[cc3]

Originally Posted by LMOR

I agree that it is a little bit in the grey zone not to mention that the total was 4 stars, but they just state the same thing that I have tried to show, that on car safety they got 5 stars. And on pedestrian and safety systems they just ignore it, because EuroNcap is not willing to give them credit for all the safety systems, even if they are standard.

I think there is also a wider issue here and that is poor pedestrian protection from electric cars. This is important given the near silent running.

BMW will also need to improve the seats and headrests in the i3 given the comments about poor whiplash protection.

[LMOR]

That's fine with me that you have that view, but I disagree. My BMW 5 is hot heard by pedestrian 5 meters away. I think all city cars should have a city safety package. We have to pay the same price even if it is included as standard.

When it come to neck support, see my first posting in this tread. I think it is something with the flexibility in the seats from BMW and MB that is the reason for a bad score. If you compare the films, I want to be in the i3 seat, and not the Mazda seat! So I really hope they do dot adapt the seat to get a good score, but make a seat that actually help a real persons neck...

[tommolog]

The i3 actually scored VERY well in the crash tests for driver passengers safety. It more than qualified for 5 stars for the crash test part and just barely missed the 5 star overall combined rating.

BMW actually kinda screwed themselves by making two things optional. If the rear seatbelt warning lights and the speed limit display were standard, the car would have received a 5 star overall rating. These two items are bundled in optional packages in Europe and the testing is only on standard equipment cars.

So in reality, the 4 star rating had nothing to do with any of the crash test parts of the testing. The low score in the "Safety Assist" section pushed the overall score just below the 5 star threshold. It's funny, because these items are standard on US i3's so it would have received a 5 star rating if this test was for the US. We'll have to wait for the spring and see what NHTSA and the IIHS have to say.

Below is a comparison of the 5-star rated Chevy Volt and the i3. You can see the i3 scored higher than the Volt in all of the crash tests, including pedestrian safety - which people here seem to be focusing on for some strange reason. It's clear the Safety Assist category doomed the score because of the optional safety equipment.

[LMOR]

Nice that at least one more sees through the fog... But where do you read that rear seat belt warning is part of a package?

[cc3]

Originally Posted by tommolog

The i3 actually scored VERY well in the crash tests for driver passengers safety. It more than qualified for 5 stars for the crash test part and just barely missed the 5 star overall combined rating.

BMW actually kinda screwed themselves by making two things optional. If the rear seatbelt warning lights and the speed limit display were standard, the car would have received a 5 star overall rating. These two items are bundled in optional packages in Europe and the testing is only on standard equipment cars.

So in reality, the 4 star rating had nothing to do with any of the crash test parts of the testing. The low score in the "Safety Assist" section pushed the overall score just below the 5 star threshold. It's funny, because these items are standard on US i3's so it would have received a 5 star rating if this test was for the US. We'll have to wait for the spring and see what NHTSA and the IIHS have to say.

Below is a comparison of the 5-star rated Chevy Volt and the i3. You can see the i3 scored higher than the Volt in all of the crash tests, including pedestrian safety - which people here seem to be focusing on for some strange reason. It's clear the Safety Assist category doomed the score because of the optional safety equipment.

But the i3 not so strong when you look at other EV's. The motoring press I have read say its more than needing a seat belt warning sign. Reference to seats and headrests not offering sufficient protection against whiplash? and that pole test didn't look great??

http://www.euroncap.com/results/evs_hybrids.aspx

[LMOR]

I think this will be my last post here, because no-one seems to read them, repeating the same issues. I cannot see anyone on the list significantly better than i3. Most of them worse. Lexus CT200h being the best have the same issue with pole crash, and lower score wrt pedestrians, and so one... The neck test must be wrong, but anyway better that large safe cars. One might consider looking at the slow motion video, as I suggested in my first post, before one comment. The are no sign at all that the neck get any movement. And several with high score shows that the neck is bent, before it is thrown forward again. And at the other end you normally have the airbag...

[cc3]

Wonder how BMW took their eye off the ball here. Was it trying to trim costs and taking items out of the spec like seat belt warning for the rear. Or was it the strive to save weight that they compromised a bit on the seat and head rest design. Shows how much attention to detail is needed to get to the top of the table. If the magazines had headlines saying the i3 gets 5 stars this thread wouldn't exist and the front page would be saying how brilliant the NCAP scores are !!

I would like to see BMW say we take the NCAP comments on board and are fixing it from production date xxxxx

[tommolog]

Again, the car scored 5 stars in crash tests for all of the occupants, including whiplash and any other potential injuries. These tests are severe and there are comments like the whiplash comment on the i3 for most cars. You can score 5 of 5 and still have some minor notes like this is. If it was a major problem, the car would have never scored 5 stars for crash protection.

