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      11-27-2017, 02:05 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
Not only this, but you do not need a helmet to ride a motorcycle. It has something to do with the mantra "Live Free or Die". Which is pretty much what those who do not wear seatbelts or helmets get when they are in a serious accident.

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Don't forget, no insurance requirement either! New Hampshire is a funny little state.
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      11-27-2017, 02:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Sad for all 5 of the potential i3 customers.
Correction, 5000+ new sales in 2017 alone just here in America.
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      11-27-2017, 05:50 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jandref321 View Post
Yep...I sold my wife's car, drove to the dealer, ran numbers, ready to sign, told can't buy i3 till probably summer 2018. I called BMWUSA and they said people under 5'2" and 110lbs will receive marginally more physical damage when not wearing a seatbelt in the i3 than in other vehicles. They are apparently working a fix in Germany which may include replacing either the steering wheel or the entire steering column. They expect parts to start manufacturing in January.

Meanwhile here I am needing a car and the wife only sold hers to buy i3...wtf.
"under 5'2" and 110lbs...."

Well, the solution is easy enough for the drivers to remedy the 'Murican way:
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      11-27-2017, 08:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Cool, then we should have the right to leave you by the side of the road dying and not try to resuscitate because you don't even have the basic common sense to even attempt the easiest of motor vehicle safety precautions.

But we don't do that because we live in a civilized society and have to even keep the idiots alive. And the rest of us pay for it.
Nope, you don't have the right; you don't have the responsibility. Leave me by the side of the road; I'm good with that, I didn't ask you to. I don't have the responsibility to protect you, or try to resuscitate you for your choices.

Deal?
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      11-27-2017, 08:35 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Time get a Chevy Bolt with its 238 miles of usable range.
We actually went to check out the bolt but it’s a very different vehicle from an i3 or a BMW in general. Felt like the door cards would fall off with a hard slam. I think with some soft touch plastics and sound insulation it would be better. Also, it’s way more expensive to lease a bolt than an i3 since Chevy don’t play that incentive game...at least in Hawai‘i...like $300 difference per month in payment
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      11-27-2017, 09:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Cool, then we should have the right to leave you by the side of the road dying and not try to resuscitate because you don't even have the basic common sense to even attempt the easiest of motor vehicle safety precautions.

But we don't do that because we live in a civilized society and have to even keep the idiots alive. And the rest of us pay for it.
Nope, you don't have the right; you don't have the responsibility. Leave me by the side of the road; I'm good with that, I didn't ask you to. I don't have the responsibility to protect you, or try to resuscitate you for your choices.

Deal?
No deal.

It's why we live in a civilized society.
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      11-28-2017, 12:06 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Rekla View Post
Year end no-sales event.
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      11-28-2017, 04:20 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
No deal.

It's why we live in a civilized society.
What is uncivilized about allowing a person to have the freedom to do with their body what they want?
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      11-28-2017, 08:19 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
No deal.

It's why we live in a civilized society.
What is uncivilized about allowing a person to have the freedom to do with their body what they want?
Because we live in a society where other people have to pay for the consequences of your decisions.

Want to do whatever you want? Go buy an island
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      11-28-2017, 08:52 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Because we live in a society where other people have to pay for the consequences of your decisions.

Want to do whatever you want? Go buy an island
Interesting. So around 45,000 people in the US die every year in motor vehicle accidents due to poor decisions by drivers. Yet society still lets these people operate motor vehicles when they clearly possess little or no real ability to drive safely or are too uninterested in learning how to properly drive. But for some reason you pick on helmet-less motorcyclists as being a burden on society?

Of the 4,600 motorcycle deaths in 2015, 60% were helmet wearing and 38% were unhemeted, 2% were unknown. So clearly more motorcyclists die with a helmet on than don't. Considering the idea is that helmets protect riders from head injuries it is more probable that helemeted riders survive crashes and deal with debilitating injuries post accident than do helemtless riders who are more likely to just die. So your argument about helmet-less motorcyclists being a burden on society is inverse to logic. A dead motorcyclist is not a burden on society. A helmeted motorcyclist who survives an accident is the burden assuming his insurance doesn't cover all his injuries.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 11-28-2017 at 09:23 AM..
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      11-28-2017, 10:07 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Interesting. So around 45,000 people in the US die every year in motor vehicle accidents due to poor decisions by drivers. Yet society still lets these people operate motor vehicles when they clearly possess little or no real ability to drive safely or are too uninterested in learning how to properly drive. But for some reason you pick on helmet-less motorcyclists as being a burden on society?

