[-c-]

It looks to be dead in the water.


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timei...3Fsource%3Ddam

[Kiwi]

As I have mentioned before. Plug in standard designed cars will sell, and will be a more practical EV including a petrol engine upfront or rear like the i3 which I like in design but not its driving ability. What the i3 needs is sports mod which stiffens up the steering and suspension. Then I would be interested in buying.

[Almaretto]

I was looking forward to an i5 that was closer the I012 than the I001.

[tommolog]

There's two ways to look at this. Perhaps BMW doesn't think there's enough demand for it, and to continue with the BMW i sub brand. Or, they realize they need to electrify there entire core brand, and stop "testing the waters" with the electric i cars that aren't really designed for high volume, mass appeal.

Personally, I think it's the latter, and we're going to see full electric versions of nearly every model for thier next generation refresh, starting with the X3 in 2019.

Look at recent reports about BMW holding meetings and warning their employees that electric cars (and Tesla in particular) are about the disrupt the entire industry and if BMW doesn't adjust quickly they will be in trouble.

That doesn't sound like they are getting ready to build less electric options.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by tommolog

There's two ways to look at this. Perhaps BMW doesn't think there's enough demand for it, and to continue with the BMW i sub brand. Or, they realize they need to electrify there entire core brand, and stop "testing the waters" with the electric i cars that aren't really designed for high volume, mass appeal.

Personally, I think it's the latter, and we're going to see full electric versions of nearly every model for thier next generation refresh, starting with the X3 in 2019.

Look at recent reports about BMW holding meetings and warning their employees that electric cars (and Tesla in particular) are about the disrupt the entire industry and if BMW doesn't adjust quickly they will be in trouble.

That doesn't sound like they are getting ready to build less electric options.

The 500 thousand pre orders showed theirs demand, they just need the right product.

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by tommolog

There's two ways to look at this. Perhaps BMW doesn't think there's enough demand for it, and to continue with the BMW i sub brand. Or, they realize they need to electrify there entire core brand, and stop "testing the waters" with the electric i cars that aren't really designed for high volume, mass appeal.

Personally, I think it's the latter, and we're going to see full electric versions of nearly every model for thier next generation refresh, starting with the X3 in 2019.

Look at recent reports about BMW holding meetings and warning their employees that electric cars (and Tesla in particular) are about the disrupt the entire industry and if BMW doesn't adjust quickly they will be in trouble.

That doesn't sound like they are getting ready to build less electric options.

I think it will be a few more generations before BMW can design an all electric that does not compromise the BMW drive experience.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by tommolog

There's two ways to look at this. Perhaps BMW doesn't think there's enough demand for it, and to continue with the BMW i sub brand. Or, they realize they need to electrify there entire core brand, and stop "testing the waters" with the electric i cars that aren't really designed for high volume, mass appeal.

Personally, I think it's the latter, and we're going to see full electric versions of nearly every model for thier next generation refresh, starting with the X3 in 2019.

I agree with your assessment, though believe BMW is dead wrong in it's approach.

BMW is on the record stating that they want every model to have a hybrid "e" option. That's a solid "back to the 90s" Prius-type strategy. Hybrids may be convenient to meet mileage standards in US and EU, but don't float the boat for people who want EVs. Nor do they make any financial sense.

Lets look at 330e.
In the US, the "e" hybrid option costs $10.5K over the base 330i model, and bumps the MPG from 30 to 38. Assuming premium gasoline cost of $2.50, it would require 598,500 miles to break even, or 39.9 years if you drive 15K miles/year.

This is just financially stupid.

330e gets 7.6 kWh battery, good for only 14 miles, if you are careful.
Pretty useless for anything, other than waiving a green flag in front of your friends...

Originally Posted by Almaretto

I think it will be a few more generations before BMW can design an all electric that does not compromise the BMW drive experience.

... by which point it will be far too late...

If Tesla doesn't eat it's lunch with Model 3 (it already has with Model S vs. 7-series), Mercedes, VW, and Toyota certainly will.

*sigh*

a

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by afadeev

... by which point it will be far too late...

