[jadnashuanh]

How often in daily driving do you need more power than the i8 has, especially if you want to keep your license?

For some people, the i3 is perfect with no range anxiety at all. My typical trip is less than 10-miles, not an issue on the i3, and a real drag to a typical ICE. I still do not see the Tesla as an only car unless you only ever drive within range of their superstations. Personally, I do not like those restrictions, nor do I want to spend that much money on a car.

[MalibuBimmer]

The Model X has no firm delivery date. It's already been delayed two years. So anybody who orders a Model X now and doesn't have another car will be walking or calling Uber.

I suspect the Model X can't be produced for less than the Model S. If so, Tesla is in deeper trouble than its half a billion dollar a year money burn would indicate. It's betting it can produce the Model X for half the cost of a Model S. An ambitious bet.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

So, you've driven one, nicknaz? Also, there are some people who can afford to buy and own many cars. The i8 is just one of them.

But I'm interested in your opinions about the driving qualities of the car, and I'm sure you have well thought out opinions about that. Please proceed nicknaz . . .

I'm not going to bother driving it, since all that would be doing is confirming that it isn't for me. In that price category I am expecting more than just some social affirmation/lifestyle signalling.

I am targeting trap speeds in the 130mph+ range and cooling system capability for the desert heat that the car will be tracked in. (The M3 in my avatar is my car, on the front straight of Spa-Francorchamp. I like going to the track)

The i8 is disqualified from my consideration since it can't meet those key criteria.

Are you surprised though that some (like myself) won't understand the i8 and would rather get a traditional high power sports car for that money?


EDIT: Anyway, sorry for taking us off topic... My wife is fairly sold on the i3, and I will be requesting one as a loaner the next time my M3 comes in for servicing. Hope it works out that we like driving it, since I am pretty sold on a BEV commuter

[Epirali]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I'm not going to bother driving it, since all that would be doing is confirming that it isn't for me. In that price category I am expecting more than just some social affirmation/lifestyle signalling.

I am targeting trap speeds in the 130mph+ range and cooling system capability for the desert heat that the car will be tracked in. (The M3 in my avatar is my car, on the front straight of Spa-Francorchamp. I like going to the track)

The i8 is disqualified from my consideration since it can't meet those key criteria.

Are you surprised though that some (like myself) won't understand the i8 and would rather get a traditional high power sports car for that money?

No it's not surprising, to each their own. What is surprising is your authoritative labeling of a car you haven't even driven and labeling of why the owners choose it, when you pretty much have zero experience with it. That is VERY different than just saying it's not for me.

That would be like me saying people who like the M3 are just loud dbags who can't afford a real sports car. But I've never driven one and it's not for me because it doesn't meet my boat towing needs.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Epirali

No it's not surprising, to each their own. What is surprising is your authoritative labeling of a car you haven't even driven and labeling of why the owners choose it, when you pretty much have zero experience with it. That is VERY different than just saying it's not for me.

That would be like me saying people who like the M3 are just loud dbags who can't afford a real sports car. But I've never driven one and it's not for me because it doesn't meet my boat towing needs.

Sure fair point I could have been more politically correct about voicing my opinion since this is the i3/i8 subforum.

by the way, good reason for you not to have an M3 then. Not a great boat tower

side note, an interesting stat I've seen kicked around is that 80% of GT3 are driven on the track, so by extension 20% are driven for styling/lifestyle/social affirmation purposes/etc as well

[Epirali]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Sure fair point I could have been more politically correct about voicing my opinion since this is the i3/i8 subforum.

by the way, good reason for you not to have an M3 then. Not a great boat tower.

side note, an interesting stat I've seen kicked around is that 80% of GT3 are driven on the track, so by extension 20% are driven for styling/lifestyle/social affirmation purposes/etc as well

It has nothing to do with political correctness. It's about putting motivation on others without asking them, and without knowing the car. I think it's just wrong.

I think you are very correct that many people drive many cars for, as you say, styling/lifestyle/social affirmation. I would say anyone who has that motivation can get much more bang for the buck from many other cars at the price of the i8.

[jadnashuanh]

The i8 was never designed for track use...using full power for long periods straight will mean there's little energy left to keep the batteries charged up, and performance will decrease since you'd be limited to the ICE only motivation. Same idea with the i3 REx...if you insist on trying to eke out every last mile on the thing while blasting down the road at high speeds, it will eventually disappoint you since the REx can't keep up with the load, and the battery will continue to draw down verses being maintained.

But, for more typical driving, either car works quite well for its intended purpose. I have to say, at my age and physical condition, getting out of the i8 takes some practice, and getting in is more like falling into a big hole than gracefully entering a car.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by jadnashuanh

But, for more typical driving, either car works quite well for its intended purpose. I have to say, at my age and physical condition, getting out of the i8 takes some practice, and getting in is more like falling into a big hole than gracefully entering a car.