But as many (including me) have said, BMW kinda dropped the ball on this one because the car could have very easily achieved a 5 of 5 overall score if they simply had the rear seat belt and speed limit notification icon included. Seemingly minor things if you ask me and neither of which would decrease the safety of the car for my use as all.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by tommolog

Again, the car scored 5 stars in crash tests for all of the occupants, including whiplash and any other potential injuries. These tests are severe and there are comments like the whiplash comment on the i3 for most cars. You can score 5 of 5 and still have some minor notes like this is. If it was a major problem, the car would have never scored 5 stars for crash protection.

But as many (including me) have said, BMW kinda dropped the ball on this one because the car could have very easily achieved a 5 of 5 overall score if they simply had the rear seat belt and speed limit notification icon included. Seemingly minor things if you ask me and neither of which would decrease the safety of the car for my use as all.

So if it really is that simple why don't BMW come out and say we are fixing these two items from production date xxxx. If they don't then we can only assume it is rather more complex than this?

[tommolog]

Originally Posted by gaz26

So if it really is that simple why don't BMW come out and say we are fixing these two items from production date xxxx. If they don't then we can only assume it is rather more complex than this?

Or that they are satisfied with the crash test results and are leaving it at that. The did send out a press release praising how well it did in the crash tests and that it achieved a 5 star crash test rating for passenger protection:


From Munich:

The BMW i3 achieved the highest rating of five stars in the Euro NCAP crash tests governing occupant protection and child protection that coincided with its market launch. As expected, the electric car matches the performance of the best conventionally powered vehicles in its segment in the area of passive safety. The Integral safety concept covers everything from collision avoidance to Intelligent Emergency Call and also meets requirements above and beyond Euro NCAP.

Its revolutionary new vehicle concept allows the BMW i3 to offer customers not only smile-inducing driving pleasure and outstanding environmental performance, but also top marks in terms of safety. An integral safety concept put together for the BMW Group’s first all-electric model includes everything from driver assistance systems focusing on collision avoidance, via passive safety to the Intelligent Emergency Call function – and complies with all global accident protection standards.
The aim of BMW’s integral safety concept is to achieve an optimum combination of active and passive systems that is geared to real-life traffic and accident situations. Among the active measures included as part of this concept are preventive systems which help the driver to avoid accidents. The Driving Assistant Plus system available for the BMW i3 includes both Collision Warning and Pedestrian Warning with braking function. Unique in the segment, this system helps – in urban traffic, in particular – to either prevent collisions or significantly reduce the intensity of the impact. Meanwhile, precisely defined load paths, generously sized deformation zones, a passenger cell whose strength allows it to serve as a survival space, and electronically controlled restraint systems with precisely interlinked functionality team up to optimise occupant protection if a crash is unavoidable. Likewise unique in this segment is the Intelligent Emergency Call function with automatic vehicle location and accident severity detection – a standard feature in the BMW i3. This system, which automatically establishes a telephone link with a call centre, thus cutting down the time it takes for the rescue services to be alerted, earned the BMW Group the special Euro NCAP Advanced Award from the European crash testing institute in 2010. As things stand, the standard testing process still does not include the Intelligent Emergency Call function in its assessments. Legal requirements stipulating the inclusion of a system of this kind in all newly registered vehicles across the EU will not come into force until 2015.
The effectiveness of all the passive safety systems in the BMW i3 was analysed during the car’s development process in numerous crash tests conducted by the BMW Group’s accident research specialists and in cooperation with independent experts. As part of this process, all the accident scenarios referred to for vehicle registration processes and consumer protection tests around the world – above and beyond Euro NCAP testing – were taken into account, including an impact by another vehicle against the rear of the BMW i3 and a roll-over situation.

An extremely rigid passenger cell made from carbon-fibre-reinforced plastic (CFRP) and the precise interplay of its restraint systems allowed the BMW i3 to record outstanding results for adult occupant and child occupant protection in the Euro NCAP crash test. The testers noted an exceptionally low risk of injury in both front and side impacts, as well as in the Pole Side Impact test. Particularly striking here was the low degree of deformation in the CFRP passenger cell, which also enhances the effectiveness of the restraint systems.

[ddk632]

@gaz26,

BMW is a company which like other companies has policies and procedures in place and if the test was just released, and a public response hasn't yet been issued, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't aware of the results and/or not doing anything about it.

Most likely they are reviewing the results and considering options and running cost benefit analysis on a solution to improve the score. It's entirely possible that the result of said cost benefit analysis and the projected impact of the score on sales may not have enough weight to require any current action. All of these processes take time, meetings, evaluations, and more meetings within a company before a course of action is decided. It's unreasonable to expect some knee jerk reaction the day after a test result is announced in one of the 50+ markets in which the car is going to be sold.

