[copmagnet82]

Hello all,

Unexpectedly, one of my cars went to $hit over the weekend and I need a new car ASAP, as in today or tomorrow. I didn't anticipate this expense and I want to save as much money as possible, so maybe if the starts align (...and they haven't lately) I'll be able to get the M3. I essentially narrowed it down to the Nissan Leaf and the i3. I know they are in a different class and it's sort of comparing apples to oranges, but I figured with the money I save on gas I can put it towards the i3. Also, I'm planning on keeping it for a long time and using it as a beater Most Leafs that I'm looking at are going for about $12000. The i3 is about $8000 more. From the research I've done the Leaf is pretty reliable and the cost of ownership is pretty low. I will be driving about 70 miles a day. Now, here are some questions.

How reliable is the i3?

Are there specific years that I should avoid, although within my budget I'm pretty limited to getting a 2014?

Is there anything I should be looking for, good or bad, when buying a used i3?

What's the replacement cost of a new battery and how long will they last on average?

What is the average, realistic range per charge?

Anything else, any suggestion?


Thanks for your help everyone.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Hello all,

Unexpectedly, one of my cars went to $hit over the weekend and I need a new car ASAP, as in today or tomorrow. I didn't anticipate this expense and I want to save as much money as possible, so maybe if the starts align (...and they haven't lately) I'll be able to get the M3. I essentially narrowed it down to the Nissan Leaf and the i3. I know they are in a different class and it's sort of comparing apples to oranges, but I figured with the money I save on gas I can put it towards the i3. Also, I'm planning on keeping it for a long time and using it as a beater Most Leafs that I'm looking at are going for about $12000. The i3 is about $8000 more. From the research I've done the Leaf is pretty reliable and the cost of ownership is pretty low. I will be driving about 70 miles a day. Now, here are some questions.

How reliable is the i3?

Are there specific years that I should avoid, although within my budget I'm pretty limited to getting a 2014?

Is there anything I should be looking for, good or bad, when buying a used i3?

What's the replacement cost of a new battery and how long will they last on average?

What is the average, realistic range per charge?

Anything else, any suggestion?


Thanks for your help everyone.

Well the batteries are produced by Samsung and are engineered to have a life expectancy of 20 years but that doesn't mean their dead after 20 years they will only accept roughly 75% charge so your range will be 25% less of 80 miles.

The range also is dependent on your climate. If your in a warm climate you shouldn't have to much of a problem as even with an 80 mile range I can get well over 100 miles in eco pro + mode, if your in the north with winters then only a Rex will be an option for you as the range can drop into the 50's and 60's when it's cold enough.

Reliability isn't an issue really the only thing ever wrong with mine after 3 years is a seat that squeaks once in a while. But the dealer oils it and it goes away.

The batteries are upgradable so in time you can upgrade yours and get 200 miles before two long if you wish, the BMW buyback programs isn't rolled out here yet but have speculated a full battery upgrade will cost between 5 to 8 grand. Not bad really. The i3 battery where designed to be replaced one at a time if it goes bad so you only have to replace a bad module. So if one goes bad it's about 1600 bucks. But my dealer being one of the largest in Chicago has yet to have to replace one. But I'm sure it happens.

Also note the batteries are warrantied for 8 years.

Also note that getting a level 2 charger will be needed and that comes with a cost as well.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Unexpectedly, one of my cars went to $hit over the weekend and I need a new car ASAP, as in today or tomorrow. I didn't anticipate this expense and I want to save as much money as possible, so maybe if the starts align (...and they haven't lately) I'll be able to get the M3. I essentially narrowed it down to the Nissan Leaf and the i3. I know they are in a different class and it's sort of comparing apples to oranges, but I figured with the money I save on gas I can put it towards the i3. Also, I'm planning on keeping it for a long time and using it as a beater Most Leafs that I'm looking at are going for about $12000. The i3 is about $8000 more. From the research I've done the Leaf is pretty reliable and the cost of ownership is pretty low. I will be driving about 70 miles a day.

