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      02-19-2014, 09:30 AM   #67
monkawekrue
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nice. congrats OP.
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      02-19-2014, 05:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
I admit your post has confused me. My wife has put down a deposit on this car and it's the first time she's willing to go beyond Honda so we're both excited about it

But the BMW dealer we're dealing with was very clear that we will want to purchase a 240vac charging station and have an electrician install it. They seemed to think this was no big deal. I think it is critically important. There is no way we could use this car if it takes 18 hours for a full charge.

Are you suggesting that 240vac charging will be problematic for these cars?

Pat

Edit: I may have mis-read your post as saying 240vac charging was not easy but I see you were referring to a custom cable, I think.
In Europe and many other places, the standard wall plug is 240vac. WHerever the i3 is sold, it comes with a cable to recharge at a standard wall plug. You cannot buy a 240-vac charging cable from Europe, since both ends of the cable are different! So, making a custom one to plug directly into a 240vac US socket, is not an easy solution. Plugging directly into a wall socket is referred to as level 1.

BUT, the 240vac, level 2 chargers sold in the USA to charge the i3 come with an attached cable that plugs directly into the i3.

There's more to it than just a cable and plugs when you go to level 2 chargers...the charger generates a signal and the vehicle responds so that the vehicle and the charger know how fast the vehicle can accept a charge. The 'dumb' line voltage, level 1 chargers aren't as sophisticated. Plus, the level 2 chargers also have an interlock in them so that there's no power on the pins until you lock the connector on the car, but the level 1 cord (as far as I know) is basically like plugging it into the wall like any appliance...there's power as soon as it is plugged in.
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      02-19-2014, 07:36 PM   #69
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In the EV world, the term "charger" often gets used incorrectly, which often causes confusion. Most EV's, the BMW i3 included, have the actual charger built in to the car. That box on the wall, its cable, and plug constitute what is referred to as Electric Vehicle Support Equipment (EVSE) which is pretty much a fancy extension cord with logic built in to allow the vehicle and electrical source to negotiate niceties such as max charge rate, and whether or not the EVSE is connected (which prevents the vehicle from driving off while plugged in).

You can easily and inexpensively build your own EVSE cable assembly with any combination of plug you choose (see OpenEVSE). I built mine a couple of years ago for about $200 when J1772 plugs were hard to find and crazy expensive. Probably a bit cheaper now.

Last edited by ultraturtle; 02-20-2014 at 06:31 AM.. Reason: added OpenEVSE link
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      02-22-2014, 04:30 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
Hi,
Have you measured any charge times for your new car? I'd love to hear about charging first hand from someone who owns the car.

Pat
Hello. Seems like 15km/hour. No problem getting a fully charged and pre-warmed car after charging at work or at night.
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      02-22-2014, 07:11 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
Your comments about whether the EVs fit your commute are totally valid. Indeed, the fact that my own commute aligned well with the Volt's EV range was a big factor in my choice of that car. Now, however, I am looking beyond just thing like "range" and "saving money" in my next EV candidate. Look where we are...we are on a BMW forum. A Camry is a much better cost proposition than a 3 series...true at initial purchase and TCO is worse still with a BMW (esp if you dare to own post warranty). The whole "pay you back" discussion seems to be reserved for EVs. No one asks how long a 335i takes to pay you back over a Camry, or how long the leather seats take to pay you back over cloth, or turbo 6, or M-sport packages take to pay you back. My argument is that an EV drivetrain is, in and of itself, a "feature" worth having even if it never saved you a dime. The more powerful ones are worth just that much more.
I think the reason people ask what the payback is of an EV, or even hybrids for that matter, is because EVs/hybrids use a alternative technology to provide a service that is already served with a very well-established infrastructure and low cost total ownership. Added on top of that, EVs are highly range limited and re-fuel challenged. So there is naturally a need for one to determine the value of adopting a new technology to do something that is already done very well. In the choice between leather vs. cloth neither choice determines a drastic difference in usability of the device.

The choice between a 335i and a Camry is a matter of preference of dynamic performance quality and perceived social status (supplanted by "green" cars saving the plant for some people). Turbos don't limit vehicle performance as does an EV drivetrain. But for me, a person who likes to get 250,000 mile out of a car without major component replacement (engine, trans, etc.), turbos are a not a benefit in my view. Any savings in fuel cost get washed out by increased maintenance cost and inconvenience of down time.

If EVs offered the range and rapid refuel capabilities of a petro-powered automobile, at or near the same price, the consumer would flock to them. Most people, in my opinion, don't appreciate the value of the smooth and quite drivability benefits of the EV drivetrain, as outweighing the increase cost and lost practicality of the technology.
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      02-22-2014, 10:30 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I think the reason people ask what the payback is of an EV, or even hybrids for that matter, is because EVs/hybrids use a alternative technology to provide a service that is already served with a very well-established infrastructure and low cost total ownership. Added on top of that, EVs are highly range limited and re-fuel challenged. So there is naturally a need for one to determine the value of adopting a new technology to do something that is already done very well. In the choice between leather vs. cloth neither choice determines a drastic difference in usability of the device.

The choice between a 335i and a Camry is a matter of preference of dynamic performance quality and perceived social status (supplanted by "green" cars saving the plant for some people). Turbos don't limit vehicle performance as does an EV drivetrain. But for me, a person who likes to get 250,000 mile out of a car without major component replacement (engine, trans, etc.), turbos are a not a benefit in my view. Any savings in fuel cost get washed out by increased maintenance cost and inconvenience of down time.