*sigh*

a

I disagree. Enough people complain about BMW moving towards the comfort end of spectrum and sacrificing drive/steering. You rush into electric and they will alienate market.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

I agree with your assessment, though believe BMW is dead wrong in it's approach.

BMW is on the record stating that they want every model to have a hybrid "e" option. That's a solid "back to the 90s" Prius-type strategy. Hybrids may be convenient to meet mileage standards in US and EU, but don't float the boat for people who want EVs. Nor do they make any financial sense.

Lets look at 330e.
In the US, the "e" hybrid option costs $10.5K over the base 330i model, and bumps the MPG from 30 to 38. Assuming premium gasoline cost of $2.50, it would require 598,500 miles to break even, or 39.9 years if you drive 15K miles/year.

This is just financially stupid.

330e gets 7.6 kWh battery, good for only 14 miles, if you are careful.
Pretty useless for anything, other than waiving a green flag in front of your friends...

... by which point it will be far too late...

If Tesla doesn't eat it's lunch with Model 3 (it already has with Model S vs. 7-series), Mercedes, VW, and Toyota certainly will.

*sigh*

a

I may have interpreted your post wrong, But

How on earth can you compare the model S to the 7 series ? I can see a 5 series maybe.

The interior of that car (model s) is so poor in its execution it's a joke of a design.

My time with the i3 is coming to an end and contemplated getting a Tesla but just can't warm up to it. Its so 5 years ago and boring.

I just don't get people's love affair with it. Other than wiz bang gadgets it's design is long in the tooth and it's interior build quality is just ...ehhh...

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

I may have interpreted your post wrong, But
How on earth can you compare the model S to the 7 series ? I can see a 5 series maybe.

Easy - they compete for the same customers withing the "luxury sedan" market. The US is now seeing the same picture that developed in EU, where Model S is dominating that market. In the US, Model S is now selling more than 2x the rate of either 7-series or the S-class:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ry-sedan-sales

Originally Posted by -c-

The interior of that car (model s) is so poor in its execution it's a joke of a design.

I test drove Model S about a year ago, and new 5-series a few months ago (autoX-ed that one as well). 5-series has the standard conservative BMW interior, which I happen to like, but it didn't blow me away with anything. I don't recall any objections about the Model S interior. At least none that stand out in my memory right now.

Model S is a bit bigger than 5-series, but smaller than 7.
For me, those cars are way too large for my needs. 3-series is just about as large as I want to go right now (which is now the size of a 5er from a generation ago).

Originally Posted by -c-

My time with the i3 is coming to an end and contemplated getting a Tesla but just can't warm up to it. Its so 5 years ago and boring.

If you don't like the Model S, Model 3 is just a month away from being publicly available. I have my doubts about that car's interior, but I will reserve the judgement until I see it for myself.

If not i3 or Tesla, there is still a large and growing field of EVs on the market.
I spent time with GM's Bolt at NYAS. It's bland, and somehow, the driver seat has the support structure of a toilet seat.
Ford has two (poorly advertised) EVs (Fusion as C-max), but like eGolf and A3 e-tron, those are just standard production vehicle shells with EV drive train. Minimal extra effort was invested into designing anything unique for those EVs.

I haven't explored Huyndai IoniQ nor Prius Prime. Perhaps those could be worth a test drive.

a

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Easy - they compete for the same customers withing the "luxury sedan" market. The US is now seeing the same picture that developed in EU, where Model S is dominating that market. In the US, Model S is now selling more than 2x the rate of either 7-series or the S-class:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ry-sedan-sales

I test drove Model S about a year ago, and new 5-series a few months ago (autoX-ed that one as well). 5-series has the standard conservative BMW interior, which I happen to like, but it didn't blow me away with anything. I don't recall any objections about the Model S interior. At least none that stand out in my memory right now.

Model S is a bit bigger than 5-series, but smaller than 7.
For me, those cars are way too large for my needs. 3-series is just about as large as I want to go right now (which is now the size of a 5er from a generation ago).