If you can charge your car mid-way (e.g.: at work), then 70 miles/day are doable, even in the winter.
If not, neither the original i3-BEV (pure electric range of 81 miles, closer to ~50-60 miles in freezing temps) nor Leaf (range of 75 miles, -25% for freezing temps) will get you home all-year-around.

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Now, here are some questions.

How reliable is the i3?

Are there specific years that I should avoid, although within my budget I'm pretty limited to getting a 2014?

BEV (pure electric) are nearly bulletproof.
Lots of nagging issues with REX (range extender version), which is also more expensive.

No given year is better or worse than the other. MY17 cars have larger battery for longer range.
REX option costs almost $4K new, and will provide extra range off 2-cyclinder moped engine, which you may need to get you home in the winter.

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Is there anything I should be looking for, good or bad, when buying a used i3?

Don't buy - lease a new i3!
Battery range improves by +50% every year or two, driving the depreciation for used EVs into the ground.

You can get a MY17 BEV for ~$250/month, or $3K/year.
Your car will depreciate more than that annually. Even used ones.

Leased MY17 will have range of 114 miles.
Even with -25% freezing temps penalty, it will cover your 70 miles daily commute all-year-round.

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

What's the replacement cost of a new battery and how long will they last on average?

BMW Battery is warrantied for 8 years/100K miles for functionality, and the same period for less than 70% battery capacity loss:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Tv0XFUFPh56-Jw

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

What is the average, realistic range per charge?

Assume the advertised mileage (81 miles on 18.8kW usable (21.6kW advertised) battery == 4.6 miles / kW) as an average for fall/spring afternoon.

You will be able to stretch that out +25% (~115 miles) with ambient temps in 60-80F range, one-pedal driving on back roads in the summer (no AC, no heating, no racing).

Expect -25% range loss during winter (temps below freezing), and upto -35% if ambient temps drop below 0F.
Expect -25% range loss at highway speeds.
Expect the shortest range speeding on a highway in freezing temps.


If I were you, I would seriously consider leasing the new i3 with the 33.4kW advertised/27.2kW usable battery.
For $3K/year out of pocket, you get to dip your toes into EV world, while the BMW underwrite ~$25K/2 yeas of vehicle depreciation.

a

[copmagnet82]

Thank you for the responses.

I live in Chicago, so there is a mix of extreme hot and cold.

As far as leasing, I drive about 27000 miles a year, so that's out of the question. I was thinking to buy a used one and once the battery dies, I'll get a new one, and have a-like-new-car again. Is that bad thinking on my part

Also, I will have ability to charge at work for 8 hours at least on 110V and if I get there early enough on 220V.

Is level 2 charging 220V? If so, doesn't it come standard?

[copmagnet82]

Originally Posted by afadeev

BEV (pure electric) are nearly bulletproof.
Lots of nagging issues with REX (range extender version), which is also more expensive.

What are the issues with the REX?

[-c-]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Thank you for the responses.

I live in Chicago, so there is a mix of extreme hot and cold.

As far as leasing, I drive about 27000 miles a year, so that's out of the question. I was thinking to buy a used one and once the battery dies, I'll get a new one, and have a-like-new-car again. Is that bad thinking on my part

Also, I will have ability to charge at work for 8 hours at least on 110V and if I get there early enough on 220V.

Is level 2 charging 220V? If so, doesn't it come standard?

That's why I bought mine. Soon I'll have no car payments and practically drive for free. Nothing wrong with that.


Take an extended test drive and see how it works for you and then you'll know if you need a BEV or a rex


Sorry I was off on the battery warranty, might have been thinking tesla but 8 years ain't bad.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

As far as leasing, I drive about 27000 miles a year, so that's out of the question.

27K miles/year is significantly more than 70/day.

If you assume the same work commute 365 days/year, it's 74/day.
Assuming you have a life, you will be driving to work < 250 days/year (net of a few holidays, vacations, Fridays, etc), so that becomes ~108 miles / day.

Or still, 70 miles / day, but no more long road trips (i3 wont work for those), thus ~17.5K miles / year.