I completely agree on the physical challenges of using i8 as a daily driver car. Having crawled all over the i8, as well as repeatedly in and out of it at NYAS pre-opening, I would need to stretch every morning before getting into one. If I was a female and wore skirts, there would be no graceful way in our out of the car without flashing passer-by's...

Originally Posted by jadnashuanh

How often in daily driving do you need more power than the i8 has, especially if you want to keep your license?

That question would never come to the mind of a car guy
I would say anything below 1,000 hp will adequate, and above them may be a touch too much

In the words of BMW CEO (when asked "why people in countries with speed limits buy a high-performance BMW"): "The pleasure of driving our cars is not just confined to driving at top speed."

The ease with which F80 M3 devours traffic is more appreciable in under 50 mph situations, then those above 80 mph (allegedly). 400+ lb.ft. of torque are blissfully addicting (more like 500+ if you believe dyno's more than BMW).
Tesla P85 has 443 lb.ft.
Tesla P90D AWD has 687 lb.ft.
i3 has 181 lb.ft...

a

[jadnashuanh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

The ease with which F80 M3 devours traffic is more appreciable in under 50 mph situations, then those above 80 mph (allegedly). 400+ lb.ft. of torque are blissfully addicting (more like 500+ if you believe dyno's more than BMW).
Tesla P85 has 443 lb.ft.
Tesla P90D AWD has 687 lb.ft.
i3 has 181 lb.ft...

a

Most people would not be in EV mode only on their i8 if they were interested in performance! Torque with both the EV and the ICE max out at 470lb.ft, and unlike an ICE alone, the EV portion is available at zero RPM. And, the i8 is lighter than all of those vehicles, making the power and torque more compelling as well. Power/weight, the i8 is up there.

[afadeev]

Look at who had blockbuster sales month in September - i3's had the best EVER month with 1,710 cars going into customer hands and garages:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

Nice.

a

P.S.: I will go on a limb here and predict that the next month will be a dud

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Epirali

I believe Washington state is trying out a road use tax by the mile. This may replace or supplement gas tax for road construction, etc.

But as social policy I strongly believe that gasoline should be taxed heavily while alternative energy sources should be subsidized until they catch on and things even out. Even at that point we should have disincentives for gasoline usage for both environmental and political reasons.

You must live in Bethesda...

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by afadeev

P.S.: I will go on a limb here and predict that the next month will be a dud

Kaboom - October sales (986) were down to almost half of those in September (1710).

Sorry, but I'm not buying the supply chain shortage or gas price fluctuations are explanations for this extraordinary month-to-month sales volatility.
I'm beginning to suspect there is something fundamentally goofy with the way BMW NA is reporting sales...

[Rekla]

What is the definition of a 'sale'?
BMW NA stocks up dealer inventory - cars that sit on dealer lots and at that point are 'owned' (read financed) by the dealers - that can be considered a sale from BMW NA to dealers and a reflection of the numbers you see posted. Then dealers sell *some* of these inventory cars to consumers and that sale is final upon title registration. I always wondered about the 'inflated' sales numbers BMW NA posts - are those title registrations or more like production numbers of units delivered to dealer lots. My local dealers seem to have a ton of i3s in 'stock'...

[afadeev]

The latest from BMW AG board member on i3 sales: "while demand for the BMW i8 is extremely high, its lower-priced, more mainstream stablemate, the BMW i3, is not seeing the level of demand that BMW expected"

http://insideevs.com/soft-demand-limits-bmw-i3-sales/

a

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Rekla

What is the definition of a 'sale'?
BMW NA stocks up dealer inventory - cars that sit on dealer lots and at that point are 'owned' (read financed) by the dealers - that can be considered a sale from BMW NA to dealers and a reflection of the numbers you see posted.

The is partly true in the sense that "sale" counts when dealer takes on the inventory. Alas, BMW NA can't force dealers to buy the cars they don't want. If i3's weren't selling, dealer's would not be ordering new ones from BMWN NA to stock them.

By the end of 2015, dealers had ~2,000 i3s on hand.
Given the 11,024 i3s sold throughout the year, that's about 2.2 months worth of inventory, on average. That's roughly inline with industry averages (see page 13):
http://www.nadafrontpage.com/upload/...DAData2014.pdf

Originally Posted by Rekla

I always wondered about the 'inflated' sales numbers BMW NA posts - are those title registrations or more like production numbers of units delivered to dealer lots. My local dealers seem to have a ton of i3s in 'stock'...

Official statistics count model maker 'sale' when a car is moved off BMW NA balance sheet to that of the dealer. If you assume ~2 month average inventory holding time, the 'sale' would, on average, precede title (end owner) registration by ~2 months.

