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      06-25-2013, 10:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Sort of like pulling into a gas station after a few hundred miles, hitting the head, buying a water and stretching your legs. If so, Tesla has that and is quickly expanding it to cover the entire country:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Did I mention that it's free? Does BMW buy you gas?

For road trips, this is really pretty cool. For regular charging of your car, why not just plug it in overnight, you know, that time your ICE car is just sitting there, doing nothing.
Does the German Government subsidize the building of gas stations? Tesla made $40M in 2012 by selling carbon credits to other ICE manufacturers, not actually by selling Tesla S's.
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      06-26-2013, 12:11 AM   #24
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i've been starting to see a few tesla's around scottsdale so the electric car thing might actually be catching on
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      08-13-2013, 01:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Actually i MIGHT be sold when electric cars can be "recharged" to max range as quickly as I can refuel my ICE car.
Sort of like pulling into a gas station after a few hundred miles, hitting the head, buying a water and stretching your legs. If so, Tesla has that and is quickly expanding it to cover the entire country:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.teslamoto...percharger</a>

Did I mention that it's free? Does BMW buy you gas?

For road trips, this is really pretty cool. For regular charging of your car, why not just plug it in overnight, you know, that time your ICE car is just sitting there, doing nothing.
That's 20 minutes for half a charge.

It's cool that it's free but I never spend 20 minutes at a gas station.

I think BMW made the right decision by putting combustion engines in the i models It removes the limitations of your driving needs or desires until the recharging infrastructure can support large amounts of full electric vehicles. Also, from what I understand the BMW batteries last the life of the vehicle therefore not needing to be replaced at the owners expense every few years or so like the Tesla.

The Tesla is cool and mister Musk has put together a nice package but when I consider the carbon fiber cell, the current practicality of the hybrid drive system and the overall look among other things, I don't think I would purchase a $90k Tesla S over a $150k i8.
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      08-13-2013, 09:12 AM   #26
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Don't forget that now you can exchange your battery for a fully charged one in five minutes. Cost is about $50-$60, provided you return and pick up your original battery on the way back.
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      08-13-2013, 10:33 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Red Bread
Don't forget that now you can exchange your battery for a fully charged one in five minutes. Cost is about $50-$60, provided you return and pick up your original battery on the way back.
That's not bad.
Do you get the $50/$60 back when you come back to get your original battery ?
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      08-13-2013, 10:37 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Judah View Post
That's not bad.
Do you get the $50/$60 back when you come back to get your original battery ?
No, but do you get your money back when you go back to the same gas station with an empty tank? You also get your original battery back fully charged, so it's the equivalent of two full fill ups.

I generally take road trips with my wife, who would gladly spend 20 minutes at every gas stop, so the regular Supercharger setup would work fine for me, but being able to pay for the convenience of a quick battery swap, for less than filling a similar car's gas tank, does certainly appeal. I think Tesla is so far out ahead of everyone else on this front that the contrast of adding 330 pounds to a car and only including a 2.5 gallon tank with a best case additional 80 mile range is just laughable.
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      08-13-2013, 11:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
No, but do you get your money back when you go back to the same gas station with an empty tank? You also get your original battery back fully charged, so it's the equivalent of two full fill ups.

I generally take road trips with my wife, who would gladly spend 20 minutes at every gas stop, so the regular Supercharger setup would work fine for me, but being able to pay for the convenience of a quick battery swap, for less than filling a similar car's gas tank, does certainly appeal. I think Tesla is so far out ahead of everyone else on this front that the contrast of adding 330 pounds to a car and only including a 2.5 gallon tank with a best case additional 80 mile range is just laughable.
From Tesla's super charging page:

"What should I do if all Supercharger stalls are occupied when I arrive?

Check to see if current users have left contact information on their dashboard and give them a call. Most customers charge for 20 to 60 minutes.

There are people waiting to charge, but I am not done charging; what is charging etiquette?