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

I was thinking to buy a used one and once the battery dies, I'll get a new one, and have a-like-new-car again. Is that bad thinking on my part

Batteries rarely flat out die.
At least not all the individual cells, not at once.
I'm sure a few do (and packs will get replaced under warranty), but usually, they gradually degrade over time.

BMW warranties 70% of original capacity for 8 years or 100K miles. You will definitely hit that limit on miles, and at the stated 27K/year, in 3-4 years max.
Make that 2-3 years on a used car with mileage.

From then on, it's 8 cells packs * $1.6K/pack = $12.8K.
That will be, roughly, the value of your used i3 in another 2-3 years.


In other countries (EU for sure), BMW cells upgrades to the new 94Ah cells, but not in the US. I remember reading that the cost was something around Euro 10K with labor, which would be ~$10.6K. Alas, that option remains unavailable in the US.

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Also, I will have ability to charge at work for 8 hours at least on 110V and if I get there early enough on 220V.

I used to do the same at work two years ago, but with the proliferation of EVs, it is now a struggle to get access to 1 of the 4 charging stations. I only expect access to get that much tighter in the future.

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Is level 2 charging 220V? If so, doesn't it come standard?

At the risk of terminology police catching me: on older cars, there are standard chargers for only L1 (120V) and L2 (240V) charging. Both use SAE J1772 Charging plug (google for a pic).

For L2 fast charging, the other end of the J1772 plug does not go into a wall outlet (L1 can go into wall socket), but into a dedicated Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE), aka wall box.
You need to buy an EVSE to take advantage of L2 charging at home (~3.5 hours on MY14 cars via L2, or ~18 hours via L1).
https://transportevolved.com/2015/11...ginners-guide/

BMW sells an L2 EVSE for around $1.1K.
I bought mine (Siemens) for $450 about two years ago:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MFVI92S...s_ad_dp_asin_1

You should also consider the cost of installation.
I did it myself (re-used the electric dryer 50Amp circuit and plug).
Others report paying between $800-$1.5K for "professional" installation.

a

P.S.: L3 (380V) chargers are still a rare sight in the US, and were optional on some 2045 MY i3s. Very few buyers paid for them since L3 EVSE's were practically non-existent in the US in 2014-15 (still super rare).
L3 EVSE for home charging are filthy expensive, but if your car had an L3 charger option, you could seek out L3 commercial EVSE sites and give those a try.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/09/24/in...-electric-car/

[copmagnet82]

Well, I pretty much don't have a life. I work 5-6 days a week, plus call hours. My mileage of about 27k/year was my max I did last year and it did include trips out of state and such, but I guess you are right, i3 will not work for those. We still have the MDX, so that will take care of those.

I'm getting a little stressed out. I hate buying cars overnite .

[-c-]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Well, I pretty much don't have a life. I work 5-6 days a week, plus call hours. My mileage of about 27k/year was my max I did last year and it did include trips out of state and such, but I guess you are right, i3 will not work for those. We still have the MDX, so that will take care of those.

I'm getting a little stressed out. I hate buying cars overnite .

Luckily you live in Chicago so we do have level 3 chargers on our toll way overpasses. Got to use one finally and it rocked! Also check with the local green fleets. Chicago payed half the cost of my charger and installation.

Also just got my 4K dollar check from Chicago !

Only 2.5 years late lol....

[copmagnet82]

Originally Posted by -c-

Also check with the local green fleets.Chicago payed half the cost of my charger and installation.

Also just got my 4K dollar check from Chicago !

Can you tell me more about those. If I buy a used car today or tomorrow will I miss out on those?

[-c-]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Can you tell me more about those. If I buy a used car today or tomorrow will I miss out on those?

I think that's for new car only. Not sure about the charger reimbursement though.


New car gets you 7500 + 4000 from US and local governments, Chicago is in the middle of revamping their green fleets promotions so I was lucky to even get it. If I where you knowing what you have to drive and where you live a 2014 Rex is the only option. An i3 BEV won't cut it. Trust me.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

What are the issues with the REX?

My comments are based on my personal experience (sample size of 1), and related comments observed on this and other forums.
Not all of the below have the root cause in the REX, but many do.