If EVs offered the range and rapid refuel capabilities of a petro-powered automobile, at or near the same price, the consumer would flock to them. Most people, in my opinion, don't appreciate the value of the smooth and quite drivability benefits of the EV drivetrain, as outweighing the increase cost and lost practicality of the technology.
I'm not sure most people appreciate "dynamic performance quality" either, and given the premiums of BMW options (often adding $10-$15K to the base price of a given model) the increased cost of EV isn't as dramatic as one might imagine. I can't argue with the loss or practicality, but as the tech improves that loss will be diminished greatly. Indeed, with my Volt I achieve 87% of the value of a pure EV w/o the compromise in practicality already.
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      02-22-2014, 11:40 PM   #73
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If you're looking for one vehicle that is potentially more flexible, the Volt works since it can continue longer distances than a pure EV. But, My goal is a vehicle that does not have the engine to worry about with its attendant issues with spark plugs, oil changes, muffler rotting out. That can do repeated, short trips and never look back. I tried to sit in a Volt, and I just don't fit, which also makes things a no-go.

I have not had a chance to deal with a real i3 yet, but hope it does fit, and for 90% of my driving, it could work very well.

There are lots of different vehicles out there for good reason, people's needs and desires vary. Variety is the spice of life...this one is spicy.
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      02-23-2014, 06:21 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
I'm not sure most people appreciate "dynamic performance quality" either, and given the premiums of BMW options (often adding $10-$15K to the base price of a given model) the increased cost of EV isn't as dramatic as one might imagine. I can't argue with the loss or practicality, but as the tech improves that loss will be diminished greatly. Indeed, with my Volt I achieve 87% of the value of a pure EV w/o the compromise in practicality already.
Which is why I've been arguing on here the Volt is actually the better design, because it really suits a wider audience than the i3. My issue with the Volt for my use is I'd only achieve 50% or less of the EV value, which at it's original price (when I first did my TOC calculations), there were other economy cars that came in less expensive to purchase and use. Now that the Volt has come down $5K in price it may be a better scenario.

And your right, as any technology progresses and amortization of the development cost get spread over a larger market base, the price usually comes down. One of the Volt's issues is overcoming the perception of poor GM manufacturing quality, which is about 20 years out of date, which keeps buyers away from it. If the consumer could get past that hurdle and take interest in understanding what the Volt is (they too often compare it to the Prius), it would gain more acceptance. Throw in the crap about the financial bailout (I don't see people saying they are going to stop investing in the stock market, or buying milk) and it makes matters worse for the Volt. But when it was introduced the "payback" question was totally on the forefront of the discussion about it. The worst information that got out was that the Volt shared platform design with the Cruze, which led to the payback comparison to a $20K econobox. The Volt an Cruze have in common about as much is they both use various metals in their construction and they both have wheels.

The i3 enjoys some market-perceived quality superiority that BMW somehow owns (real owners of BMW know better - I own both late model GM and BMW products), so the acceptance of the i3's tech will not be burdened with the reliability, longevity, and drivability perception issues that the Volt undeservedly does. But your counter comment to the payback question does a disservice to the discussion. You are taking a BMW model and jack it up with BMW's ridiculously expensive option packages to get a base model BMW (I assume a 3-series) price comparable to a $42K i3, when in reality a $32K 1-series, or a $35K 320i, will out perform an i3 in almost any category except fuel use cost. The $10K price delta between a similarly base price 320i ( a perfectly acceptable car w/out fancy options) and an i3 is about 75,000 miles in payback value, which to me and a lot of other consumers is not worth the range and fuel replenishing limitations of the i3.
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      02-23-2014, 12:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
to me and a lot of other consumers is not worth the range and fuel replenishing limitations of the i3.

The i3 only works as a car number two. Or five
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      02-23-2014, 05:47 PM   #76
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I have to agree, something like the Volt could be an only vehicle, where, for most people, the i3 would not. Now, assuming you can afford to have two vehicles, I do think the i3 is a good choice for the more mundane, around-town, day-to-day driving that is at least a moderate part of peoples' use of a vehicle. As I've said before, I am looking for something that can do (very) short trips and not be worried about the engine, oil, mufflers, etc. and their maintenance of an ICE, even a plug-in hybrid. I have a vehicle that I like for longer trips, or where more room is required. My guess is that there is very little required maintenance on the i3 (the REx would have more).
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      02-24-2014, 07:17 AM   #77
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Hello,

Congrats on the car.

I just have a question, how does the i3 soak up or cope with imperfect roads? Because most of the very few video reviews out there really only say its a bit stiff and doesn't elaborate further than that. Can you care to put your input on this or anybody that have driven the i3. Thank you.
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      02-24-2014, 07:39 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Touring View Post
The i3 only works as a car number two. Or five
I really don't agree with that. I think it really depends on the person and their driving needs. For instance, in the past five years I've been driving electric, I've driven my electric cars a little over 140,000 miles and during the same time I've driven my gas car about 15,000 miles. So which is my "car number one"? Is it the car I drive every day for work and to run errand, etc, or the one I take to drive the 200mi trip once a month or so?

Being in BMW's e-mobility program I have seen many of the other participants go completely electric after realizing they really didn't need their gas cars anymore. They may have joined a car sharing service or even just rent a car for the rare days they need to drive on long trips.

A lot of it has to do which where you live, how robust the public charging infrastructure is and how much inconvenience is "too much" for you to accept. I agree it definitely couldn't be the primary vehicle for everyone, but I do contend that it can be for more people than who may realize so. Lets wait till more people get their i3, and have been driving it for a year or so and then we can do a poll here asking if they consider it the households primary vehicle. The results may surprise many here.
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      02-24-2014, 08:04 AM   #79
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Already the i3 is my primary vehicle , thats the only one I drive nowadays

But this weekend Im going to the mountains for skiing. Then I use the F11.
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