We ask our customers to use courtesy while charging. Once your Model S has completed charging, we ask that you move your vehicle to make the spot available for other Model S owners."

So basically you wait an hour to fill up the battery to go another 200+ miles? No thanks.
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      08-13-2013, 11:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
From Tesla's super charging page:

"What should I do if all Supercharger stalls are occupied when I arrive?

Check to see if current users have left contact information on their dashboard and give them a call. Most customers charge for 20 to 60 minutes.

There are people waiting to charge, but I am not done charging; what is charging etiquette?

We ask our customers to use courtesy while charging. Once your Model S has completed charging, we ask that you move your vehicle to make the spot available for other Model S owners."

So basically you wait an hour to fill up the battery to go another 200+ miles? No thanks.
How often do you drive more than 300 miles (the fully charged range of an S?). I'd guess less than 1% of the US populace drive more than 500 miles more than two or three times a year. So have a coffee, stretch your legs and add an hour to a seven or eight hour trip. The tragedy.

Remember, we're only comparing this to an i3 with Rex, which requires more gas every 80 miles. So over a 500 mile trip, you'd either stop once in a Tesla for an hour max, or stop at least six times in an i3. Even if it only takes ten minutes each time, you're still no better off, and you've been inconvenienced a lot more. That's also saying that someone conveniently placed gas stations every 80 miles and you're not having to stop more often just for the insurance of having range, or not finding a station and calling in roadside assistance.

The simple fact is that once the Supercharger network is complete, a fully electric Tesla makes more sense than a hybrid. Finally, the convenience of having HOV lane access in a Tesla or non REX i3 has great benefit to those that live in CA or other areas with limited HOV access.
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      08-13-2013, 11:37 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
No, but do you get your money back when you go back to the same gas station with an empty tank? You also get your original battery back fully charged, so it's the equivalent of two full fill ups.

I generally take road trips with my wife, who would gladly spend 20 minutes at every gas stop, so the regular Supercharger setup would work fine for me, but being able to pay for the convenience of a quick battery swap, for less than filling a similar car's gas tank, does certainly appeal. I think Tesla is so far out ahead of everyone else on this front that the contrast of adding 330 pounds to a car and only including a 2.5 gallon tank with a best case additional 80 mile range is just laughable.
Okay, so let's not get a head of ourselves here. It's great that Tesla plans on some stations to provide fast swap capability in the near term, but it will take years and billions of dollars to achieve a network of these types of stations that will allow range-anxiety-free Tesla electric car travel across the entire nation (not just select highly traveled corridors). I have no doubt Tesla has the engineering prowess to make all of this work, but like all machines, it will never be trouble free. It will take years to make this a viable alternative to ICE travel that already has 3-minute/400-mile travel recharging.

And I'm not sure it is economically viable for one car company to support such a nationwide infrastructure. Now if Elon's battery design becomes a standard and allows other manufacturers to use the design (with a low royalty cost), then maybe it will work. But then it would stifle design innovation as the Tesla's battery pack pretty much defines the platform of the car. Hopefully the forethought of using the robotic battery swapping system for other battery configurations (yet to be designed BTW) has been engineered into the design.

It's so much fun to discuss all this stuff...
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      08-13-2013, 11:45 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
From Tesla's super charging page:

"What should I do if all Supercharger stalls are occupied when I arrive?

Check to see if current users have left contact information on their dashboard and give them a call. Most customers charge for 20 to 60 minutes.

There are people waiting to charge, but I am not done charging; what is charging etiquette?

We ask our customers to use courtesy while charging. Once your Model S has completed charging, we ask that you move your vehicle to make the spot available for other Model S owners."

So basically you wait an hour to fill up the battery to go another 200+ miles? No thanks.
How often do you drive more than 300 miles (the fully charged range of an S?). I'd guess less than 1% of the US populace drive more than 500 miles more than two or three times a year. So have a coffee, stretch your legs and add an hour to a seven or eight hour trip. The tragedy.