I have had 10+ warranty/recall visits on my MY14 REX over 20 months.
~3K miles had been put on dealer loaners while my REX was in service (twice parts had to be ordered from Germany, arrived a few weeks later).

I had at least 3 warranty "repairs" traced to the REX mounting brackets, bolts, or something else. REX still throws a CE light a few times every spring and fall (weather change related). It goes away, by itself, eventually. I had scheduled dealer visits for the first 2 CE light events (software reload a solution to all problems), learned to live with it subsequently.

I've had KLE/on-board charger replaced (hardware and software), which included tearing up the right rear corner. Since that work was done, I've had constant ongoing right rear corner squeak. In an effort to fix that, I've had right rear shock replaced (no improvement), charging hardware re-checked and re-torqued (no improvement), suspension re-checked and re-torqued. The reports after completing the last one was that "loose bolts were found, corrected". Squeaking persists unabated. The only moving piece left to replace/re-torque is the REX engine itself. I've given up on scheduling further dealer visits.

I've had recurring CE ("lighting failure") warning light every time I initiate ABS or near-ABS urgent breaking. Exterior lights' functionality is never effected, just the CE light. I've learned to ignore it.

I've had "drive train error" CE light once. Software reloaded, as per usual.

My radio head unit looses ~80% of reception and stations when I enable HD mode. I am in the NYC market that is choke full of HD radio stations, and my other BMW doesn't have the same problem. I've learned to live without HD radio.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
It is also entirely possible that I got a semi-lemon, and that other REX's are bulletproof.
Alas, I'm happy to part ways with my REX early (via lease "pull-ahead"), and swap it out for a 33kW battery BEV in ~2 weeks.

My REX had prompted more dealer visits than all my previous BMWs over 20+ years of ownership, combined.
If this was my first BMW, it would have been the last.

YMMV,
a

[copmagnet82]

Originally Posted by -c-

I think that's for new car only. Not sure about the charger reimbursement though.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Originally Posted by -c-

New car gets you 7500 + 4000 from US and local governments, Chicago is in the middle of revamping their green fleets promotions so I was lucky to even get it. If I where you knowing what you have to drive and where you live a 2014 Rex is the only option. An i3 BEV won't cut it. Trust me.

Oh boy, I hope you are wrong about the i3 BEV ...because I just picked one up last night. Charged it up overnight on 110V, made it to work and it's charging at work as this it being typed. All I know, for now, those +80mph drives to work are a thing of the past... which is good and bad at the same time.

[lorinzo]

Congrats!

[-c-]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Oh boy, I hope you are wrong about the i3 BEV ...because I just picked one up last night. Charged it up overnight on 110V, made it to work and it's charging at work as this it being typed. All I know, for now, those +80mph drives to work are a thing of the past... which is good and bad at the same time.

Congrats on your purchase man ! It will take some adjusting but charging at work is a plus.

One way to help I guess on super cold days is once the car warms up you can always go eco pro plus and dress warmly.

I've done that on occasion.

Worst case you'll have to pull some over time if your batteries are to low to make it home. Or use a quick charger.

Why not look up all available chargers on your route to home so if your ever low you can stop off and have a coffee while charging. Time to start knowing where the chargers are vs. gas stations. Many are free here in Chicago land. And very plentiful the closer you are to the city.
The further you go past the northern Suburbs they start to thin out. Think Wheaton and Naperville chargers are still good past those towns they start getting light.

But I will say the worry free driving and practically 0 maintenance is a very big plus.

Also when you get the charger installed at your house you can pre heat your car in the morning so it's all super toasty for you while you set off.

Batteries will also give better range while pre conditioned as well.

[Kiwi]

This is what I don't get with battery only cars having to plan for charging station and hoping it is not out go order and they don't have a long wait. You need a rex i3 or buy BMW's plugin 3 series with a full petrol engine so you don't need to plan and worry about getting home.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

This is what I don't get with battery only cars having to plan for charging station and hoping it is not out go order and they don't have a long wait. You need a rex i3 or buy BMW's plugin 3 series with a full petrol engine so you don't need to plan and worry about getting home.

That's you ! me I don't give a rats patute !

