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      12-15-2013, 12:28 PM   #23
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Oh look!! An overpriced Nissan Leaf...errrr...Chevy Volt!....errr....yea....
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      12-15-2013, 12:55 PM   #24
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Here in the states the Federal Government takes up to $10k of citizen money via tax credits to purchase an EV. In my state of Washington you also receive another 9.5% of tax credits from the people for every EV sold.

If one buys a $45k electric Chevy "Cruz" ($20k) car with the Volt name the top 53% of American tax payers are giving the owner $7,500 dollars. If that same owner is residing in Washington state where I live we tax payers then in charity give that consumer another $4,000 in tax credits. So basically if one were to purchase a $45k EV in WA your fellow citizens are giving you $11,500 of our money for your purchase. Then on top of that they are not paying fuel taxes that are used to construct and rebuild the highway infrastructure that they use. If one is purchasing a $125,000 Tesla, over $20k is redistributed from tax payers to Tesla customer - does that make sense.

Why does one who purchases a $125,000 Tesla need a tax credit? If you like poor quality cars and like to purchase vehicles like the $20k Chevy Volt with a $25k battery and electric motor then why do these folks need money from their fellow Americans. Don't even get me started about Coal powered energy supplying power to these cars.

I would like to see all EVs sell with no tax credits and that they pay for the infrastructure they are using like everyone else. Also, the EV Volt, i3, Nissan Leaf are just cheap cars that look cheap, drive cheap, and have no resale value. Tesla is the only company doing it right! For me, i want to see a 3 series version of the Tesla for under $75k.

When I see the major car companies producing high quality, LONG RANGE EVs that drive as good as a 3 series with similar quality only then will I get excited, until then I will keep saving for that Telsa and driving gas powered BMWS.
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      12-15-2013, 01:06 PM   #25
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80 mile range??? Huh??? What BMW is not do not informing us consumers is that range is only possible if the temperature is 70f, only one passenger under 150lbs, no rain, no auxiliary systems can be running like heat or AC.

In real world driving expect 50 mile range at best. BMW just needs to purchase Tesla and use their formula because they have it figured out.
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      12-15-2013, 02:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saphirschwarz View Post
And you get a 4 series performance aerokit fitted or an x5 msport when you gotta drive a lil more ... COOL
Yeah I spotted that as well. I know my BMW dealer and guarantee there will be a no option 328i that his kid had been driving the few months before not either of those cars...
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      12-15-2013, 05:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Gastoys View Post
BMW just needs to purchase Tesla and use their formula because they have it figured out.
Tesla's formula is to put in MUCH bigger battery packs, which is a major reason why they cost more. The base vehicle has a 60KwHr battery (nearly 2.5 times the one in the i3) and is only rated at double the mileage of the i3. Or, you can opt for the 85KwHr battery, and get all of another 65-miles range (that's 25KwHr more, for lots of money and about 65% of the distance you'd get in the i3's 24KwHr battery pack). So, the i3 is quite a bit more efficient, because of the design, which is driven by weight.

Unless you have a place to plug in any of these EVs, your efficiency goes way down. The Volt, after it has used up much of the battery capacity, doesn't really get all that great mileage running the motor.

The i3, if you opt for the range extender, is more of a battery level sustainer, not a charger - it's output can keep the batteries from dropping while driving at a moderate speed, but you may be hard pressed to climb a steep grade if it's very long. You may get some charging out of it in stop and go, or low speed, but it is unlikely to be able to recharge to full capacity, partly because the tank is so small, and the generator isn't all that big.

The goal is to build up the infrastructure to recharge the vehicle maybe where you shop, work, live, and in public places you may visit. That network isn't too bad in some places, but is lacking in most for right now (but is expanding). I'd sort of rather the DC fast charge capability was more widely available and that the vehicle came with that standard (as I read, that is an option, and I do not know if that would be an easy dealer add-on, if not bought originally), but if you have one of those around, you'd get an 80% charge in 20-minutes, and 100% (these are from nearly fully depleted, not a normal situation) in 30-minutes. So, stop, get a cup of coffee, read the morning paper, and your car is fully charged. And, on some of these chargers, there is no fee.

