[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by -c-

Lol . Oh come on now can't we all agree to disagree . We are on a BMW forum after all so you will have BMW super fans where everything else is garbage, plus for some strange reason their are people out their that want tesla to fail. I don't have any idea as to why but I've never knew a car company where I've met people where they are simply enamored with them or they have nothing but the worst to say and want them to go under to a startling degree, now I am critical of them as I'm am invested in their company but to me their a great American company that I want to pull through. We need more technology companies like tesla in this country and if they can pull it off then who knows what they will accomplish. Plus what they do pull off only makes the other companies better, the bolt, i3, i8, leaf the whole lot of them will improve because of what they do and we can thank tesla for that, competition to best one another is grand.

I am really chill until i come across some pompous ass who is one-sided in his mindset, regardless if we might share the same beach. And yes I think we BMW owners can all get along if we try hard enough.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

I am really chill until i come across some pompous ass who is one-sided in his mindset, regardless if we might share the same beach. And yes I think we BMW owners can all get along if we try hard enough.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by -c-

Meanwhile back on topic...I think Elon just broke the mold on how to sell a car today.

Bam!

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Meanwhile back on topic...I think Elon just broke the mold on how to sell a car today.

Bam!

The amazing thing, to me, is that there was this pent up demand for EVs all along.
Yet, somehow, only Model 3 managed to hit just the right spot with 325K pre-orders worldwide as of 4/7.
That's roughly 1/2 of the worldwide EV sales in 2015:



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...since_2011.png

a

[nicknaz]

I put in an deposit as well and will be curious to see how things evolve. The Porsche Mission E is the one that I'm super curious about, and the i5 renderings look great.

2018-2019 EV market is looking awesome

BTW, I tried to lease an i3 BEV in March (i.e. a few weeks ago) and it was a no go. Dealer couldn't find one for an extended test drive and lease credit wasn't available anymore so it was expensive

[Needsdecaf]

So, I will preface this by saying that I am a Tesla fan. I have driven the Model S several times including a 24 hour test drive that turned out to be a little longer...and almost 250 miles.

I like the looks of the Model 3. However, the no grille front is odd. The model S is more successful with the faux grille.

The horizontal touchpad...well, I'm not sure. The vertical pad is great. Anyone who says it's an ergonomic nightmare simply hasn't spent time driving one. After 5 minutes even my wife had mastered using it while driving. But the vertical orientation means nothing is far away from reach. Worry about that with the horizontal.

Hate the lack of dash display. Never seen this work on any car (center speedo). Plus, placing it in the corner of a screen means distractions galore. Dumb.

Worry about the size, but reserve judgement until I sit on it. The Model S is tighter than a 5 series, I hope that the 3 isn't smaller than a BMW 3. Again, will wait to see in person.

Last but not lease, right now it's still vapor ware. With deliveries not even scheduled to start for 18 months, specs and trims not set, well, Elon can wait to get my money until I drive one. And drive one I will. I really debated getting a Model S but at $100k for even a nicely equipped 70D, the car just doesn't feel,like that price point. And I'm not rich enough to overpay without caring.

I really hope this car materializes. The Model S is an amazing car and makes other cars look like dinosaurs. The Autopilot is absolutely spectacular. The car drives amazingly well.

We shall see

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

So, I will preface this by saying that I am a Tesla fan. I have driven the Model S several times including a 24 hour test drive that turned out to be a little longer...and almost 250 miles.

I like the looks of the Model 3. However, the no grille front is odd. The model S is more successful with the faux grille.

The horizontal touchpad...well, I'm not sure. The vertical pad is great. Anyone who says it's an ergonomic nightmare simply hasn't spent time driving one. After 5 minutes even my wife had mastered using it while driving. But the vertical orientation means nothing is far away from reach. Worry about that with the horizontal.

Hate the lack of dash display. Never seen this work on any car (center speedo). Plus, placing it in the corner of a screen means distractions galore. Dumb.

