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      04-09-2014, 09:15 PM   #1
bozola
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Activity is really slow in this forum.. Others?
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      04-10-2014, 08:27 AM   #2
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Activity is really slow in this forum.. Others?
There are very few of them out there yet and deliveries haven't even begun in the US. Give it time.
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      04-10-2014, 06:31 PM   #3
bozola
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There was more activity for the Ti back in 1998!
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      04-11-2014, 09:37 PM   #4
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The i3 is a much more focused, narrow marketplace than maybe any other previous car. While there are people that looked when it was announced out of curiosity, many of those that object to it, or failed to understand its purpose bashed it, just like those that thought the X-series was a huge watering down, distraction from the 'core' of the brand and ran out of steam (which will probably return once people start talking about their new purchases). If sales are anything, they've been found totally wrong. If nothing else, they've made BMW a lot of money and helped fuel development of other things, those people should appreciate.

But, I agree, until sales start, and people start to see them on the street, and those that own them start to either praise or condemn them, the discussion is mostly theoretical, and there's only so much that can be said without new data, at least without being redundant.

There was (is?) a site, started in Europe for people to talk about their new i3 purchases...I cannot remember or find it...anyone got a link?
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      04-12-2014, 06:41 AM   #5
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^ Okay, now you are just starting to sound like Scott26.

"The i3 is a much more focused, narrow marketplace than maybe any other previous car." - Seriously? The i3 is about 5 years late to the EV market place. Other companies were developing and selling EVs while BMW was still paying enormous fines to the EPA for failing to meet corporate fleet fuel efficiency standards.
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      04-12-2014, 11:52 AM   #6
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^ Okay, now you are just starting to sound like Scott26.

"The i3 is a much more focused, narrow marketplace than maybe any other previous car." - Seriously? The i3 is about 5 years late to the EV market place. Other companies were developing and selling EVs while BMW was still paying enormous fines to the EPA for failing to meet corporate fleet fuel efficiency standards.
With maybe one exception, Tesla, none of the vehicles now being sold except the i3 started out with a clean sheet, and are modified ICE or hybrid vehicles of one sort or the other - all built on a modified existing chassis, never optimized for being all-electric. If that isn't more focused, I'm not sure what is?! The thing is designed as a city car, therefore certain characteristics come to mind: smaller for parking, small turning circle for tight spaces, some storage for tasks like shopping, the ability to cart the kids to the movies with extra seats, ability to not get in the way in a city (decent acceleration), and no big need for an extended range. That they were able to leave space, and not impact the rear storage at all, for the REx, for those people that felt the need for more, is also a tribute.
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      04-12-2014, 04:57 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
With maybe one exception, Tesla, none of the vehicles now being sold except the i3 started out with a clean sheet, and are modified ICE or hybrid vehicles of one sort or the other - all built on a modified existing chassis, never optimized for being all-electric. If that isn't more focused, I'm not sure what is?! The thing is designed as a city car, therefore certain characteristics come to mind: smaller for parking, small turning circle for tight spaces, some storage for tasks like shopping, the ability to cart the kids to the movies with extra seats, ability to not get in the way in a city (decent acceleration), and no big need for an extended range. That they were able to leave space, and not impact the rear storage at all, for the REx, for those people that felt the need for more, is also a tribute.
A bit of a stretch don't you think. The Nissan Leaf is a pure electric based on its own chassis as is the Tesla S. I'd have to research more, but it think there are a few others. The other current cars may have the basis of common architecture shared with a gas-powered vehicel, but most all are optimized for weight and EV performance as it helps both types of drivetrains regardless. The Volt even has a unique architecture even if its common platform is based on the GM Epsilon platform. I think you are making a bit too much out of BMWs i3 chassis. Most people shopping an EV could give a rat's patooty what the chassis is made of. They want driving range at an affordable price along with convenient charging.
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      04-12-2014, 05:57 PM   #8
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If you want any reasonable operational characteristics, you'd have to engineer, or in the case of the majority of the EV's out there, reengineer the chassis for proper operation to accommodate the weight and its position.