Just putting a larger battery into a vehicle is an ever diminishing benefit. Adding weight, decreases range, which calls for more energy, which adds more weight, which...well, you see what I mean. At some point, adding more batteries DECREASES your maximum range.

Looked at the purpose it was designed for, 100-miles can take care of many people's daily drives. I'm retired, but where I worked, even several years ago, they had chargers. The more EVs, the more these are likely to show up.

FWIW, electric fuel plants are generally much more efficient at generating energy, and, when a vehicle is used in a congested area, cutting greenhouse emissions there affects many more people than the pollution from that plant, often much removed from the urban area. So, EVs, where they may best be utilized, in urban areas, benefit everyone in cleaner air, at least in that urban canyon land.

Take a look at some of the recent reports of air pollution in China (been there, it's nasty!)...now, think if many of those vehicles were replaced by EVs.

Last edited by jadnashuanh; 12-15-2013 at 06:55 PM..
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      12-16-2013, 10:16 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by UAM951
Very interesting. He goes over everything.
I agree. I always enjoy his reviews. He does a really good job.

I bet you'll see a lot of these i3's in California.
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      12-16-2013, 10:23 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastoys
80 mile range??? Huh??? What BMW is not do not informing us consumers is that range is only possible if the temperature is 70f, only one passenger under 150lbs, no rain, no auxiliary systems can be running like heat or AC.

In real world driving expect 50 mile range at best. BMW just needs to purchase Tesla and use their formula because they have it figured out.
Are you sure of this or are you just guessing? Since they gave a range of 80-100 I would assume, perhaps incorrectly, that 80 would be the low end where you have extra passengers, different weather, etc., and 100 would be completely ideal conditions.
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      12-16-2013, 03:41 PM   #30
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Electric range is impacted a lot by driving technique. And, if you were mostly in the city at lower speeds with lots of stop and go, you could select one of the eco modes. From their documentation, the base range increases about 12% with each step up the Eco mode chain. Then, consider that if you can precondition the cabin and batteries before you start the trip while still on the charger, your range will have increased as well. By heating or cooling the battery pack, the usable stored energy remains much more constant than with packs that do not do this. The nav system also constantly is monitoring the available energy, comparing it to the set route, and will suggest alternate paths or driving modes to extend your available range. If you follow the computer's suggestions, my guess is your average range will be about what they say...halving it would be a big black eye, and really hurt future sales. My guess is, unless all of your starts are flat out, their numbers are pretty reliable. Keeping the seat heaters and rear defroster on all of the time when cold and not preconditioning the vehicle while still on the charger will adversely affect max range.

We won't know until there's a large sampling, but BMW has lots of test miles on these things and tends to be conservative in their specifications.
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      12-16-2013, 08:08 PM   #31
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As jadnashuanh said range is affected by many variables. The cold and the speed you drive being the two biggest range-robbing culprits.

If you do a lot of 70-80 mph driving you'll get significantly less range than someone that primarily drives secondary roads and does 35-45 mph most of the time.

Also If you live in a cold weather area, your range is going to take a big hit in the winter months also. I wouldn't bank on more than 60 miles of range in temperatures under 30 degrees. The REx makes a lot of sense for people that live in cold weather areas. They won't have to suffer with 20-25% less range From December to March every year.
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      12-18-2013, 01:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
You don't think a Tesla looks like a normal car?
The Tesla is a little (ok a LOT) out of my price range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marioalex24 View Post
+1 on that. I do like the idea of getting an electric car but i wish they would look normal like the other cars. for now fiat 500e is the only to my eyes that looks like or you can confuse it as a normal 500, with out looking into the badges.
I haven't seen one yet, but if its anything like the electric version of the Smart Car, then they will indeed be difficult to tell apart. I still don't like either of those shapes of cars though, personally.
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      01-20-2014, 09:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
The Tesla is a little (ok a LOT) out of my price range.



