
If that happens, it will be 100% BMW's fault for sitting on its ass and not providing a technologically competitive product offering.
And for having become less "cool" then Tesla.



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Last edited by afadeev; 03-27-2017 at 03:06 PM..
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      03-27-2017, 07:14 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
When the EV market matures people will value other things than range and price. Now you have "EV buyers" but soon you will have "budget EV buyers", "premium EV buyers" and so on.
I believe we are there already:
- Model S for "premium" EV buyers
- Everything else for "budget" category.

Sadly, i3 is neither here, nor there.

It's priced as "premium" EV, but its sub-sub-compact size and range belongs squarely in the "budget" category.
Even there, it is becoming less and less competitive, as other "budget" offerings are coming out with longer range and better acceleration (Bolt later this year, Model 3 early next year).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Just like on ICE cars now. People still buy a 340i when they can get a Nissan for much less.
Absolutely true, but if 340i was the size and had the acceleration of a plain vanilla MINI cooper, they wouldn't.

I'm not trying to engage in theoretical discussion, just reconciling EV sales #s with our theories:
http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/


Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
I agree with you and think you have a good sense of the market. My wife and I each own a BMW, and I don't think that will change going forward. I hope we can live our our retirement years at a level of i3, X3D or X3e luxury vehicles. [...] These do cost more, but that is what I spent my life working to achieve, be able to afford nice things.
I've also owned BMWs for 20+ years (starting with E30s), but never exclusively, nor fanatically.

Unfortunately, BMWs have slipped behind Tesla in terms of "coolness" and technology edge.
By a huge margin.

Take a look at what Model S has done to the US large luxury sedan sales. That market has remained largely stagnant over the past 3-4 years at ~100-120K units, but Model S's has gained market share to ~50% at the expense of all other makes and models, including Merc's S-class and BMW's 7-series.
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/10/16...n-q3-us-sales/

Same story in Europe:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwin.../#2c8a78cb7588

Anyone wants to bet against Model 3 doing something similar to 3-series and i3 over the next few years?

I do see replacing BMW's with Tesla's over the next few years.
If that happens, it will be 100% BMW's fault for sitting on its ass and not providing a technologically competitive product offering.
And for having become less "cool" then Tesla.



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