A clean sheet of paper means, you do not have to use any parts or designs from the corporate parts bin...Nissan's design blends in, and after looking at one, the rear is not a friendly place for things like boxes unless they are small enough to fit into that deep cavity. The shape of the rear on the i3 is pretty much conventionally shaped, and square or larger flat items can be fit in there. The Nissan design copies that of many of their mini-vans with the same thinking by likely the same engineers. Now, the shape of the i3 can be controversial, but it certainly has little in the vehicle that draws on existing stock - it was designed and provisioned to bolster the green idea behind the vehicle and augment its function. To some, that will turn them off, to others, wondering why they did things that way they did for so long, the change is a breath of fresh air.

Nissan's clean sheet started with don't make it look that much different than the rest of the cars, be able to make it on the same equipment, rather than how can we make this as good as we can based on the concepts we find important (passenger safety, vehicle size, range, reliability, etc.).

Now, how well the i3 will fare compared to others is still up in the air...it needs some user testing to see if they concur it was worth it and if they agree to the design choices that were made, but it's basis is certainly arrived at differently, like sourcing the fiber at green energy facilities (primarily hydro power), and making parts of the car out of the cuttings of the CFRP pieces removed on some of the bigger pieces where their strength isn't critical, and the renewable materials, and the ability to recycle.
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      04-12-2014, 08:36 PM   #9
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      04-13-2014, 06:35 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
If you want any reasonable operational characteristics, you'd have to engineer, or in the case of the majority of the EV's out there, reengineer the chassis for proper operation to accommodate the weight and its position.

A clean sheet of paper means, you do not have to use any parts or designs from the corporate parts bin...Nissan's design blends in, and after looking at one, the rear is not a friendly place for things like boxes unless they are small enough to fit into that deep cavity. The shape of the rear on the i3 is pretty much conventionally shaped, and square or larger flat items can be fit in there. The Nissan design copies that of many of their mini-vans with the same thinking by likely the same engineers. Now, the shape of the i3 can be controversial, but it certainly has little in the vehicle that draws on existing stock - it was designed and provisioned to bolster the green idea behind the vehicle and augment its function. To some, that will turn them off, to others, wondering why they did things that way they did for so long, the change is a breath of fresh air.

Nissan's clean sheet started with don't make it look that much different than the rest of the cars, be able to make it on the same equipment, rather than how can we make this as good as we can based on the concepts we find important (passenger safety, vehicle size, range, reliability, etc.).

Now, how well the i3 will fare compared to others is still up in the air...it needs some user testing to see if they concur it was worth it and if they agree to the design choices that were made, but it's basis is certainly arrived at differently, like sourcing the fiber at green energy facilities (primarily hydro power), and making parts of the car out of the cuttings of the CFRP pieces removed on some of the bigger pieces where their strength isn't critical, and the renewable materials, and the ability to recycle.
Ah, so now even though the Leaf is a clean sheet design it's still not like the i3 clean-sheet design because it "copies" other Nissan (minivan) models and was perhaps designed by the same engineers (as the regular Nissan cars I suppose?), so that somehow makes the i3 THAT much different than a Leaf with respect to its clean-sheet design. Oh, and the i3 uses different production tooling (because of the CFRP - duh) than other BMW models, so that means its a totally different EV and worthy of a "class-of-one" status. And steel and aluminum are far more cost effective recyclable materials than is carbon fiber, so whatever "green" may be gained in production is most likely lost in EOL recycling. And EV batteries just kill the whole be-kind-to-the-planet argument anyway.

So the take away is:

EVs are green and save the planet.

i3's are REALLY green and REALLY save the planet, so they are a class of one and the most anticipated vehicle of all time.