Of the 4,600 motorcycle deaths in 2015, 60% were helmet wearing and 38% were unhemeted, 2% were unknown. So clearly more motorcyclists die with a helmet on than don't. Considering the idea is that helmets protect riders from head injuries it is more probable that helemeted riders survive crashes and deal with debilitating injuries post accident than do helemtless riders who are more likely to just die. So your argument about helmet-less motorcyclists being a burden on society is inverse to logic. A dead motorcyclist is not a burden on society. A helmeted motorcyclist who survives an accident is the burden assuming his insurance doesn't cover all his injuries.
Wow, whataboutism and a strawman, two logical fallacies in one argument.

Bravo!

By your logic, we shouldn't have seatbelts, crumple zones, airbags, etc because they might allow the driver to survive! And you know what happens when they survive, medical needs! Just think how we could cut down on the medical expenses in this country if they just died! Insurance would cost less and the hospitals would be less crowded!

Win, win
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      11-28-2017, 10:51 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Wow, whataboutism and a strawman, two logical fallacies in one argument.

Bravo!

By your logic, we shouldn't have seatbelts, crumple zones, airbags, etc because they might allow the driver to survive! And you know what happens when they survive, medical needs! Just think how we could cut down on the medical expenses in this country if they just died! Insurance would cost less and the hospitals would be less crowded!

Win, win
I love these fancy internet terms-of-argument everyone just throws around now: strawman... Whatabougtism...

It's your position that people who choose to ride a motorcycle without wearing a helmet are a burden on society. I can make that same argument with hikers, rock climbers, mountain bikers, drug users, unwed teenage mothers, smokers, dancers, etc. The list can go on and on. If two motorcyclists have the exact same accident, one wearing a helmet and one not, your position is the helmeted motorcyclist is less likely to sustain a head injury and most likely the unhemeted rider will suffer a severe head injury likely leading to his death. Brain injuries are caused by the brain being injured by hitting the inside of the skull. Brain injuries are what you are alluding to when you make the burden on society argument. Helmets do not protect riders from all types of brain injuries and their effectiveness is inverse to speed.

By my logic, people could CHOOSE to by a vehicle that has seatbelts, crumple zones, airbags; none of which a motorcycle has, so by your logic motorcycles shouldn't be sold to the public and allowed to be operated on the public road system.

My original argument was and still is about choice, not the effectiveness of the apparatus.
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      11-28-2017, 12:42 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I love these fancy internet terms-of-argument everyone just throws around now: strawman... Whatabougtism...
Well, stop using logical fallacies to attempt an argument then. After all, it's a choice.


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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
It's your position that people who choose to ride a motorcycle without wearing a helmet are a burden on society. I can make that same argument with hikers, rock climbers, mountain bikers...
Well, no, you can't. The majority of the people in those sports take precautions and wear safety gear whether it be a harness, a rope, good pair of hiking boots, and even, gasp, a helmet!

Now you can make that argument against drug users, etc because, you know, it's illegal and all. We, as a society, have determined that doing heroin is not conducive to your health. Much like riding a motorcycle without a helmet.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
My original argument was and still is about choice, not the effectiveness of the apparatus.
And my argument is still you do not get to do whatever the hell you want in a society. We, as a society have decided shooting other people, dropping pollutants into a river, driving 100 mph on a public road, riding a motorcycle without a helmet are not something that is deemed acceptable.

Now, you can still do it all you want. There are consequences though. So you know, choice.
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      11-28-2017, 07:40 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Correction, 5000+ new sales in 2017 alone just here in America.
5000 in 10 months? So like 500/month on average? That too with BMW giving them away like Halloween candy? More proof that the i division is toast.
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      11-28-2017, 07:52 PM   #59
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5000 in 10 months? So like 500/month on average? That too with BMW giving them away like Halloween candy? More proof that the i division is toast.
That's just the US. And it's still way more than "5".
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      11-29-2017, 05:31 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Well, stop using logical fallacies to attempt an argument then. After all, it's a choice.




Well, no, you can't. The majority of the people in those sports take precautions and wear safety gear whether it be a harness, a rope, good pair of hiking boots, and even, gasp, a helmet!

Now you can make that argument against drug users, etc because, you know, it's illegal and all. We, as a society, have determined that doing heroin is not conducive to your health. Much like riding a motorcycle without a helmet.

And my argument is still you do not get to do whatever the hell you want in a society. We, as a society have decided shooting other people, dropping pollutants into a river, driving 100 mph on a public road, riding a motorcycle without a helmet are not something that is deemed acceptable.

Now, you can still do it all you want. There are consequences though. So you know, choice.
Only 19 states have universal helmet laws. 28 have some type of helmet law (usually for people under 18 - non-adults- who are not legally able to make their own decisions). So only 38% of society believes in mandatory motorcycle helmet use. 62% of society believes people (adults) should be able to chose for themselves.