Remember, we're only comparing this to an i3 with Rex, which requires more gas every 80 miles. So over a 500 mile trip, you'd either stop once in a Tesla for an hour max, or stop at least six times in an i3. Even if it only takes ten minutes each time, you're still no better off, and you've been inconvenienced a lot more. That's also saying that someone conveniently placed gas stations every 80 miles and you're not having to stop more often just for the insurance of having range, or not finding a station and calling in roadside assistance.

The simple fact is that once the Supercharger network is complete, a fully electric Tesla makes more sense than a hybrid. Finally, the convenience of having HOV lane access in a Tesla or non REX i3 has great benefit to those that live in CA or other areas with limited HOV access.
No, the fully electric does not make more sense at this time. Like I said before the infrastructure does not support it.

$50-$60 for a battery switch, I might as well use my gasoline powered vehicles or even better my BMW i car. The only reason why I asked if the money was returned upon your return was because you stated earlier the 20 minute quick charge, (which is only half a charge) was/is free. I drive a lot, especially on Monday's and Friday's and 20 minutes to fill half the tank, so to speak, is not productive for me.

Why is this comparison based on the i3 when it's half the cost of the Tesla S ? Its not even the same class of car. The more obvious comparison would be the i8 and also like I said before, for my money, it would be the i8 over the Tesla S hands down.
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      08-13-2013, 12:53 PM   #33
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Well, we're in the i3 forum for one. The i8 is more like the Prius in that it has a very limited electric range. You say you could just buy a gas powered car, but for many folks, the Tesla is more appealing than a 7er, A8 or S Class, as recent sales are proving. So yes, $50 for 600 miles of range may be (sort of) similar to filling up a large sedan with gas, but when that large sedan is more fun to drive than the gas powered one, what exactly are you giving up?

Further, and again with my personal speculation, most folks with six figure cars don't drive 500+ miles, they fly. So this is mostly a moot point, and for the one or two times a year they may break that rule, they will soon have an infrastructure to support them taking their Tesla, should they want to, not that they probably don't have another car if they wanted to avoid any range anxiety.

I do fully agree with Efthreeoh that this is amusing to discuss, none of us actually discussing it own a Tesla, an i3 or i8, but the simple fact that we are discussing it signifies that it's gaining momentum and changing the way we each consider buying future cars.

Tesla has paid a huge part of the current infrastructure and I imagine they either have existing partnerships for their battery/charging technology or expect to secure significant partnerships soon. Otherwise they'll be looking at a Fisker sort of story, which would be a real shame.
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      08-13-2013, 03:01 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Well, we're in the i3 forum for one. The i8 is more like the Prius in that it has a very limited electric range. You say you could just buy a gas powered car, but for many folks, the Tesla is more appealing than a 7er, A8 or S Class, as recent sales are proving. So yes, $50 for 600 miles of range may be (sort of) similar to filling up a large sedan with gas, but when that large sedan is more fun to drive than the gas powered one, what exactly are you giving up?

Further, and again with my personal speculation, most folks with six figure cars don't drive 500+ miles, they fly. So this is mostly a moot point, and for the one or two times a year they may break that rule, they will soon have an infrastructure to support them taking their Tesla, should they want to, not that they probably don't have another car if they wanted to avoid any range anxiety.

I do fully agree with Efthreeoh that this is amusing to discuss, none of us actually discussing it own a Tesla, an i3 or i8, but the simple fact that we are discussing it signifies that it's gaining momentum and changing the way we each consider buying future cars.

Tesla has paid a huge part of the current infrastructure and I imagine they either have existing partnerships for their battery/charging technology or expect to secure significant partnerships soon. Otherwise they'll be looking at a Fisker sort of story, which would be a real shame.
I really meant it is fun. I love talking about this kind of stuff. I really think the Tesla is quite an amazing car. I'd own one for my next car if it didn't cost more in total ownership cost than my current E90. I've done the math on it and the Tesla costs about $20K more to operate over the lifetime (of 200,000 miles) than my E90. Granted, it's not the same class car, but it's all Tesla offers at this time. Tesla says it's coming out with a smaller 3/5 series car by 2017 that will cost $40-ish. That would make the Tesla the better daily driver for me; I need a range of at least 200 miles per charge.