If you don't like the Model S, Model 3 is just a month away from being publicly available. I have my doubts about that car's interior, but I will reserve the judgement until I see it for myself.

If not i3 or Tesla, there is still a large and growing field of EVs on the market.
I spent time with GM's Bolt at NYAS. It's bland, and somehow, the driver seat has the support structure of a toilet seat.
Ford has two (poorly advertised) EVs (Fusion as C-max), but like eGolf and A3 e-tron, those are just standard production vehicle shells with EV drive train. Minimal extra effort was invested into designing anything unique for those EVs.

I haven't explored Huyndai IoniQ nor Prius Prime. Perhaps those could be worth a test drive.

a

That's the problem, no other EV really is exciting enough really. Hence my problem.

May just buy another used i3 as their price is hard to argue....

But have driven the new 7 for a week the tesla interior is so bland it just feels like a supplier made interior to showcase their tech. There is just something lacking in its overall refinement.

They can say what they want but the amount of money and detail they have in the 7 series vs the S you can see it's in another class. That's all my point was not who buys what over what or who is taking sales away. It's just a better built and crafted car that's all. Plus all the creature comforts is also pretty nifty. I tend to favor AUDI design though vs BMW but like the way BMWs drive.

Still my favorite car is my r53 Cooper S !

I was Originally looking at getting a 5 series and ended up getting the i3 instead but that doesn't mean it's comparable just because it took a sale away from the 5 series. When you take a step back and really look at the model S it's not all that great, now with it falling on the CR list and all, funny thing is now that I've been looking at used teslas seems many have had to have their battery replaced and some even the electric motor has failed. Seems CR is on to something.

But again we will see. The model 3 is more of the same, same as the S and X but just a different sized sausage. They need to expand the diversity a bit more but I realize they are trying to make a family of products. But it's just been around for so long now that they need to stretch it.

Shit I may just go and buy a karma and regret that when it brakes lol..... the interior of that car also is weird so I keep finding myself in the same spot..... may just have to keep it to a used i3 for a while and see what develops over time.

I'm sure the next gen S will have better fit and finish as it was their first car and all, the roadster didn't count

And hopefully they design around an organic led panel that can be shaped to whatever vs another GIANT square in the dash! Maybe that is what keeps bothering me.....

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

That's the problem, no other EV really is exciting enough really. Hence my problem.

May just buy another used i3 as their price is hard to argue....

That's what I did when my MY'14 REX lease came due - got into another 24 month lease on MY'17 BEV to tide me over until the EV market sorts itself out a bit more.

Originally Posted by -c-

They can say what they want but the amount of money and detail they have in the 7 series vs the S you can see it's in another class. That's all my point was not who buys what over what or who is taking sales away. It's just a better built and crafted car that's all. Plus all the creature comforts is also pretty nifty.

OK.
I haven't been in a 7er in years.
Glad to hear BMW can still put together a competitive interior package.
Not that the one in my M3 is in any way deficient. It's just the same old classic BMW interior package, plus HUD.

Originally Posted by -c-

I tend to favor AUDI design though vs BMW but like the way BMWs drive.

Have you tried the A3 e-tron?
I haven't driven one, but did drive an S3 a few times, and found it to be fairly decent.

Originally Posted by -c-

When you take a step back and really look at the model S it's not all that great, now with it falling on the CR list and all, funny thing is now that I've been looking at used teslas seems many have had to have their battery replaced and some even the electric motor has failed. Seems CR is on to something.

I've heard second hand that Model S has had significant quality control issues. Both with supplier parts, as well as fit, finish, and durability.
I can't verify that first hand, nor am i in the market for a Model S.

Originally Posted by -c-

But again we will see. The model 3 is more of the same, same as the S and X but just a different sized sausage.

Interior will be WAY different.
So is the exterior.
Could be interesting. Not necessarily great, but certainly interesting.

Originally Posted by -c-

And hopefully they design around an organic led panel that can be shaped to whatever vs another GIANT square in the dash! Maybe that is what keeps bothering me.....

Rectangle in the bash bothers me in Teslas, but then again, it's omni-present in BMWs as well (i3 and 3-series).

