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      02-08-2012, 05:52 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Prissy View Post
Concept.... Futuristic? Yes I can't agree more that the concept idea is very nice, but the exterior is just poorly designed IMO. I think BMW can do a much better design (hopefully), I am sure Audi's E-tron looks way better than the i8, and the E-tron has the originality of Audi's styling (mostly from the R8). To me the i8 just look too SyFi.
The Audi E-Tron model is just the R8 electrified. They launched it at Frankfurt last year. The original E-Tron is said to be the beginnings of the next R8 in style and the Spyder, the R4 Before Audi had to cancel it.
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      02-08-2012, 06:06 PM   #112
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From the first part of the video, it looks like it would benefit from an LSD. I heard a definite one wheel spin after it spun out. Also, I hate the sound of hybrids. I really hope that they get this thing right as it would be a staggering achievement for BMW.
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      02-08-2012, 06:11 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delvek
Ignorant even though all the facts are on my side, otay.

Hey do me a favor, count how many electric power up stations and electric cars are in your neighborhood. Let me know when that number changes and I will read up on global oil production/demand. Its a niche market, until the consumers wants it (which they dont as of yet) we wont see it. Like I said, what we see from automakers would piss me off if I was a diehard greenie like yourself. Dont be so niave!

Until then, hammer down
Absolutely agree, the market is not there yet. And to further delay that so we can continue to enjoy NA cars.... Drill baby drill

And do slap a NA v10 in her or make it available in an M variant. The car will sell much better imo.
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      02-08-2012, 06:42 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ateam
This is by far the best looking bmw I have seen in awhile and possibly the best looking protype stage I have ever seen. Really a waste of a great looking car.

Could someone explain to me the point of this car? 3300 pounds is not exactly a lightweight if the point was economy.

What is the expected mileage of this thing?

Don't car companies get that making electricity flow takes burning fossil fuels just like cars do

I am so sick of this disguised energy loss. 99 percent of peopel think hydrogen fueled cars and electric are so green and saves us all oil and gas. Nobody understands it takes energy, oil and fossil fuels that make up gas, to actually produce electricity and get it to flow out across the grid! It also takes ALOT of burned fossil fuels and oil to liquify hydrogen gas into liquid that is needed to be stored in tanks in a hydrogen car.

The ONLY "free" energy that does not rely on oil is wind/turbine and nuclear. I wish they would make a nuclear powered car. That would be sick! I can see htis would not sell well however!!
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      02-08-2012, 08:14 PM   #115
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Gullwing doors... Dammit. This isn't that dramatic of a car so the doors should just open normally
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      02-08-2012, 08:40 PM   #116
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Gullwing doors, really? First the M550d steals Audi's silver mirrors now BMW takes Mercedes' signatures door. Might as well put fake exhaust pipes like on the IS F and slap on a GT-R badge for good measure
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      02-09-2012, 01:14 AM   #117
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Nice to see they kept the concept's butterfly doors. Hope that sound is going to be improved A LOT
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      02-09-2012, 04:45 AM   #118
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There appears to be a fully camo'd X1 towards the end of that video?

Wonder what they're up to with that? SCOTT?
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      02-09-2012, 06:46 AM   #119
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(Note: some info here is repeated from another post I made)
I think this is a trend that we will see much more in the future.
See also the Volkswagen Cross Coupe concept:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/volkswa...-ar120772.html

Both the BMWi8 and the VW Cross Coupe are based on the following concept which gives performance AND low fuel consumption:
- downsized combustion engine which reduces fuel consumption during constant speed.
- electric motor/generator for acceleration and energy recovery, reducing fuel consumption.
- Easy integration of 4wheel drive and traction control.

People would expect a very high cost, but maybe it must not be like that. See following hypothetical consideration based on present Audi prices:
Audi Q5 has options for different engines, all-wheel-drive and hybrid. So let us look what it costs (price list from Germany).
Cost saving:
Engine downsize and eliminate all-wheel-drive: compare 6-cylinder 3.0TDI quattro 49'200Euro (torque 500Nm) with 4-cylinder 2.0TDI 34'850Euro (torque 320Nm).
Saving: about 14'000Euro.
Additional hybrid cost:
Compare 2.0 TFSI quattro 43'900Euro with 2.0TFSI quattro hybrid 53700Euro. Electro motor has a torque of 210Nm.
Additional cost: 10'000Euro.
So in total, there is still a saving, and the torque loss of the engine downsizing is compensated by the electric motor torque.