The issue I have is battery longevity. I've been keeping up with the SAE studies on battery longevity and it seems that hybrid cars do quote well. I like to run my cars to 200,000 miles minimum, so if the Tesla battery needs replacement at half that mileage, or if the battery looses capacity over time and drops the range, then it's not as good an idea to own one. None of the electric manufacturers really discuss battery longevity.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 08-13-2013 at 03:08 PM..
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      08-13-2013, 03:10 PM   #35
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Fine, this is an i3 forum but that doesn't answer my initial question.
It seems as though no Tesla supporter wants to compare the more appropriate comparison, the i8. I understand the i8 is a hybrid but thats what this conversation between you and I is all about, Hybrid vs EV.

I'm not saying you're giving up anything, I think you missed the point. The point is you are putting yourself back into the same situation as having a fossil fueled vehicle with the added stress of not currently having the ability to refuel, (in this case recharge) wherever you may need to go. Nevermind the added cost of changing the primary Tesla battery pack every few years. When the ability to recharge is available it's time consuming. Time is money and I make my money on the road. Yes, for many folks a Tesla is more appealing but for most folks it's not. Tesla has made some sales but they are not out selling the 7, S, LS or A8.

As for your personal speculation. Im the guy who will run a vehicle out of warranty in two years because of mileage and there are many like me. Furthermore I say, with no disrespect to anyone, if you purchase or lease a vehicle with the thought of how much you can't drive it due to resale value, as if a car itself is an investment, than chances are you really can not afford the car. Many cars used in sales, project management ...etc are low cost cars but many companies, small and large, use high five and/or six figure cars due to the perception and/or image that must be portrayed to clients, prospective clients, investors and even competitors. With that being said, sometimes a drive to Massachusetts or Pittsburg from New Jersey and back is needed, with stops on the way. Flying is not always a viable solution. Sometimes this is done multiple time per week.
I have to admit, I have little interest in owning a i3, however a i8 maybe in my future.

Sure Tesla has put money into a infrastructure to support the full electric vehicle but do you honestly think that BMW, Audi, GM and the others haven't. I said it before, mister Musk has put together a nice package and he is applauded for that but don't think for a minute that the rest are standing still watching Tesla in awe because they are not. Without some form of technological advantage over the other brands, (BMW has already taken the ev battery advantage Tesla once had) I predict Tesla will be sold or become just another ehhh brand. The thing about being first is that it doesn't always mean you're first.
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      08-13-2013, 03:14 PM   #36
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Also I would like to add, if the Tesla works for you than more power to you, (literally... lol).
For me the i8 makes more sense and that's my point.
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      08-13-2013, 03:15 PM   #37
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I think Tesla has mentioned that as battery technology improves, they'll offer a prorated replacement to folks with older technology. I don't know that it will make financial sense, but it's an interesting ploy.

Depending on what they do with the Model X and the rumored smaller platform, we could very well end up with a Tesla as our next car. I've tried to make a used Roadster make sense for my daily driver, but haven't been able to make it work from a strictly financial standpoint, but I do lean more and more towards ignoring the numbers.
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      08-13-2013, 03:20 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judah View Post
Also I would like to add, if the Tesla works for you than more power to you, (literally... lol).
For me the i8 makes more sense and that's my point.
Clearly you know you're well outside of the normal 12k miles per year of the "average" American driver. So yes, a Tesla might not make as much sense for you. I put about 6k miles a year on my car. So an i3 makes more sense to me than a Tesla or even an IC car. I just wish the REX didn't add so much weight and had more range, as it would be nice to not have to pirate my wife's car for every trip over a few hundred miles.