You are the only poster here that appears to have a problem with this and is focusing on the numbers/scoring vs looking at the big picture.

In other words, if this result were to have a significant sales impact, or lots of cancelled orders, it would fly to the top of the i3 to-do list of fixes and be rectified.

If I recall from your other posts, you cancelled your i3 order well before this safety test result was announced; since then, you've been regularly posting all the negative news and articles and opinions you can find regarding the i3 - it's almost as if you're on some kind of anti-i3 mission since you cancelled your order.

BMW cars have always been known for safety and I believe the i3 is no exception. You're arguing based on a technicality that doesn't even apply to occupant safety, which is most important in a crash situation.

I drove the i3 the other day and really enjoyed it. I am not in the market for one (have a deposit down for an i8) but I was thoroughly impressed and think it's a great little car. If I was in the market for one, this test result wouldn't sway my decision one bit. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

@LMOR I've been reading your posts, so there's at least one, and agree with your premises in general as noted in my response to @gaz26 above. You can't sway someone who's as determined as he is to dislike this vehicle and find out all of the negative press about it as he can; even facts and logic cannot break through this barrier!

Edited to add, I was wrong about the quickness of a response from BMW as @tommolog has demonstrated in the post above this one. Either way my point stands, the decision to change production to improve on the safety test result is purely going to be a financial one just like any business decision should be. Looks like BMW doesn't see the need here to make any changes.

[LMOR]

Perfect, then I have someone that reads and understands the posts :-)

The BMW 5 series before mine, got 4 stars. They did not do anything about it for 6 years, until the new version. (They got 1 star for pedestrian support).

MB E-class is regarded, at least in Norway, to be one of the safest car your can get, they got 6,7 in pole crash and 2.5 in whiplash test and 59% in pedestrian safety, and have not changed it since the test 3 years ago.

i3 is more or less sold out, and I think as you, that the score is excellent, even very impressive for a car without a B-pillar. So unless a significant part of the customers stop buying this car. Why should the change anything?

The press release shows that this is also what the management thinks, so far.

There have been no evidence so far, that BMWs and MBs own crash tests is not as good or better than EuroNcap?

So until I die in the i3, I trust BMW :-)

[cc3]

Originally Posted by ddk632

@gaz26,

BMW is a company which like other companies has policies and procedures in place and if the test was just released, and a public response hasn't yet been issued, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't aware of the results and/or not doing anything about it.

Most likely they are reviewing the results and considering options and running cost benefit analysis on a solution to improve the score. It's entirely possible that the result of said cost benefit analysis and the projected impact of the score on sales may not have enough weight to require any current action. All of these processes take time, meetings, evaluations, and more meetings within a company before a course of action is decided. It's unreasonable to expect some knee jerk reaction the day after a test result is announced in one of the 50+ markets in which the car is going to be sold.

You are the only poster here that appears to have a problem with this and is focusing on the numbers/scoring vs looking at the big picture.

In other words, if this result were to have a significant sales impact, or lots of cancelled orders, it would fly to the top of the i3 to-do list of fixes and be rectified.

If I recall from your other posts, you cancelled your i3 order well before this safety test result was announced; since then, you've been regularly posting all the negative news and articles and opinions you can find regarding the i3 - it's almost as if you're on some kind of anti-i3 mission since you cancelled your order.

BMW cars have always been known for safety and I believe the i3 is no exception. You're arguing based on a technicality that doesn't even apply to occupant safety, which is most important in a crash situation.

I drove the i3 the other day and really enjoyed it. I am not in the market for one (have a deposit down for an i8) but I was thoroughly impressed and think it's a great little car. If I was in the market for one, this test result wouldn't sway my decision one bit. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

@LMOR I've been reading your posts, so there's at least one, and agree with your premises in general as noted in my response to @gaz26 above. You can't sway someone who's as determined as he is to dislike this vehicle and find out all of the negative press about it as he can; even facts and logic cannot break through this barrier!

Edited to add, I was wrong about the quickness of a response from BMW as @tommolog has demonstrated in the post above this one. Either way my point stands, the decision to change production to improve on the safety test result is purely going to be a financial one just like any business decision should be. Looks like BMW doesn't see the need here to make any changes.

Nothing wrong in a democracy to see a range of views? If every decision was purely financial manufacturers would never do the number of recalls they have to. You make a lot of assumptions! I like the car but no reason to be complacent and accept all the spin.