Worry about the size, but reserve judgement until I sit on it. The Model S is tighter than a 5 series, I hope that the 3 isn't smaller than a BMW 3. Again, will wait to see in person.

Last but not lease, right now it's still vapor ware. With deliveries not even scheduled to start for 18 months, specs and trims not set, well, Elon can wait to get my money until I drive one. And drive one I will. I really debated getting a Model S but at $100k for even a nicely equipped 70D, the car just doesn't feel,like that price point. And I'm not rich enough to overpay without caring.

I really hope this car materializes. The Model S is an amazing car and makes other cars look like dinosaurs. The Autopilot is absolutely spectacular. The car drives amazingly well.

We shall see

I agree on many points except for the loss of tactile buttons, it may work for you but data shows muscle memory doesn't work with touch screen. Our ergonomic / human factors dept. keeps such things from totally taking over, stuff like this is a nightmare for them, believe me as a designer we fight for this stuff but during simulations when we study people and track eye movement and time off road their is an impact and it's a safety concern. In my current cars I can control heated seats, mirror functions, Hvac and stereo all without taking my eyes off the road and using muscle memory. Yes eyes are off to adjust mirrors and such but it's one step not two. We have all been in situations where cars in front of us stop for no reason at all and all those split second reactions can save us from accidents.



Think about it you could dial old phones without even looking at it since it had buttons, now do the same with a flat piece of glass, not everyone can do it without looking at the screen

Now how the LCD screen is worked out is very important and keeps distractions to a minimum but it's hard to argue hard data vs. opinion.

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Meanwhile back on topic...I think Elon just broke the mold on how to sell a car today.

Bam!

Now if only Tesla can make a profit before it goes under!

[ORIGIN M.]

^ No Soup for you. Come back 1 year!

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

I agree on many points except for the loss of tactile buttons, it may work for you but data shows muscle memory doesn't work with touch screen. Our ergonomic / human factors dept. keeps such things from totally taking over, stuff like this is a nightmare for them

I half agree with the assertion that physical buttons are easier to use than virtual, but there is also a strong negative correlation between the quantity of physical buttons and the ease of use.

The complexity of modern cars has all but required a migration to iDrive or touch-screen type interfaces.
There are just far too many options to configure, and installing physical buttons for all of them is both expensive and impractical. At some point, having too many buttons confuses more than it simplifies, and becomes a joke (Porsche tranny tunnel, Mustang's phone dial pad buttons):




Each automaker is doing their best to find the right balance between virtual and physical buttons ratio. BMW's iDrive was the first to go into majority virtual menu spectrum. People promptly hated iDrive when it first came out. Now it's praised as one of the better UI implementations.

About ~90% of the features and configuration are hidden within iDrive, with only ~10% accessible via dedicated buttons.

Tesla takes it to ~95% touch-screen.
BMW's iDrive is rumored to be going into the touch-screen direction with MY'17 as well.
The trend is clear, even if your ergonomics department is resisting it...

a

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

Now if only Tesla can make a profit before it goes under!

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

I half agree with the assertion that physical buttons are easier to use than virtual, but the complexity of modern cars have all but required a migration to iDrive or touch-screen type interfaces.

There are just far too many options to configure, and installing physical buttons for all of them is both expensive and impractical. At some point, having too many buttons confuses more than it simplifies, and becomes a joke (Porsche tranny tunnel, Mustang's phone dial pad buttons):
[IMG]https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/atta...59-jpg.100876/[/IMG]
[IMG]http://skatepride.com/wp-content/upl...-Wallpaper.jpg[/IMG]
Each automaker is doing their best to find the right balance between virtual and physical buttons ratio. BMW's iDrive was the first to go into majority virtual menu spectrum. People promptly hated iDrive when it first came out. Now it's praised as one of the better UI implementations.

About ~90% of the features and configuration are hidden within iDrive, with only ~10% accessible via dedicated buttons.

Tesla takes it to ~95% touch-screen.
The trend is clear, even if your ergonomics department is resisting it...

a

Lol that I completely agree with theirs always a right amount.