I could live without a central screen for 95% of the time as long as the car has a decent and fully functional HUD.

Alas, Model 3 if rumored not to have one, at least not in the early release builds.

Either way, I can wait another ~18 months for the EV market to mature, while I'm driving my MY'17 BEV i3.



a

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

That's what I did when my MY'14 REX lease came due - got into another 24 month lease on MY'17 BEV to tide me over until the EV market sorts itself out a bit more.

OK.
I haven't been in a 7er in years.
Glad to hear BMW can still put together a competitive interior package.
Not that the one in my M3 is in any way deficient. It's just the same old classic BMW interior package, plus HUD.

Have you tried the A3 e-tron?
I haven't driven one, but did drive an S3 a few times, and found it to be fairly decent.

I've heard second hand that Model S has had significant quality control issues. Both with supplier parts, as well as fit, finish, and durability.
I can't verify that first hand, nor am i in the market for a Model S.

Interior will be WAY different.
So is the exterior.
Could be interesting. Not necessarily great, but certainly interesting.

Rectangle in the bash bothers me in Teslas, but then again, it's omni-present in BMWs as well (i3 and 3-series).

I could live without a central screen for 95% of the time as long as the car has a decent and fully functional HUD.

Alas, Model 3 if rumored not to have one, at least not in the early release builds.

Either way, I can wait another ~18 months for the EV market to mature, while I'm driving my MY'17 BEV i3.



a

Sounds good, Funny though as I may find myself in an S just because wife wants more room for the family... I hear you about the rectangles in the i3 and 3 series but at least it works better in a way, I like having the screen disappear like AUDI has in most their newer models, but the tesla was just huge and it kind of seemed the interior was designed around it in a way vs it working in harmony with its surroundings, it was just harsh for such an expensive car but like I said I may find myself in one just because my wife wants more room.... we shall see!

[TimeFor]

That's a bummer but if the costs were as projected at $120,000 then I wasn't going to be buying an i5 anyway. What we need is 80-100 mile EV range 5 series. I do like the eco friendly ground up approach of the i brand but I'd still buy a decent mile EV range G30 if that existed. The current 24 mile range one is pretty worthless.

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by TimeFor

That's a bummer but if the costs were as projected at $120,000 then I wasn't going to be buying an i5 anyway. What we need is 80-100 mile EV range 5 series. I do like the eco friendly ground up approach of the i brand but I'd still buy a decent mile EV range G30 if that existed. The current 24 mile range one is pretty worthless.

I completely missed that was price point. If so, I do not see them selling well.

For around the city, whether using Auto-EV or All electric, the range is fine. But, I would miss the HP of the F10 535i or G30 540i; I hope they come out with a 540e. If commutes consist of longer highway distances, diesel is a better bet.

It will definitely be interesting to see if Tesla can really be a market disrupter and where BMW's alternative fuels/engines go.

[TimeFor]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

I would miss the HP of the F10 535i or G30 540i; I hope they come out with a 540e. If commutes consist of longer highway distances, diesel is a better bet.

I did the ultimate driving experience in a 540xi and was actually kind of disappointed in the punchy-ness of the accelerate compared to my i3. Guess I'm spoiled now.

The 540 is plenty fast sure but it doesn't match the off the line punch you currently get in the i3. If they really did make a i5 with a focus on sport then it would really put the G30 to shame. I haven't tried the 530e to see if any of that punch is still there but I'm kind of doubting it with all that weight of the thing.

[Almaretto]

Originally Posted by TimeFor

I did the ultimate driving experience in a 540xi and was actually kind of disappointed in the punchy-ness of the accelerate compared to my i3. Guess I'm spoiled now.

The 540 is plenty fast sure but it doesn't match the off the line punch you currently get in the i3. If they really did make a i5 with a focus on sport then it would really put the G30 to shame. I haven't tried the 530e to see if any of that punch is still there but I'm kind of doubting it with all that weight of the thing.