I haven't seen one yet, but if its anything like the electric version of the Smart Car, then they will indeed be difficult to tell apart. I still don't like either of those shapes of cars though, personally.
I agree. Don't like both designs. But like the idea of having a normal car with with an electric motor.
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      01-21-2014, 03:12 PM   #34
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I got to see an i3 last week, but primarily from the outside. It sort of looks like a more modern upright mini with a nicer interior. It's a long ways from a Smartcar.
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      01-22-2014, 06:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
Good review, I don't know where BMW is headed with this new line, but I'll be waiting with some popcorn while it gets sorted out.

Once it is sorted out, then I can make an informed decision to buy one or not. I hope they bring the things they learn from the i line into their other lines (weight savings, etc) so that the whole brand benefits in the end.

I still wish someone would build an electric car that looks like a normal car. An electric f30 would be nice.
Because it wouldn't sell very well. A lot of the panache of owning an EV is to be different and "enlightened" for saving Mother Earth, so the car HAS to look different. If people who buy EVs that looked like every other normal car, it would not be worth putting up with the range anxiety.
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      01-22-2014, 06:26 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
Electric range is impacted a lot by driving technique. And, if you were mostly in the city at lower speeds with lots of stop and go, you could select one of the eco modes. From their documentation, the base range increases about 12% with each step up the Eco mode chain. Then, consider that if you can precondition the cabin and batteries before you start the trip while still on the charger, your range will have increased as well. By heating or cooling the battery pack, the usable stored energy remains much more constant than with packs that do not do this. The nav system also constantly is monitoring the available energy, comparing it to the set route, and will suggest alternate paths or driving modes to extend your available range. If you follow the computer's suggestions, my guess is your average range will be about what they say...halving it would be a big black eye, and really hurt future sales. My guess is, unless all of your starts are flat out, their numbers are pretty reliable. Keeping the seat heaters and rear defroster on all of the time when cold and not preconditioning the vehicle while still on the charger will adversely affect max range.

We won't know until there's a large sampling, but BMW has lots of test miles on these things and tends to be conservative in their specifications.
Every EV I've read about manages the temperature of the battery pack; it's not like the i3 is the only EV that does maintain the battery pack environment.
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      01-22-2014, 06:50 AM   #37
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very excited about the i3!
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      01-22-2014, 10:02 PM   #38
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Every EV I've read about manages the temperature of the battery pack; it's not like the i3 is the only EV that does maintain the battery pack environment.
Some, like the Nissan Leaf, from what I'm told, isn't anywhere near as sophisticated as others...the Leaf has a heater, but uses air cooling from what I read verses liquid cooling. It's hard to cool things when it's 110F out there, like on a hot day in the desert SW.
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      01-31-2014, 06:18 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
Tesla's formula is to put in MUCH bigger battery packs, which is a major reason why they cost more. The base vehicle has a 60KwHr battery (nearly 2.5 times the one in the i3) and is only rated at double the mileage of the i3. Or, you can opt for the 85KwHr battery, and get all of another 65-miles range (that's 25KwHr more, for lots of money and about 65% of the distance you'd get in the i3's 24KwHr battery pack). So, the i3 is quite a bit more efficient, because of the design, which is driven by weight.

Unless you have a place to plug in any of these EVs, your efficiency goes way down. The Volt, after it has used up much of the battery capacity, doesn't really get all that great mileage running the motor.

The i3, if you opt for the range extender, is more of a battery level sustainer, not a charger - it's output can keep the batteries from dropping while driving at a moderate speed, but you may be hard pressed to climb a steep grade if it's very long. You may get some charging out of it in stop and go, or low speed, but it is unlikely to be able to recharge to full capacity, partly because the tank is so small, and the generator isn't all that big.

Just putting a larger battery into a vehicle is an ever diminishing benefit. Adding weight, decreases range, which calls for more energy, which adds more weight, which...well, you see what I mean. At some point, adding more batteries DECREASES your maximum range.

Looked at the purpose it was designed for, 100-miles can take care of many people's daily drives. I'm retired, but where I worked, even several years ago, they had chargers. The more EVs, the more these are likely to show up.