Well yes I can make the argument. Regardless of the safety equipment, a small minority of hikers, rock climbers, etc. do get injured, or trapped, or lost, and society (with helicopters) comes to their rescue; sounds like a burden to me. But you see, I'm good with that, because it all works out in the end; they get to hike/rock climb and get lost or injured and get rescued and I get to ride without a helmet. See how that works? People should have the choice to hike as they wish and society should have capability in place to try and rescue them when they get into trouble. The National Park Service alone had over 2,600 search/rescue missions last year, about 1,800 helmetless motorcyclists die each year. In Washington state alone they have over 800 rescues a year. You make up some bullshit accusation that helmetless motorcyclists are a burden on society.

Yes we do have laws protecting society from abhorrent behavior of its citizens. Stupid argument alert!... Murdering someone is making an abhorrent choice that affects another single person, that's why it's illegal. Is this new news?
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      11-29-2017, 07:36 AM   #61
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Look buddy, I honestly don't even care if you ride a motorcycle with or without a helmet. Obviously you have a bug up your ass about it. The law isn't preventing you. The law in this case is taking something that should be common sense, like wearing a seat belt in a car, and adding a small consequence to attempt to instill some common sense into someone who obviously is lacking it. Maybe since the threat of death isn't working, maybe a small monetary threat will push that person into making a safe decision. But maybe not. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

Continue to try to make this about some grandiose notion of freedom of choice. Don't worry, there are still plenty of truly stupid stuff that you can do.
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      11-29-2017, 10:02 AM   #62
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Got a call yesterday that the Head Unit in my '17 i3Rex needs to be replaced in order to get the RTTI to work.. Unit has to be special delivered from Germany..

No mention of the Frontal Crash issue/fix...

...to be continued
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      11-29-2017, 12:29 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Look buddy, I honestly don't even care if you ride a motorcycle with or without a helmet. Obviously you have a bug up your ass about it. The law isn't preventing you. The law in this case is taking something that should be common sense, like wearing a seat belt in a car, and adding a small consequence to attempt to instill some common sense into someone who obviously is lacking it. Maybe since the threat of death isn't working, maybe a small monetary threat will push that person into making a safe decision. But maybe not. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

Continue to try to make this about some grandiose notion of freedom of choice. Don't worry, there are still plenty of truly stupid stuff that you can do.
Don't worry that guy has a big up his $&@ with just about anything.

Your better off to just leave him be .
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      11-29-2017, 02:02 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Look buddy, I honestly don't even care if you ride a motorcycle with or without a helmet. Obviously you have a bug up your ass about it. The law isn't preventing you. The law in this case is taking something that should be common sense, like wearing a seat belt in a car, and adding a small consequence to attempt to instill some common sense into someone who obviously is lacking it. Maybe since the threat of death isn't working, maybe a small monetary threat will push that person into making a safe decision. But maybe not. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

Continue to try to make this about some grandiose notion of freedom of choice. Don't worry, there are still plenty of truly stupid stuff that you can do.
Threat of death. Since a motorcycle offers zero passive occupant protection, where automobiles have a plethora of passive occupant protection, and motorcycles only have active occupant protection (i.e. rider skill level and experience), do you really think that motorcyclists do not understand to concept of wearing a helmet as added protection? By the definitions you've offered here, your opinion is riding a motorcycle is for the stupid.

So it being a matter of choice is the prevalent discussion point. I have a bug up my ass because uneducated people come on here and talk about shit they know nothing about.
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      11-29-2017, 02:43 PM   #65
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If you're stupid enough not to wear a seatbelt, you kinda fall into Darwin's law of evolution...
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      11-29-2017, 04:51 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Threat of death. Since a motorcycle offers zero passive occupant protection, where automobiles have a plethora of passive occupant protection, and motorcycles only have active occupant protection (i.e. rider skill level and experience), do you really think that motorcyclists do not understand to concept of wearing a helmet as added protection? By the definitions you've offered here, your opinion is riding a motorcycle is for the stupid.

So it being a matter of choice is the prevalent discussion point. I have a bug up my ass because uneducated people come on here and talk about shit they know nothing about.
You can ride a motorcycle all you want. Putting a helmet on is a simple safety precaution. Risk mitigation. ORM. Common sense. Whatever you want to call it.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand bouncing your head off the asphalt even at 20 mph = vegetable or with a helmet, you get some road rash and walk away. I know too many people who have dumped their bikes because of road debris or other drivers and would be dead if they weren't wearing a helmet. Your skill on a bike only goes so far.

Fortunately most of my friends aren't idiots and practice common sense.
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