[LMOR]

One of many examples from real life, this car got orange and yellow part all over the place, and would probably get 3 stars if tested now. (before the accident...). A possible whiplash was probably not the drivers main worry after the accident:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11204204...00-kmh-186-mph

If you had any doubts about the safety of the BMW M5, you can rest assured as this horrific accident attests to the benefits of German engineering.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by gaz26

If every decision was purely financial manufacturers would never do the number of recalls they have to. You make a lot of assumptions! I like the car but no reason to be complacent and accept all the spin.

Recalls are most often a financial decision. Otherwise, BMW would have recalled the defective transmission in my 2006 K1200R motorcycle, which was a known and widespread issue, yet a recall was never issued.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, of course.

And it's not spin. I've personally crashed a BMW into a concrete barrier at high speed in the rain, crushing the frontal area and shortening the car's length by 12 inches, and DROVE away from the accident with no injuries (this was a 1993 E36 325i 6MT, which was totaled, but still drove!). I've also known someone who flew off of a bridge in a BMW and walked away from the accident. So it's my personal experience that the safety of BMW cars is not questionable.

[LMOR]

I was wrong, it was an F10 as I have. But still very close to the score of i3.

And there where 3 survivors.

But I found something interesting in the coverage, that actually impact i3:

"A new BMW M5 (F10) with the speed limiter removed"......survivors.... "Quite remarkable, considering the speed they were driving this also shows how safety of cars has been improved over the years. Accidents like this one with the BMW M5 will also fuel the debate on whether or not a general speed limit should be imposed."

But then is it VERY strange that i3 was not given any points, because it actually have a 150km/h fixed speed limiter.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by ddk632

Recalls are most often a financial decision. Otherwise, BMW would have recalled the defective transmission in my 2006 K1200R motorcycle, which was a known and widespread issue, yet a recall was never issued.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, of course.

And it's not spin. I've personally crashed a BMW into a concrete barrier at high speed in the rain, crushing the frontal area and shortening the car's length by 12 inches, and DROVE away from the accident with no injuries (this was a 1993 E36 325i 6MT, which was totaled, but still drove!). I've also known someone who flew off of a bridge in a BMW and walked away from the accident. So it's my personal experience that the safety of BMW cars is not questionable.

Just done a Google search to see how journalists are currently reporting this issue. This seems fairly typical wonder why so many established motoring journalists seem to have this interpretation ?

http://jalopnik.com/the-all-carbon-e...-ou-1473130711

[LMOR]

Back to the photo, it would be interesting to see the i3 after such an accident. The carbon fiber frame would probably be intact. BMW could reuse a frame after a crash test. Again no points for this..

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ddk632

gaz26,

BMW is a company which like other companies has policies and procedures in place and if the test was just released, and a public response hasn't yet been issued, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't aware of the results and/or not doing anything about it.

Most likely they are reviewing the results and considering options and running cost benefit analysis on a solution to improve the score. It's entirely possible that the result of said cost benefit analysis and the projected impact of the score on sales may not have enough weight to require any current action. All of these processes take time, meetings, evaluations, and more meetings within a company before a course of action is decided. It's unreasonable to expect some knee jerk reaction the day after a test result is announced in one of the 50+ markets in which the car is going to be sold.

You are the only poster here that appears to have a problem with this and is focusing on the numbers/scoring vs looking at the big picture.

In other words, if this result were to have a significant sales impact, or lots of cancelled orders, it would fly to the top of the i3 to-do list of fixes and be rectified.

If I recall from your other posts, you cancelled your i3 order well before this safety test result was announced; since then, you've been regularly posting all the negative news and articles and opinions you can find regarding the i3 - it's almost as if you're on some kind of anti-i3 mission since you cancelled your order.

BMW cars have always been known for safety and I believe the i3 is no exception. You're arguing based on a technicality that doesn't even apply to occupant safety, which is most important in a crash situation.

I drove the i3 the other day and really enjoyed it. I am not in the market for one (have a deposit down for an i8) but I was thoroughly impressed and think it's a great little car. If I was in the market for one, this test result wouldn't sway my decision one bit. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

@LMOR I've been reading your posts, so there's at least one, and agree with your premises in general as noted in my response to gaz26 above. You can't sway someone who's as determined as he is to dislike this vehicle and find out all of the negative press about it as he can; even facts and logic cannot break through this barrier!

Edited to add, I was wrong about the quickness of a response from BMW as @tommolog has demonstrated in the post above this one. Either way my point stands, the decision to change production to improve on the safety test result is purely going to be a financial one just like any business decision should be. Looks like BMW doesn't see the need here to make any changes.

This sounds exactly like the Ford Motor Company Circa 1973 with the infamous and incorrectly assessed Pinto fuel tank issue. Where is Ralph Nader when we need him?