So all in all, I think it is a very interesting concept for the future. What I do not care about is the all electric drive: battery is bigger, and is the grid electricity low CO2?
Many people who look for low fuel consumption might think of diesel. But think of diesel under future low emission legistlation, very likely requiring SCR selective catalytic reduction using adblue urea (NOx reduction), a diesel particulate filter with a regenerative burner and an oxidation catalyst to reduce volatile hydrocarbons.

I hope I have given some food for thought.
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      02-09-2012, 09:11 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
Could someone explain to me the point of this car? 3300 pounds is not exactly a lightweight if the point was economy.
Sure.
It's easy and simple: public demand - the marketplace - and regulatory requirement - the government. These are in direct opposition to "lightweight."
It is impossible to have a four-seat vehicle with the competitive features that people want and the safety and mileage performance that governments mandate AND have that in a lightweight product that can be afforded by anything other than a miniscule market.
Lamborghini has the only current offering that performs better, has more features, and is lighter than the previous generation. This was realized ONLY with years of engineering and a very expensive design + construction that cannot be mass produced and/or sold for less than $450,000.00.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
I am so sick of this disguised energy loss. 99 percent of peopel think hydrogen fueled cars and electric are so green and saves us all oil and gas. Nobody understands it takes energy, oil and fossil fuels that make up gas, to actually produce electricity and get it to flow out across the grid!
EVERYBODY in the energy industry understands this perfectly.
The statement misses the issues by 60%: Supply and environment are of at least equal importance as efficiency.

The supply of petroleum is becoming more and more limited by actual reserve volume, geopolitics, increasing population and cost. PERIOD. Other sources will be needed.
Supplement and/or replacement must start before it becomes immediately necessary - technology, production and distribution takes years. Starting the process once there is a shortage it is far too late to avoid disruption.

This county - as well as any other entity - cannot both control its destiny and defend itself unless it can be energy independent. We are not in that situation and cannot be as long as "oil" retains its current place in our energy usage.

The increasing demands for energy due to increased population and advancing technological development in the most populous countries make local and global environmental issues critical. China is still relatively early in that process and it already has severe air and water problems, some of which reach even our borders. India is next.
Petroleum has been historically usable in this country only because it has been cheap, plentiful, relatively clean, and fairly local for its first hundred years. All of those advantages have receded and changed dramatically during the past thirty years.

Physics, chemistry and biology are forcing the world to use less oil at some point. This is happening regardless of whether we currently perceive it or understand it or like it. It is time to get ahead of what will be here.*
Ok. Class dismissed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
I wish they would make a nuclear powered car. That would be sick! I can see htis would not sell well however!!
Ha! Def. But talk about your high weight and mediocre performance.

*I have been in the oil&gas industry or related for over twenty years. As partial owner of such a company that has put my boys through college and bought me cars, I fully understand that what I wrote ultimately works against my immediate self-interest. I'm not a hater or a greenie. It's just unavoidable reality.
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      02-09-2012, 05:29 PM   #121
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I wouldn't mind buying an i3 but it looks like a turd in comparison to the i8.

It's almost like BMW designers intentionally made the i3 uglier. Because how can the same design team that designed the i8, also make the i3?
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      02-10-2012, 12:43 AM   #122
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Some more technical info
The i8 has a 1.5liter 3-cylinder engine with 300Nm. Compare that with the new N20 (X1, X3 etc) engine which has 2liter 4-cylinder and 350Nm. So the i8 has 1 cylinder less and 14% higher cylinder torque than the N20.

So the trend seems to be the following:
Step 1: downsize the engine and compensate with turbo boost. This is being done now on several models. Example: from X3 6-cylinder 3liter N52 28i to 4-cylinder 2liter N20 28i. This reduces fuel consumption.
Step2: downsize more and compensate acceleration with electrical generator/motor, which can also be used for brake energy recovery.
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      02-11-2012, 02:23 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Sure.
It's easy and simple: public demand - the marketplace - and regulatory requirement - the government. These are in direct opposition to "lightweight."
It is impossible to have a four-seat vehicle with the competitive features that people want and the safety and mileage performance that governments mandate AND have that in a lightweight product that can be afforded by anything other than a miniscule market.
Lamborghini has the only current offering that performs better, has more features, and is lighter than the previous generation. This was realized ONLY with years of engineering and a very expensive design + construction that cannot be mass produced and/or sold for less than $450,000.00.

EVERYBODY in the energy industry understands this perfectly.
The statement misses the issues by 60%: Supply and environment are of at least equal importance as efficiency.

The supply of petroleum is becoming more and more limited by actual reserve volume, geopolitics, increasing population and cost. PERIOD. Other sources will be needed.
Supplement and/or replacement must start before it becomes immediately necessary - technology, production and distribution takes years. Starting the process once there is a shortage it is far too late to avoid disruption.