FWIW, electric fuel plants are generally much more efficient at generating energy, and, when a vehicle is used in a congested area, cutting greenhouse emissions there affects many more people than the pollution from that plant, often much removed from the urban area. So, EVs, where they may best be utilized, in urban areas, benefit everyone in cleaner air, at least in that urban canyon land.

Take a look at some of the recent reports of air pollution in China (been there, it's nasty!)...now, think if many of those vehicles were replaced by EVs.

I also really enjoyed this review and found it compelling that it was, imo, a much better covered review and had substantial coverage to all aspects of the car, rather than just the performance aspect, like many other reviews.

I also felt that the above comment was very valid. The only point I'd query is charging. In theory you'd expect people to charge their car overnight in their garage, etc. So then driving to get a coffee for half an hour will give a top up charge, but not a full and how many 'charge bays' will there be available, let alone free?!

I for one tho, am extremely excited about the release of the iseries and hope they don't have too many real world bugs to ensure positive future aspects built into everyday cars. Imagine a M135 for example with electric capabilities!
As for the look of the i3, its a light, aerodynamic look - Because that's what it is! Unique, modern and calm!
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      01-31-2014, 06:45 PM   #40
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If you opt for the DC Fast Charge option, and (this is the big one) can find a DC Fast charger, in a half hour, you'd have almost a full charge from empty. They claim 80% in 20-minutes. It is likely that fast chargers will not be free, as some of the 3-hour chargers are now. As more electric vehicles show up, there will be more market for people to put in chargers, either to entice customers to come and stay for awhile, or as a business for commuters to reliably recharge so they can make it home. And, if you were going to be at work the full 8-hours or so, a standard wall plug may restore your vehicle to full charge depending on how far you drove to get there. And, it's really nice to be able to precondition it before you actually get in the vehicle while on external power...that leaves the entire battery charge for your trip home, not to make the car warm or cooler.
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      02-02-2014, 08:57 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastoys View Post
Here in the states the Federal Government takes up to $10k of citizen money via tax credits to purchase an EV. In my state of Washington you also receive another 9.5% of tax credits from the people for every EV sold.

If one buys a $45k electric Chevy "Cruz" ($20k) car with the Volt name the top 53% of American tax payers are giving the owner $7,500 dollars. If that same owner is residing in Washington state where I live we tax payers then in charity give that consumer another $4,000 in tax credits. So basically if one were to purchase a $45k EV in WA your fellow citizens are giving you $11,500 of our money for your purchase. Then on top of that they are not paying fuel taxes that are used to construct and rebuild the highway infrastructure that they use. If one is purchasing a $125,000 Tesla, over $20k is redistributed from tax payers to Tesla customer - does that make sense.

Why does one who purchases a $125,000 Tesla need a tax credit? If you like poor quality cars and like to purchase vehicles like the $20k Chevy Volt with a $25k battery and electric motor then why do these folks need money from their fellow Americans. Don't even get me started about Coal powered energy supplying power to these cars.

I would like to see all EVs sell with no tax credits and that they pay for the infrastructure they are using like everyone else. Also, the EV Volt, i3, Nissan Leaf are just cheap cars that look cheap, drive cheap, and have no resale value. Tesla is the only company doing it right! For me, i want to see a 3 series version of the Tesla for under $75k.

When I see the major car companies producing high quality, LONG RANGE EVs that drive as good as a 3 series with similar quality only then will I get excited, until then I will keep saving for that Telsa and driving gas powered BMWS.
So while your arguments regarding tax credits are quite valid regarding the Government promoting new technologies (the Government only has tax-payer money to use anyway) there are many things the Government subsidizes that you also probably not agree with (like food). However, to go make a blanket statement that the Chevy volt is a poor quality car is completely inaccurate (as it also is with the leaf). You've not driven a Volt apparently, or you would probably have a different opinion, only if you could possibly get past your bias towards domestically designed, engineered, and manufactured automobiles. The only similarity between the Cruze and Volt is the basic platform sharing, which considering the entirely different drivetrain, is not much. Please don't try to make the Volt out as an over-priced electrified version of the Cruze, because it is not. You are uninformed my friend; please stop spreading misinformation.
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      02-03-2014, 03:17 PM   #42
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