And Tesla sold 5,150 Model S's in the US only in the second quarter. Compare that to the XJ, S-Class, 7er and LS in terms of US only.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/07...s-s-evs-in-q2/
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      08-13-2013, 04:17 PM   #39
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EV's battery controllers will, typically, not allow you to run the battery flat. Similar to any battery technology, running it totally flat shortens the life quicker than never running it down below some value (often in the 10-20% range). If I remember properly, the RX on the i3 cannot be manually turned on until the charge gets to 20%, but it will turn on automatically when it gets to 18%. The Chevy Volt is similar. By limiting the max discharge, they can be relatively confident the battery will last through the warranty period without issues. I think there is also an 'emergency' mode that can override that minimum, but you may lose your warranty if you actually use it! By cooling and heating the battery, depending on needs, they do use some charge, but also help keep the battery within its ideal operating conditions and should help with longevity. IF the vehicle is hooked to a charger, I think you can tell it to condition itself (both battery and interior) while still hooked up, maximizing its range, especially when it is cold outside.

Now, if I can find one without a sunroof when they become available, I think I may fit fine (the designer is about my height, and he seemed to fit) - one may be in my future. Hassle is, BMW USA, the US dealers, and corporate seem to think a sunroof is mandatory in our market, and foist them on everyone, cutting as much as 3" of headroom out of the vehicle for the driver.

I wonder if the things might be available as a European delivery when the time comes...one with a RX would work for running around. Would be fun to go back again...
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      08-14-2013, 08:01 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
EV's battery controllers will, typically, not allow you to run the battery flat. Similar to any battery technology, running it totally flat shortens the life quicker than never running it down below some value (often in the 10-20% range). If I remember properly, the RX on the i3 cannot be manually turned on until the charge gets to 20%, but it will turn on automatically when it gets to 18%. The Chevy Volt is similar. By limiting the max discharge, they can be relatively confident the battery will last through the warranty period without issues. I think there is also an 'emergency' mode that can override that minimum, but you may lose your warranty if you actually use it! By cooling and heating the battery, depending on needs, they do use some charge, but also help keep the battery within its ideal operating conditions and should help with longevity. IF the vehicle is hooked to a charger, I think you can tell it to condition itself (both battery and interior) while still hooked up, maximizing its range, especially when it is cold outside.

Now, if I can find one without a sunroof when they become available, I think I may fit fine (the designer is about my height, and he seemed to fit) - one may be in my future. Hassle is, BMW USA, the US dealers, and corporate seem to think a sunroof is mandatory in our market, and foist them on everyone, cutting as much as 3" of headroom out of the vehicle for the driver.

I wonder if the things might be available as a European delivery when the time comes...one with a RX would work for running around. Would be fun to go back again...
The i3 has a 22kWh pack but as you indicated, the car limits how much you can use so you don't charge it to 100% or completely discharge it as there actions will damage the cells and cause you to lose capacity at the least. To guard against this only 85% of the packs capacity is available, which leaves 18.8kWh's.

As for manually turning on the REx, in Europe you 'll be able to manually turn it on once the state of charge drops below 80%. This allows the driver to maintain an 80%(or whatever level of charge it was when they turned it on) charge as they continue along. Perhaps they are climbing a mountain at the end or their journey and want to have the extra energy for that or they are going to be entering a special "zero emission urban zone" where the car need to be in pure EV mode for entrance, etc. The range extender will automatically turn on at 18% unless you've disabled it(you can turn it off manually).

However for the US, it's not clear if BMW will offer the ability to manually turn on the range extender because of the California Air Resource Boards new BEVx designation that BMW wants. I actually wrote a lengthy blog post on this if anyone is interested in reading the full details.

Yes, you'll be able to precondition the battery and cabin while it's plugged in to heat it up in the winter or cool it down in the summer. My ActiveE has that ability also and I really have found it only necessary in the winter. You can set the i3 to pre-con on a daily schedule so it turns on 1/2 hour before you leave for work in the morning and you'll have a warm cabin and battery waiting for you as well as a fully charged battery. It's a nice feature and I use it all winter. Since I can plug in at work also, mine preconditions my car for the ride home also.