But the basics should be their

I personally hate touch screen as I love a clean interior and hate greasy fingerprinted screen and like the dial interface as my arm is not distended trying to tap options on screen.

We have found also during drives, especially on sports cars the driver gets frustrated trying to hit options on screen as their hands jump around in rough pavement so we design the GUI to account for that but it's still far from perfect.

Trends are trends for that reason their hot then they loose their appeal.

Theirs a quality aspect to good and well done buttons, all in a touch screen is stupid and starts to cheapen the car. Looks cheap and boring. One of the reasons I hate the model s interior so much is it looks cheap for an 80k dollar car, design looks like a supplier up to showcase the technology. Audi interiors win awards time and time again as they have a good balance of technology and traditional buttons and just beautiful fit and finish. It jewelry.

The human factors guys want to keep their job so yea their gonna hate that stuff anyway.

I can tell you tesla is a small company that isn't stuck in the mud with years and years of legacy like many others so their not bogged down with it but they still need their basics.

The majority will not be going that route as customers have stated they don't want everything on a screen so that's what keeps us from going that route also. Teslas a small fraction of customers who don't care and are forward thinking so their open to try new things. Majority of the population isn't interested in everything on a monitor, especially if the monitor fails.

The least the model 3 should have is a HUD if they want to get rid of the cluster.

Let them try new stuff, it will either do well or fail, I do however see a lot of tesla people acting like apple people where even if the company makes something that is questionable they trip over each other to be the first to get it and that they can do no wrong.

Silly really. No company is immune from making mistakes. I'm holding my bets as to think what we saw was more of a prototype interior anyway and hopefully their will be some upgrades.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

[IMG]https://cdn.meme.am/instances/58131827.jpg[/IMG]

As much as you hate his way of thinking he's right, they need the model 3 launch to work out and be a home run if they want to continue.

With the model 3 reveal being more of a cash infusion tactic to further the cars development they can't afford this product not to be a home run, the fact that they still can't meet production promises on a car that they have been building for a few years now raises concerns that they won't be able to meet demands for the model 3.

Not telling you anything you don't already know but it's important for this launch to go well for teslas future.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

The least the model 3 should have is a HUD if they want to get rid of the cluster.

Agree completely.
The HUD in my M3 is absolutely awesome, and the best UI breakthrough in a while.
I dim the instrument cluster way down, along with turning nav screen completely off at night, and drive 100% by HUD. Even at daytime I hardly ever glance at IC anymore.

HUD was especially helpful in Germany during ED pickup, navigating foreign, narrow roads, in the dark.

The difference between HUD and regular Nav screen is roughly the delta between Nav screen and navigating by paper map.
Every car should get a HUD, and deprecate the IC!

Originally Posted by -c-

No company is immune from making mistakes. I'm holding my bets as to think what we saw was more of a prototype interior anyway and hopefully their will be some upgrades.

Probably true.
Neither the exterior nor the interior are likely to be finalized at this time.
Nor should they be, more than 12 months ahead of SOP.

a

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Agree completely.
The HUD in my M3 is absolutely awesome, and the best UI breakthrough in a while.
I dim the instrument cluster way down, along with turning nav screen completely off at night, and drive 100% by HUD. Even at daytime I hardly ever glance at IC anymore.

HUD was especially helpful in Germany during ED pickup, navigating foreign, narrow roads, in the dark.

The difference between HUD and regular Nav screen is roughly the delta between Nav screen and navigating by paper map.
Every car should get a HUD, and deprecate the IC!

Probably true.
Neither the exterior nor the interior are likely to be finalized at this time.
Nor should they be, more than 12 months ahead of SOP.

a

WORD! Yea I'd buy the HUD concept, who knows maybe they will do just that.

I figure they just gave the public a taste to judge reaction and get the beat up, it worked so now they must execute.

It will be exciting to see how it develops over the next few years.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

You need to give up crack or back away from the crack pipe or a combo of both.

Just because you think all that crap, does not make it so. Tesla Hater,,, that you are!