I enjoy the free juice ! More money in my pocket different strokes for different folks.


Luckily I work 6 miles from home so worrying about range doesn't exist for me. If I worked say 30 or more miles away from work I'd still be driving my 135is !

[copmagnet82]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

This is what I don't get with battery only cars having to plan for charging station and hoping it is not out go order and they don't have a long wait. You need a rex i3 or buy BMW's plugin 3 series with a full petrol engine so you don't need to plan and worry about getting home.

Well, I was never a fan of EVs and even though I own one, now (which by the way all of my friends make fun of me for getting it, since they know how I feel about cars, especially manual transmissions), I don't think my heart will ever convert to EV. With that being said...

I'm not doing a whole lot of planning; plug it in at home, plug it in at work, and I'm essentially full charge or close to it when I get back in the car again. I've had the car for 2 days and it was a pretty easy adjustment; I definitely don't speed as much as I used to in the TL, I stopped using toll roads (another ~$4.00 a day in savings), and I have to leave 15 minutes early, since I'm taking local streets, but I do get to work 30 minutes sooner since I'm no longer in the heavy traffic. Even though my trip to work is about 35 miles, I am not worrying about the range that much. I had no idea that Chicago and suburbs had so many charging stations

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

That's you ! me I don't give a rats patute !

I enjoy the free juice ! More money in my pocket different strokes for different folks.

Agreed.

I only ever recharge on the road when I go on 100-250 mile long trips.
Those are exceedingly rare, and I only do them just to explore the limits EV infrastructure on the East coast. There has never been a wait to access a charger, or an issue with EV charging on the road.

Frankly, i3 is not a pleasant highway car (many factors), and I much prefer to take my M3 for highway trips for numerous reasons, including joy of driving and refueling flexibility.
An i3-REX could be a consideration if you have no other ICE cars handy, or are looking to safely dip your toes into the EV world. Otherwise, save the $3850, and use an ICE car for highway road trips.

I've put exactly 25,058 miles on my REX over 22 months, with exactly 1,798 miles (7.2% of total) on REX.
REX's engine gets 39 mpg (old engine tune, new MY17 REXs get 35 mpg), and consumed 46 gallons of premium gas.
Assuming ~26mpg highway on M3, it would have required 69 gallons.
23 gallons saved on REX, at ~$3.00 / gallon == $69.15 in savings over 22 months.

Realistically, savings are higher as I would have used more gas in the M3 for the duration of longer trips (REX ran part way on batteries).
But even if you assume 50% of long-trip highway miles were on electricity, that's still only $277 in savings from $3,850 investment.
Even if you assume 75% of long-trip highway miles were in EV mode (25% on REX), that is still just $692 in savings from $3,850 investment.
Terrible return on investment, unless REX is your one and only car. Or you commute can not be covered reliably (in the winter) in BEV mode.
Thus, my next i3 is a BEV.

And no, I would not recommend the "plugin 3 series" to anyone, for anything, either.
The EV range on 330e is pathetic 14 miles, if you are super gentle on the gas pedal.
"e" package costs an additional $5350, and requires shrinking the fuel tank by 5 gallons.
Makes no financial sense.


a

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by afadeev

There has never been a wait to access a charger, or an issue with EV charging on the road.

Well, did I say that a few days too early !?!.

After 20 months if EV ownership, I finally got @#$%-ed by an EVgo public L2 charger last night.
In a spectacular way.

Note 1: I have had a ChargePoint account (pay per kWh as you go, at the rates established by EVSE owner, which are frequently $0.00). I had setup a ChargePoint account online ~2 years ago, when I first encountered a ChargePoint EVSE. I was super easy, and I still haven't spent the original $20.00 credit.
Note 2: I had never previously run into EVgo chargers. This was my first encounter with their hardware and customer support.

It was sunny and below freezing yesterday, yet my better half had the urge to go shopping for one reason or another. And the kids decided to tag along, so there we were, ~55 miles one way from home, counting on the ChargePoint L2 chargers to get us back from an outlet mall just north of the NJ/NY border.

Once we got there, I was surprised to discover that ChargePoint EVSEs had been removed, and replaced with EVgo hardware.
OK, so how hard could it be to take advantage of them?