This county - as well as any other entity - cannot both control its destiny and defend itself unless it can be energy independent. We are not in that situation and cannot be as long as "oil" retains its current place in our energy usage.

The increasing demands for energy due to increased population and advancing technological development in the most populous countries make local and global environmental issues critical. China is still relatively early in that process and it already has severe air and water problems, some of which reach even our borders. India is next.
Petroleum has been historically usable in this country only because it has been cheap, plentiful, relatively clean, and fairly local for its first hundred years. All of those advantages have receded and changed dramatically during the past thirty years.

Physics, chemistry and biology are forcing the world to use less oil at some point. This is happening regardless of whether we currently perceive it or understand it or like it. It is time to get ahead of what will be here.*
Ok. Class dismissed.


Ha! Def. But talk about your high weight and mediocre performance.

*I have been in the oil&gas industry or related for over twenty years. As partial owner of such a company that has put my boys through college and bought me cars, I fully understand that what I wrote ultimately works against my immediate self-interest. I'm not a hater or a greenie. It's just unavoidable reality.
Thank you for your post... it was honest and accurate.


The next step is hydrogen in on way or another. Energy is stored in one media or another whether it is oil coal or batteries, hydrogen is the next step as a storage media for renewable energy. Take wind power, a well, electrolysis and produce hydrogen which can be burned cleanly and in this manner is renewable.... the question is whether it is combustion or fuel cell and how can this be interpreted to society as a whole.

That is why plugin hybrids make the most sense for the short term, they can use energy that is being produced anyways (plants still run at night and most people charge then) and the current infrastructure with minor mods can accept them.

Germany since it has announced decommissioning the nuclear plants early has gone full on with green energy and there are some things that will come out of it. Notably the idea of storing wind energy as hydrogen gas.

Wind Power Storage: It’s A Gas
by Pete Danko, November 23rd, 2011

The idea of storing excess wind energy as hydrogen is picking up steam in Germany, with a second pilot program popping up – this one from the big power company E.On. But there’s a key difference between the two projects: In Herten, Germany, the company Hydrogenics plans to use power from a wind plant to electrolyze water to produce hydrogen that will be stored and later used in fuel cells to provide power. E.On also intends to use wind to produce hydrogen by electrolysis, but then the hydrogen “will be fed into the Ontras gas pipeline system and be used like normal natural gas,” the company said.
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      02-11-2012, 02:31 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Thank you for your post... it was honest and accurate.


The next step is hydrogen in on way or another. Energy is stored in one media or another whether it is oil coal or batteries, hydrogen is the next step as a storage media for renewable energy. Take wind power, a well, electrolysis and produce hydrogen which can be burned cleanly and in this manner is renewable.... the question is whether it is combustion or fuel cell and how can this be interpreted to society as a whole.

That is why plugin hybrids make the most sense for the short term, they can use energy that is being produced anyways (plants still run at night and most people charge then) and the current infrastructure with minor mods can accept them.

Germany since it has announced decommissioning the nuclear plants early has gone full on with green energy and there are some things that will come out of it. Notably the idea of storing wind energy as hydrogen gas.

Wind Power Storage: It’s A Gas
by Pete Danko, November 23rd, 2011

The idea of storing excess wind energy as hydrogen is picking up steam in Germany, with a second pilot program popping up – this one from the big power company E.On. But there’s a key difference between the two projects: In Herten, Germany, the company Hydrogenics plans to use power from a wind plant to electrolyze water to produce hydrogen that will be stored and later used in fuel cells to provide power. E.On also intends to use wind to produce hydrogen by electrolysis, but then the hydrogen “will be fed into the Ontras gas pipeline system and be used like normal natural gas,” the company said.
I agree that hydrogen is where money should be invested. I disagree that electric vehicles/hybrid electric is the best stop-gap solution. I also worry that the MASSIVE investment that companies are making in electric, coupled with rebates/incentives/tax breaks, could actually undermine development of hydrogen vehicles.
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      02-11-2012, 02:32 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyO View Post
I wouldn't mind buying an i3 but it looks like a turd in comparison to the i8.

It's almost like BMW designers intentionally made the i3 uglier. Because how can the same design team that designed the i8, also make the i3?
Different concepts entirely. The i3 is practical and the design fits the target market- large urban centers where space needs to be optimized. The shape of the car and the design is to make it practical for large cities, parking, lines of sight- There is a reason why hatches and wagons sell in Europe and not the US - notice how the new Prius is boxier and features interior space at the cost of perceived looks? People in the US in major cities in the next few decades will understand this, those in the 'burbs drying Yukons will not.