Musk just raised 7.5B in 3 days. Next /

Yeah, I know Elon said $7.5B, but any way I dice the numbers, 250K - 300K pre-order agreements @$1K a piece ($250M - $350M), and stock volume and share price ($336M), I just can't come up with $7.5 Billion.

I like what the guy is doing, but some of it smells a bit of snake oil.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

As much as you hate his way of thinking he's right, they need the model 3 launch to work out and be a home run if they want to continue.

I don't see it that way.
Model 3 needs to be a success to prop up equity valuation above $30B, but even if only 1/5 of the pre-orders translate into actual sales, the Model 3 project will have been a success.

The real drain on TSLA cash flow and capital is the gigafactory, and that project can pay off by selling batteries to multiple customers, including plenty outside of TSLA product portfolio. In other words, Model 3 needs gigafactory to succeed, but gigafactory and Tesla can succeed without Model 3. Not that there is much of a chance of that problem arising, given the volume of pre-orders.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, I know Elon said $7.5B, but any way I dice the numbers, 250K - 300K pre-order agreements @$1K a piece ($250M - $350M), and stock volume and share price ($336M), I just can't come up with $7.5 Billion.

300K pre-orders for $45K car (yeah, $35K list, but options will add up) = $13.5B.
Assume 50% of the pre-orders will get cancelled, and you are down to $7B in revenue over 1-2 years (starting in 2018) for just this one new product.
Not bad for any company that had $4B of revenue the previous year (2015).

Originally Posted by -c-

With the model 3 reveal being more of a cash infusion tactic to further the cars development they can't afford this product not to be a home run, the fact that they still can't meet production promises on a car that they have been building for a few years now raises concerns that they won't be able to meet demands for the model 3.

You are right, they wont.
At least not at the level of pre-orders, not for years to come. That will inevitably disappoint some customers who will pull out their deposits and buy something else.
Not ideal, but all things considered, a wonderful problem to have for any company - excessive demand for its products!

And not a problem that BMW is having with its i3 line of cars.

Either way, this is a BMW i3 message board.
Lets hope that BMW finds a way to respond with an i5 earlier than 2020 (i3, sadly, may be a lost cause).

a

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

I don't see it that way.
Model 3 needs to be a success to prop up equity valuation above $30B, but even if only 1/5 of the pre-orders translate into actual sales, the Model 3 project will have been a success.

The real drain on TSLA cash flow and capital is the gigafactory, and that project can pay off by selling batteries to multiple customers, including plenty outside of TSLA product portfolio. In other words, Model 3 needs gigafactory to succeed, but gigafactory and Tesla can succeed without Model 3. Not that there is much of a chance of that problem arising, given the volume of pre-orders.

300K pre-orders for $45K car (year, $35K list, but options will add up) = $13.5B.
Assume 50% of the pre-orders will get cancelled, and you are down to $7B in revenue over 1-2 years (starting in 2018) for just this one new product.
Not bad for any company that had $4B of revenue the previous year (2015).

You are right, they wont.
At least not at the level of pre-orders, not for years to come. That will inevitably disappoint some customers who will pull out their deposits and buy something else.
Not ideal, but all things considered, a wonderful problem to have for any company - excessive demand for its products!

And not a problem that BMW is having with it's i3 line of cars.

Either way, this is a BMW i3 message board.
Lets hope that BMW finds a way to respond with an i5 earlier than 2020 (i3, sadly, may be a lost cause).

a

Yea point taken, I know you ain't nobody's fool

The only problem with pre-orders you cant guarantee them as sales, as lives change daily. On our product pre launch day we received over 600 orders (we develop low volume vehicles) . So 600 orders on the first day was record setting for us but sadly as production day arrived it dipped back to around 400, not bad either way but when your charging a quarter of a million per vehicle things change and you can't just bank on those numbers till you get cash in hand. 35k for a car is quite different but at 300k orders that could be a 3 or 4 year waiting list and as we know one thing about Americans they hate waiting so they could have people pull out in droves, all speculation of course but I'm just playing devils advocate here, as an investor in their company I want them to do nothing but sell and people to buy and for them to grow but also I can't just sit and look at them with rose colored glasses either. They have quite a hill to climb and with the right pillars in place I also think they can pull it off but their is still risks that are very real.