I did UDE as well. I was not a fan of the 540iX, but liked the 540i. I did not find the i3 punchier, but have not spent enough time in it. The F10 AH has more HP and quicker initial acceleration due to electric motor, so it is possible the i5 would too.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

That's the problem, no other EV really is exciting enough really. Hence my problem.

May just buy another used i3 as their price is hard to argue....

Just found this article that summarizes Bolt, Ioniq, and Clarity pricing. The first two are interesting, the third one less so.

https://electrek.co/2017/06/11/honda...september-doa/

Given that all three are being setup for monthly lease payments in $269-$329 range, I would have seriously looked at all three before committing to my second i3, if those price points were on the market earlier this year...

Originally Posted by TimeFor

That's a bummer but if the costs were as projected at $120,000 then I wasn't going to be buying an i5 anyway.

I can't find any references to the $120K price point, but if true, it would have been a non-starter: Model S pricing without Model S technology and range == no sale.

Originally Posted by TimeFor

What we need is 80-100 mile EV range 5 series. I do like the eco friendly ground up approach of the i brand but I'd still buy a decent mile EV range G30 if that existed. The current 24 mile range one is pretty worthless.

I agree with most of the above sentiment, except that I would prefer to have a choice of a 200+ mile EV option. Not required, just optional and available.
Other than that:
1. Standard BMW model bodies work really well, with interior and exteriors refined over multiple model generations. Reusing them for EVs would not only cut costs, but make for an attractive well sorted out product!
2. 15-25 mile "hybrid" BMW EV range is a joke. And so is a $10+ mark-up for "hybrids". In the case of a 330e, the break-even cost from higher mileage from $10.5K "hybrid" package is 598K miles

3. BMW i-series downfall has been the obsession with expensive CF construction. Don't get me wrong, CF is cool. i3 caught my attention, in part, because of CF frame. But it's way too expensive and does not fit into BMW's unibody mass-production model line line-up. Quandt family owns BMW CF supplier, so forcing CF bodies onto BMW makes good financial sense for Quandts, but not necessarily the BMW.
4. Therefore, i3 and i8 are likely to remain one-offs. And thus, no i5.

Originally Posted by Almaretto

It will definitely be interesting to see if Tesla can really be a market disrupter and where BMW's alternative fuels/engines go.

I'm betting that it can do to 3-series what it did to 7-series sales and desirability with Model S.

a

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Just found this article that summarizes Bolt, Ioniq, and Clarity pricing. The first two are interesting, the third one less so.

https://electrek.co/2017/06/11/honda...september-doa/

Given that all three are being setup for monthly lease payments in $269-$329 range, I would have seriously looked at all three before committing to my second i3, if those price points were on the market earlier this year...

I can't find any references to the $120K price point, but if true, it would have been a non-starter: Model S pricing without Model S technology and range == no sale.

I agree with most of the above sentiment, except that I would prefer to have a choice of a 200+ mile EV option. Not required, just optional and available.
Other than that:
1. Standard BMW model bodies work really well, with interior and exteriors refined over multiple model generations. Reusing them for EVs would not only cut costs, but make for an attractive well sorted out product!
2. 15-25 mile "hybrid" BMW EV range is a joke. And so is a $10+ mark-up for "hybrids". In the case of a 330e, the break-even cost from higher mileage from $10.5K "hybrid" package is 598K miles

3. BMW i-series downfall has been the obsession with expensive CF construction. Don't get me wrong, CF is cool. i3 caught my attention, in part, because of CF frame. But it's way too expensive and does not fit into BMW's unibody mass-production model line line-up. Quandt family owns BMW CF supplier, so forcing CF bodies onto BMW makes good financial sense for Quandts, but not necessarily the BMW.
4. Therefore, i3 and i8 are likely to remain one-offs. And thus, no i5.

I'm betting that it can do to 3-series what it did to 7-series sales and desirability with Model S.

a

So after much deliberation I'm going to buy a used i3, to own the car outright for so little just is to enticing to pass up!!! found plenty of loaded models in a verity of colors between 15 and 20k miles for 15 to 20k dollars. And also containing the range extender if I want to go that route.