Got it!
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      04-13-2014, 04:42 PM   #11
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No, not really. A true clean sheet means you do not have to start with anything already set into the design. Nissan copied lots of ideas on styling and shape and production methods so they could build the Leaf in existing plants which limits their choices. BMW came up with an entirely novel construction method based on the idea that they wanted it as light as possible which retaining some of the BMW characteristics: good handling, safe, 50/50 weight balance. The one thing that they did retain was the 'look' of the kidney grills, to maintain the family ties, but they're entirely non-functional. Neither the shape of the vehicle, the dash layout, the seats, nor the construction materials and methods were restricted. Then, to actually be able to produce the thing, they established a CF raw production facility partner, and someone to convert that fiber, and the facilities to make the fabric, and the machinery to actually construct the whole car, not using any existing preconceptions or existing production facilities. That is giving the engineers free reign and my definition of as close to a clean sheet paper design as you're likely to get in industry...Nissan building it out of metal in existing factories with conventional methods and copying shapes is not.
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      04-14-2014, 09:07 PM   #12
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No, not really. A true clean sheet means you do not have to start with anything already set into the design. Nissan copied lots of ideas on styling and shape and production methods so they could build the Leaf in existing plants which limits their choices. BMW came up with an entirely novel construction method based on the idea that they wanted it as light as possible which retaining some of the BMW characteristics: good handling, safe, 50/50 weight balance. The one thing that they did retain was the 'look' of the kidney grills, to maintain the family ties, but they're entirely non-functional. Neither the shape of the vehicle, the dash layout, the seats, nor the construction materials and methods were restricted. Then, to actually be able to produce the thing, they established a CF raw production facility partner, and someone to convert that fiber, and the facilities to make the fabric, and the machinery to actually construct the whole car, not using any existing preconceptions or existing production facilities. That is giving the engineers free reign and my definition of as close to a clean sheet paper design as you're likely to get in industry...Nissan building it out of metal in existing factories with conventional methods and copying shapes is not.
Why does this make the i3 so narrowly focused then? It's a car, an Electric car; and not the first.
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      04-15-2014, 04:13 PM   #13
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Why does this make the i3 so narrowly focused then? It's a car, an Electric car; and not the first.
Something like the Tesla, is a car, an Electric car, too. It is not intended to be something designed to get around the city as efficiently and easily as the i3 with it's shorter length, tighter turning circle, ding-resistant door and hood panels, and taller height. They had different visions on what they wanted to be from the beginning. Stuffing more and more battery capacity into a vehicle is a decreasing benefit, until, at some point, you'd be decreasing range with more battery. Future tech will allow us to store and use more energy in the same volume, but that's true for any user - it will only get better. Possibly combine that with super capacitors for more efficient temporary/high discharge storage capacity and things look very interesting as this all evolves. Throw in fuel cells and the infrastructure to refuel them, and the whole market changes. All of these things take time...you have to start somewhere.

Look at the range increase you get on the Tesla when you go from the 60 to the optional 85KwHr battery - about 50-60 miles. On that 24KwHr capacity, the i3 can go upwards of 100 miles in their eco+ mode. Why, because their focus is different...higher speeds, faster acceleration on the Tesla, and light, but not as focused with the CFRP core, there are limits.

Nobody ever said the i3 was an ICE, general purpose vehicle replacement and if you expect it to be and look at it like that, you will be disappointed. Used as intended, I think it is a vehicle that does very well. If you don't have a need, it will not have any appeal.

The clean sheet approach allowed them to consider each component as to how it interacted with the whole, then explore new approaches to solve problems. Being stuck with an existing construction plant and family resemblances and parts bins, does not...doesn't mean you can't have some innovation, but the differences can be huge.

Certainly, BMW could have made the i3 look like nearly every other car they currently make, but why? It has no need to let them stick in their popular I6 ICE...it was purpose designed to be electric, so the length, overall structural strength and safety design parameters did not have to support a big hunk of metal at the front (the engine), and by designing the battery compartment and electric motor components, they could optimize stability, safety, and get their desired 50/50 weight balance to obtain the familial handling, consistent with the intended use of the vehicle. It was not designed to win 1/4-mile drag races, or compete on the race track. There's a limit on what's needed or desired to get you safely and confidently around the city. That with the electric, you can use all of the instant torque and never embarrass your self at the green light is probably enough.
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