Investors want to see things change they won't allow tesla to keep loosing money, heck Porsche got bought because they couldn't turn a profit, hell in our business theirs billionaires wanting a piece of the pie and we're always wondering if we will be bought at some point.

See everything is an "if" right now the only fact we have is that Tesla is loosing a billion a year, the model 3 is a beacon of hope if anything. People need something to believe in, I'm hoping that they can become profitable without needing the giga factory to stay alive as that would mean that tesla cars in its own right fails to make money. They should all make money and combined be a power house. I just hope people keep believing and give them time to work out the kinks.



By the way the i3 may not be the car BMW wants it to be in its current form but you have to remember, as a designer we are guessing at what we think the customer wants.

it's like Samsung and Apple, Samsung asks its customers what they want and they make it, Apple tells the customer what they want as to them the customer doesn't know what they don't know, both work but one is riskier than the other but one avenue also allows for more advancement.
the i3 was a design statement that was going to sell in low volume but ended up selling in far lower volume than what they wanted. The newer generation i3's will change I'm sure to something that is more main stream with higher range.

If you look at the i3 on just materials alone it spanks anything tesla has, they just need to make it sexy which doesn't cost anything, that's the designers job, and give it range that competes and you will have a winner.

[-c-]

By the way did you see the newly refreshed model s front end? Took more of a model 3 / model X front end now. Not sure if I'm a fan, def not a wow ! More of an eh..... Technically they don't need one, but for a whole new facia and headlight they could have updated it more.

Headlight looks cool but it's the same shape. :/

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

By the way did you see the newly refreshed model s front end? Took more of a model 3 / model X front end now. Not sure if I'm a fan, def not a wow ! More of an eh..... Technically they don't need one, but for a whole new facia and headlight they could have updated it more.

Headlight looks cool but it's the same shape. :/

You mean this:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...grille-opening

I have to confess - the grill-less front end is still growing on me. Not because I find it visually distasteful, rather, because I'm used to seeing it there, and its absence is intuitively disconcerting.

I can get used to grill-less designs, though the one on Model S's proportions make it easier to swallow than Model X's:
http://www.teslarati.com/details-beh...odel-s-update/

It will certainly make car easier to wash ;-)

a

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

You mean this:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...grille-opening

I have to confess - the grill-less front end is still growing on me. Not because I mind it visually distasteful, rather, because I'm used to seeing it there, and its absence is intuitively disconcerting.

I can get used to grill-less designs, though the one on Model S's proportions make it easier to swallow than Model X's:
http://www.teslarati.com/details-beh...odel-s-update/

It will certainly make car easier to wash ;-)

a

Yea it is a cleaner design but since it's the face of the car I think we as customers are accustom to seeing a grill and without one seems odd. Kind of like the EV1 reminded me of the face of the aliens on Independence Day (ID4)

It didn't have a mouth and looked odd.
But I think their where some designs people did where they reworked that upturned nose and it worked rather well.

But it's all relative and don't think it will make buyers walk but just wish maybe they could have stretched the design a bit more since it's a refresh and borrows to much from the X and 3
Never liked when they started making the more expensive car look like the cheaper car.

Like the new charger looked more like a big dart after its refresh.

Yea getting rid of the nooks and crannies is good for a slippery shape and clean ability but hey your not mudding it around

I'm glad they at least put something their instead of the completely grill less design of the 3, It's possible the 3 will have this treatment as well so they all have a family appearance.

Like the kidney grills on BMW's

[AndreyATC]

400,000 orders and counting...
That's just crazy
rEVolution is coming

P.S. Regarding muscle memory and touchscreen.
It works just fine
My hand easily finds desired command on the screen without looking
Just like I know where to push the icons on my iPhone
It's light years easier than dozens of confusing buttons

Blackberry style is so last century