Monthly payment is only 160 to 220 a month with 0 down with a 1.25% interest rate. If I throw money at it, it just gets cheaper. Can't beat it!

[///Motivated]

Guys, it comes down to this. Established car companies are in the business to make money. CEOs are judged on their ability to make money. They lose their jobs when they don't. Tesla investors currently don't care if they make money because they are fanboys. Any of the OEMs could make a car that would best a Model X or Model S in technology and fit and finish if their respective CEOs wanted to sign up to lose thousands per car. They want to keep their jobs so they don't.

Tesla loses assloads of money selling their cars at the price they sell them for. I've seen elsewhere on this site a statement their gross margins exceed other established OEMs which is pure fanboy BS. GM is projected to lose $7-$9k on the Bolt at $37k msrp and somehow some startup in Silicon Valley with no negotiating power is going to MAKE money at $35k. How much Model 3 interest would their be at the $45k price point to break even or the $50k to match BMW's average profit (all in) of $5k per car???

It's pretty simple... engine/transmission combos are on the order of $2.5k. 60 kWh battery packs and motor combos are about $14k right now. You can't add $12k in content to a vehicle and sell it at a price that makes money. That's why you don't currently see the OEMs coming out with nifty products with great performance, range, fit and finish and at an affordable price.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by ///Motivated

Guys, it comes down to this. Established car companies are in the business to make money. CEOs are judged on their ability to make money. They lose their jobs when they don't. Tesla investors currently don't care if they make money because they are fanboys. Any of the OEMs could make a car that would best a Model X or Model S in technology and fit and finish if their respective CEOs wanted to sign up to lose thousands per car. They want to keep their jobs so they don't.

This is only partially correct.
While all public companies and their officers are legally obligated to maximize shareholder revenue, investing in EVs is another way of achieving that in the long term.

GM is loosing ~$9K/Bolt to earn ZEV credits in Cali and Oregon (aka "compliance cars"), and many other OEMs are following "compliance car" path as well (Fiat, Hyundai, etc).

However, none of them have the technology or competence to match, let alone best, Tesla in self driving tech.
Not even close, including BMW.

Originally Posted by ///Motivated

Tesla loses assloads of money selling their cars at the price they sell them for. I've seen elsewhere on this site a statement their gross margins exceed other established OEMs which is pure fanboy BS.

This is false.
Tesla's gross margin has been in 2x% range )18%-29%) for the past 16 quarters. These are the #s that only Porsche can come close to matching (target 15% gross margins):
http://marketrealist.com/2017/05/why...xpand-in-1q17/
https://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/gross_profit_margin

Tesla's, net margins (net of investments into plan in equipment, and Satisfactory) are negative. But that is because it chooses to reinvest the profits into its own PP&E. Tesla's assets have grown from $1 Billion to $16 Billion US dollars in 4 years, mostly representing investment into Gigafactory and plant upgrades in Fremont. That investment is what fuels future growth.

If you disagree with the data, please share your sources, and please keep the emotions in check.

Originally Posted by ///Motivated

It's pretty simple... engine/transmission combos are on the order of $2.5k. 60 kWh battery packs and motor combos are about $14k right now. You can't add $12k in content to a vehicle and sell it at a price that makes money.

And how do you know that?
Are you Tesla's CFO? or GM's?

Originally Posted by ///Motivated

That's why you don't currently see the OEMs coming out with nifty products with great performance, range, fit and finish and at an affordable price.

That's false as well.
See Bolt and Ioniq that came out within last 6 months. Add Model 3 out within a month.
More to come from MB and VW, in pass.

All are nifty, all have greater range than i3, all are priced in $3*.xxx range.

Just not BMW.


a

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by Almaretto

I completely missed that was price point. If so, I do not see them selling well.

For around the city, whether using Auto-EV or All electric, the range is fine. But, I would miss the HP of the F10 535i or G30 540i; I hope they come out with a 540e. If commutes consist of longer highway distances, diesel is a better bet.

It will definitely be interesting to see if Tesla can really be a market disrupter and where BMW's alternative fuels/engines go.

My i3 is much faster and smoother around the city than my M2 was.