I think BMW will offer European delivery but on the i3 it's a little more difficult than on combustion cars. They use a different connector for charging in Europe than we do here in the US (Mennekes vs SAE J1772) so you wouldn't be able to charge it anywhere, severely limiting where you could drive it unless you drove all the time in REx mode. However my guess is BMW will make a Mennekes to J1772 adaptor and let the European delivery customers use that as well as provide you with a list of local public charging locations so you know where you can plug in. I would like to do this also when I get my i3 if the option ifs there.
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      08-15-2013, 09:36 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Fine, this is an i3 forum but that doesn't answer my initial question.
It seems as though no Tesla supporter wants to compare the more appropriate comparison, the i8. I understand the i8 is a hybrid but thats what this conversation between you and I is all about, Hybrid vs EV.

I'm not saying you're giving up anything, I think you missed the point. The point is you are putting yourself back into the same situation as having a fossil fueled vehicle with the added stress of not currently having the ability to refuel, (in this case recharge) wherever you may need to go. Nevermind the added cost of changing the primary Tesla battery pack every few years. When the ability to recharge is available it's time consuming. Time is money and I make my money on the road. Yes, for many folks a Tesla is more appealing but for most folks it's not. Tesla has made some sales but they are not out selling the 7, S, LS or A8.

As for your personal speculation. Im the guy who will run a vehicle out of warranty in two years because of mileage and there are many like me. Furthermore I say, with no disrespect to anyone, if you purchase or lease a vehicle with the thought of how much you can't drive it due to resale value, as if a car itself is an investment, than chances are you really can not afford the car. Many cars used in sales, project management ...etc are low cost cars but many companies, small and large, use high five and/or six figure cars due to the perception and/or image that must be portrayed to clients, prospective clients, investors and even competitors. With that being said, sometimes a drive to Massachusetts or Pittsburg from New Jersey and back is needed, with stops on the way. Flying is not always a viable solution. Sometimes this is done multiple time per week.
I have to admit, I have little interest in owning a i3, however a i8 maybe in my future.

Sure Tesla has put money into a infrastructure to support the full electric vehicle but do you honestly think that BMW, Audi, GM and the others haven't. I said it before, mister Musk has put together a nice package and he is applauded for that but don't think for a minute that the rest are standing still watching Tesla in awe because they are not. Without some form of technological advantage over the other brands, (BMW has already taken the ev battery advantage Tesla once had) I predict Tesla will be sold or become just another ehhh brand. The thing about being first is that it doesn't always mean you're first.
If you think about the cost it will be for Tesla to build a charging infrastructure that can match the range of mobility an ICE car already gives, the better electric-car platform is really Honda's FCX Clarity. The basic hydrogen fuel station is already here; it's called a gas station. Work needs to be done to economically produce hydrogen for sure, but the transportation system for the fuel from manufacture to tank is basically the same as gasoline. Hydrogen has been an industrial chemical for decades already, so it's not an unfamiliar technology (where I'd say large capacity mobile batteries still are). I would rather see the funding that would be required to build Tesla's supercharger and fast battery swap infrastructure be put to developing reasonable cost hydrogen and development of higher-density on-board mobile storage.
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      08-15-2013, 11:53 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by tommolog View Post
I think BMW will offer European delivery but on the i3 it's a little more difficult than on combustion cars. They use a different connector for charging in Europe than we do here in the US (Mennekes vs SAE J1772) so you wouldn't be able to charge it anywhere, severely limiting where you could drive it unless you drove all the time in REx mode. However my guess is BMW will make a Mennekes to J1772 adaptor and let the European delivery customers use that as well as provide you with a list of local public charging locations so you know where you can plug in. I would like to do this also when I get my i3 if the option ifs there.
I'm with you on i3ED! I think the limited range would make me slow down and enjoy the trip. (Doing ED eleven years ago for an E46 325xit was a memorable trip, and that was before the Welt!)
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