EVgo is the official BMW's partner (you get few minutes of charging for free from them), they have a dedicated BMW on-boarding process, and a dedicated web site www.chargenowusa.com
Right?

I found the link my SA's (sales associate) emailed me after ordering a new MY17 i3. It took me to the ChargeNowUSA web site with instructions for setting up a new account. Nice.

I go through the registration, but it suddenly requires to enter an EVgo card #, which I don't have. I call EVgo support line (conveniently open 24/7), and they tell me that they can't get me a card unless I commit to an annual EVgo plan (cancellation penalties and all). And even then it will take 2-3 business days to process the order and get me a card. It's a sweetheart of a deal: $5.95 monthly maintenance fee, $4.95 per session connection fee, additional hour/per minute charges, etc, etc. Basically a total rip off, compared to ChargePoint.

OK, so even that wasn't going to help me get the car charged on an freezing afternoon, since I don't have a card on me. What else could they do?

They could one-time unlock the charger for me for $10.81 plus tax!
That's in-your-face rip-off pricing (full battery charge from ChargePoint usually costs $10 c/kWh, or $1.81), but OK, lets go.

I'm ready to be ripped off by the BMW NA's preferred charging partner.

Take my credit card # and lets recharge my i3.
It starts well and good, though I'm freezing next to the charger reading off the "asset ID #" to the customer support guy, after a few false tries, the electrons start flowing. So I lock the car and head out to catch the rest of the family and warm up.

After an hour and a mile of walk-shopping, I logged into BMW Connect app to check on the charging progress, and discovered that the charging stopped after reaching 13% battery capacity. WTF?

I call EVgo 800#, get a yet another support guy who can't help me, since he can't find any records of previous conversations without EVgo account. "Would I like to enroll now?"

"@#$% yes, but you wont be able to process registration on the spot to let me start charging immediately, would you?"

"Well sir... ... I can submit I trouble ticket and our team will get back to you in 2-3 business days..."

Long story short, unless I went back to the parking lot to read off the "asset ID #" back to him, he would not be able to do anything for me.

So he didn't do anything.
My car didn't get charged, but my CC did. I will deal with that later.

I made it home on REX, with 4 miles to spare (highway driving in <20F temps kills the range). I could have stopped to refill the tiny gas tank, but was comfortable with my math.

Moral of the story - you now need an EVgo account if you plan to rely on L2/L3 charging infrastructure in North East. And you need to lube up whenever you have to use it.

Instead of supplementing and growing the L2/L3 charging infrastructure, EVgo has deployed BMW NA funds to compete with, and wipe out ChargePoint EVSEs around these parts.

a

P.S.: The above is a highly abridged version of an already long story. There were 5 calls to EVgo customer support in total. Results are as reported.
P.P.S.: When I got back to the car to leave, EVgo EVSE displayed reason for terminating charging early was "charging error", as displayed on the UI screen. Never seen that before any other EVSE hardware.

[copmagnet82]

WOW, that is bogus. The EV's are still fairly new and free charging is nice where available, but it's only a matter of time when the prices of charging are going to go through the roof.

Also, as far as I know, in Chicagoland BMW dealers are using ChargePoint (at least the ones I went to) and they are free. So, does that mean, that eventually they will replace all of the current chargers with EVgo and we'll have to pay for charging at the dealer?

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by copmagnet82

Also, as far as I know, in Chicagoland BMW dealers are using ChargePoint (at least the ones I went to) and they are free. So, does that mean, that eventually they will replace all of the current chargers with EVgo and we'll have to pay for charging at the dealer?

I can't speak for other areas of the country, but in and around NE, most BMW dealers also rely on ChargePoint to install the EVSE, and then ask customers to pay the charging costs. I am yet to see a free dealer L2 EVSE (though that's the setup with most shopping malls). Most BMW dealers pass-through the electricity cost (~10c/kWh), but a few mark them up to $1-2 / kWh.

I don't know what EVgo expansion plans are, but in the one and only encounter I've had with them so far, I'm not terribly impressed.

a