A few years ago MB USA complained that it lost US luxury sales title to BMW based on dealer 'sales', but was a few hundred ahead based on end owner registrations. However, both numbers where within a few thousands of each other relative to ~350K vehicles sold by each.

That is NOT to say that the numbers are 'inflated'.
No dealership would remain in business without inventory, and managing and replenishing it (intelligently) is their responsibility. If they are ordering more i3's for their inventory, it's because either they are observing or anticipating greater demand.
Inventory costs money, and no independent business (as all dealers are in the US) would waste money by holding excess inventory.

a

[-c-]

Originally Posted by afadeev

The is partly true in the sense that "sale" counts when dealer takes on the inventory. Alas, BMW NA can't force dealers to buy the cars they don't want. If i3's weren't selling, dealer's would not be ordering new ones from BMWN NA to stock them.

By the end of 2015, dealers had ~2,000 i3s on hand.
Given the 11,024 i3s sold throughout the year, that's about 2.2 months worth of inventory, on average. That's roughly inline with industry averages (see page 13):
http://www.nadafrontpage.com/upload/...DAData2014.pdf

Official statistics count model maker 'sale' when a car is moved off BMW NA balance sheet to that of the dealer. If you assume ~2 month average inventory holding time, the 'sale' would, on average, precede title (end owner) registration by ~2 months.

A few years ago MB USA complained that it lost US luxury sales title to BMW based on dealer 'sales', but was a few hundred ahead based on end owner registrations. However, both numbers where within a few thousands of each other relative to ~350K vehicles sold by each.

That is NOT to say that the numbers are 'inflated'.
No dealership would remain in business without inventory, and managing and replenishing it (intelligently) is their responsibility. If they are ordering more i3's for their inventory, it's because either they are observing or anticipating greater demand.
Inventory costs money, and no independent business (as all dealers are in the US) would waste money by holding excess inventory.

a

Yep and after a few weeks the dealers start to pay interest on those vehicles. So they don't over stock if they can help it.

Certain cars they won't even stock on the lots because the sales are so few that they wait for the customers to order it before the dealer will even entertain getting it.
Theirs a Cadillac dealer near me that won't stock the ELR Cadillac because the last one they had took over 9 months to sell it. They can't give them away. At least where I am. come to think of it .... Anybody seen an ELR on the road? I've seen more i3 and not one ELR.

[afadeev]

i3 + i8 2015 sales have exceeded 29K world-wide (24,057 i3's + 5,456 i8's), 13K in the US (11,024 i3's + 2,265 i8's)

http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_pro...nuar_2016.html

[plymjack]

it takes time for a new market to grow. The i3 is a great city car, and really would suit 90% of people but getting them to see that is a long haul. Te recent fall in oil price wont help.... but with time users will see the benefits, unless the bottom does fall out of the oil market!

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by plymjack

it takes time for a new market to grow. The i3 is a great city car, and really would suit 90% of people but getting them to see that is a long haul. Te recent fall in oil price wont help.... but with time users will see the benefits, unless the bottom does fall out of the oil market!

Yep, it's been a brutal start to 2016.
182 cars sold in Jan.
248 cars sold in Feb.

That's 430 cars over 2 months, below VW eGolf, Fiat 500e, and even BMW X5 40e.
Just terrible sales.

Roughly 1/4 of the sales rate in the first two months of 2015 vs. moderately growing EV market in the US overall.

So it's not a function of lower gas prices (though those can't help), since the rest of the EV market is still growing.

Since i8 sales are also suddenly way down, could this have something to do with supply chain over-stuffing by BMW NA to make 2015 sales look better than they objectively were ?

a

[ORIGIN M.]

People are waiting on the larger battery and the i3-S !!!

[Kiwi]

People are not waiting for larger batteries as patrol cars and trucks are back big time. BMW might as well close up their factory until oil if ever gets back up to its crazy price of $126.

American companies will flood the market with oil if the price moves up just to get their money back and of course oil will drop again and may be even lower than $26.

If you think battery cars will keep running free on roads without paying their share of roading tax you are mistaken.

The ones who leased their i3's will be a lot better off financially than those who purchased the i3 out right.

I'm not trying to run down the i3 or BMW but we are in a totally different world now with the oil price and you should know now never be the first to move on buying anything new like the i3.

[plymjack]

I think @Kiwi is a little over reacting but there is truth in what he says.
Here in UK road tax is not an issue, since we tax fuel so much, so our cost savings are protected. Oil is going to stay between $20 & $45 for some time I think.
So yes the cost savings are not as great but it still works out a cheap to run, fun to drive city car option... so I pleased we have ours regardless of the oil price.