In person the i3 makes sense in current form but the "concept" will undergo changes before it reaches market.

The i8 is a sports car and thus shares the typical low slung lines and more sporty appearance- it is a halo for a reason.

While both cars are under the guise of BMWi they are really quite different in concept and show how the BMWi team is looking at multiple answers and targeting a variety of customers, not just one type of person or one type of environment.

Different designers penned the cars but the teams were given the mission to design the future now and to save as much weight as possible while also making the cars as efficient in terms of driving and use. The huge gull wing saves weight and still allows rear passenger entry on the i8 For example. The bench seats on the i3 allow occupants to slide easily from one side to the other the exit the vehicle safely (no need to enter traffic) when in the city. Lots of ideas in both cars.
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      02-11-2012, 02:37 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
I agree that hydrogen is where money should be invested. I disagree that electric vehicles/hybrid electric is the best stop-gap solution. I also worry that the MASSIVE investment that companies are making in electric, coupled with rebates/incentives/tax breaks, could actually undermine development of hydrogen vehicles.
What would you say is the best stop gap? The infrastructure is the big issue. BMW for one has the tech for hydrogen combustion and storage and has been working of fuel cells (recently signed an agreement with GM as well on FCs).

The problem with hydrogen is making it effectively, storing it and dispensing it and it will be some time before that happens. Look at the E85 roll out (not a supporter of that at all) that took ages with subsidies and really only needed new pumping equipment. Hydrogen is going to require massive capital, newly designed pumping stations- storage that is secure and a lot of marketing to promote it is safe rather than Hindenburg (paint was the bigger cause there).
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      02-11-2012, 04:04 PM   #127
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Quote:
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What would you say is the best stop gap? The infrastructure is the big issue. BMW for one has the tech for hydrogen combustion and storage and has been working of fuel cells (recently signed an agreement with GM as well on FCs).

The problem with hydrogen is making it effectively, storing it and dispensing it and it will be some time before that happens. Look at the E85 roll out (not a supporter of that at all) that took ages with subsidies and really only needed new pumping equipment. Hydrogen is going to require massive capital, newly designed pumping stations- storage that is secure and a lot of marketing to promote it is safe rather than Hindenburg (paint was the bigger cause there).
I was aware actually that BMW has been investing a lot of time in hydrogen storage. From what I understand, there are still challenges to overcome though...

It will never happen now of course because the wheels are in motion, but since you asked. I would have dropped the barriers to the import of Brazilian (and other) E85. Pushed that in flex vehicles. E85 being sold at "real" prices with proper advertising would be popular IMO. Plus, most of the companies already have the tech since they are so popular in other countries. I think I see a flex vehicle here once a week - it's a joke. The problem with the E85 roll out in this country is that it was done without the use of cheaper imported E85, and with a clusterfuck of governmental screw ups.

Electric is a joke in terms of range and, to a large extent, it is marketed as "ok because you are saving the environment". This of course is also a joke if you know where a lot of the power comes from in this country. I'm all for electric vehicles with reasonable ranges powered by clean energy. Can you show me where to find one? : )

EDIT - and BTW I do think electric cars can make sense today as "city cars", but I still reject the notion that they are automatically "green".
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      02-13-2012, 07:09 PM   #128
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I love this car. I just wish BMW would have slapped a v10 in it and called it a day.
+1

I finally got around to seeing MI4 this weekend, BMW must have spent a mint in all the destroyed cars. I cried like a baby when I saw what Tom did to that poor M6.

I can not wrap my head around anything electric that ain't a golf cart. It's just way to "Woody Allen" for me.

Happy Motoring.
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      02-13-2012, 07:44 PM   #129
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      02-13-2012, 08:30 PM   #130
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Please have a twin V8 at least?

Looks amazing and I don't mind a hybrid but I'd love for this to be an R8 killer. Looks fantastic, glad they kept the flying buttresses (so far) and hope it has performance to match. I've read it's supposed to have M3 (ish) performance. That's good, but I hope it will have even more.
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      02-13-2012, 09:04 PM   #131
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I wish they would stop watering down the original concept for production. The original had the proportions that no one could touch.
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      02-13-2012, 09:49 PM   #132
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With 0-60 being 4.8 and BMW usually being super conservative on their 0-60's, this car should be pretty quick. It looks like the 3cyl gas engine is just being used as a compressor. I wonder if its all electric all wheel drive? If it is then its similar to the same tech as the Chevy volt. This tech always trickles down to the lower series vehicles. This is gonna be epic.!!!!
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