[dimmy]

This may be a silly question, but I have not been able to find an answer and nobody at BMW could help me either. I recently test drove the new Tesla 2024 Model 3 Performance and love how you can just floor it from a stop light and have instant, rollercoaster like torque and whiplash. To get the same thing in the I4 M50 you need LC. Why? It’s an EV. I thought the whole point was to have instant torque at your disposal, so why lock the full power and 0 - 60 behind a program? Tesla doesn’t require this. You literally just floor it. I get it if they’re trying to still maintain the feel of a traditional BMW car, but at least make it optional.

I test drove the 2024 i4 M50 today and am very interested in the new 2025 refresh, but this one simple quirk is holding me back - as silly as that sounds. From a roll if you floor it it’s still fast as hell. I didn’t actually get a chance to floor it from a stop w/o LC, but my guess is it would be something closer to 4s 0 - 60. A bigger concern though is if it has any of that initial lag or if it just take off instantly with zero delay. Can anyone confirm this?

[techwhiz1]

As someone that has a M50.woth 20" wheels and I have only used it once; you don't need it.

With out LC you get instant takeoff with no lag. LC let's you energize the motors prior to launching.

The M50 is conservatively rated at 3.7 but in real world testing closer to 3.2.

But the real question is how often are drag racing. The M50 has better road holding than the TM3.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone to buy an M50 over a TM3. If you are still debating after looking at the fit and finish of an M50, interior quality, etc.; I can't help you.

[jpuffmasterpuffpuffpuff69]

I haven't used launch control at all. I just take the foot off the brake and then stomp the accelerator. It's plenty fast. Also with the 20" wheels, and I need new tires as I've corded them at 7k miles.

[Otto Bon Jovi]

I did some Dragy runs with my 2024 M50 loaner with 19 inch wheels. Two runs each.

Comfort mode DSC ON- NO brake stand (just pin the accelerator from a stop) 3.97 / 3.95

Sport Boost NO LC - DSC ON -NO Brake Stand. 3.53 / 3.57

Sport Boost with LC used 3.52 / 3.55

Based on my somewhat non-scientific testing it looks to me virtually no discernible difference between using LC or just driving the car in Sport Boost and pinning the accelerator from a stop.

[dimmy]

Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019

I did some Dragy runs with my 2024 M50 loaner with 19 inch wheels. Two runs each.

Comfort mode DSC ON- NO brake stand (just pin the accelerator from a stop) 3.97 / 3.95

Sport Boost NO LC - DSC ON -NO Brake Stand. 3.53 / 3.57

Sport Boost with LC used 3.52 / 3.55

Based on my somewhat non-scientific testing it looks to me virtually no discernible difference between using LC or just driving the car in Sport Boost and pinning the accelerator from a stop.

Nice, that’s good to know. Did you happen to catch what mileage your loaner was at?

I test drove the same iM50 again yesterday and noticed two distinct things each time I’d mash the medal (especially from a stop):

1.) Initial wheel spin in the back, more noticeable in sport boost mode
2.) Fishtailing / wiggle. This happens a bit even when already driving a good 30-40mph if I flooded it.

The car was brand new at 67 miles. I wonder if both of these were due to less traction on the wheels? Based on my research it does appear to be more rear wheel biased, although I think all BMWs are? I might be wrong.

I actually had to look again if it was indeed xDrive as the launches behaved more like my 2021 M3 Comp (which was RWD). I was expecting it to be more similar to my 22 M3 Comp xDrive. First one was totaled by a driver that cut me off which is why I got the 22 right after.

[Otto Bon Jovi]

Originally Posted by dimmy

Nice, that’s good to know. Did you happen to catch what mileage your loaner was at?

I test drove the same iM50 again yesterday and noticed two distinct things each time I’d mash the medal (especially from a stop):

1.) Initial wheel spin in the back, more noticeable in sport boost mode
2.) Fishtailing / wiggle. This happens a bit even when already driving a good 30-40mph if I flooded it.

The car was brand new at 67 miles. I wonder if both of these were due to less traction on the wheels? Based on my research it does appear to be more rear wheel biased, although I think all BMWs are? I might be wrong.

I actually had to look again if it was indeed xDrive as the launches behaved more like my 2021 M3 Comp (which was RWD). I was expecting it to be more similar to my 22 M3 Comp xDrive. First one was totaled by a driver that cut me off which is why I got the 22 right after.

3,600 miles. Tire pressure was low by about 6 lbs front and rear. I too notice the "torque steer" in that speed range under hard acceleration from a stop, similar to what you can experience in a FWD vehicle under hard acceleration. It isn't bad and easily controlled.

As for the xDrive, I don't know much about it other than I've heard it's biased to the rear wheels. Not sure if that is true or not.

[dimmy]

Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019

3,600 miles. Tire pressure was low by about 6 lbs front and rear. I too notice the "torque steer" in that speed range under hard acceleration from a stop, similar to what you can experience in a FWD vehicle under hard acceleration. It isn't bad and easily controlled.

As for the xDrive, I don't know much about it other than I've heard it's biased to the rear wheels. Not sure if that is true or not.

Got it. Weird how I don’t get even a smidge of that in the new Model 3 Performance. Lighter car (4000 vs 5000 lbs) or maybe the i4 M50 has a lower center of gravity. This is a tough one and I never thought I’d even consider a Tesla, but damn these things are fun and noticeably faster than the M50. I test drove both back and forth. It really is quite the difference and even the girlfriend noticed. The new performance model handles nicely enough too.

Interior and exterior looks wise it’s not even close, especially with the 2025 i4 refresh. Tesla has the better supercharger network by far though. I looked at what was available to do a Phoenix to San Diego trip and back and it’s downright embarrassing for the non Tesla variety. I’m talking like one or two Electrify America stations with 4 chargers each, and reports of some of them not working or getting half the charge output. I know EVs are supposed to move over to the Tesla chargers starting next year but who knows how long that will take.

Sucks that outside from a newer and flashier iDrive there’s no new tech whatsoever too. No cameras on turn signals, no beeps when traffic lights turn green, janky auto park that never triggers in a parking lot (which you need to have activated in the first place). Not that I really use it, but still, it works flawlessly in the Tesla every time from what I’ve tried and is always available. The UI is very intuitive and just works.

The ride quality is definitely smoother though, the new interior is downright sexy especially with that flat bottom steering wheel, the new vents, the ambient light strip in the center, and I kinda dig the new headlights and taillights. I’d get it in Brooklyn gray with the red interior. It would stand out way more among a sea of Teslas.

I’m just having a hard time deciding between the more fun drive, better tech, and the supercharger network, or the nicer car with the nicer materials, smoother ride quality, and uniqueness.

[techwhiz1]

Not sure how you figure a TM3 has better twch. It doesn't.

Let me know when a TM3 has HUD, 360 cameras, a radar based adaptive cruose, truly hands off in traffic (no nanny telling you put your hands on the wheel), Android Auto, CarPlay, etc.?

As far as.parking mine doesn't fail and absolutely in tests, the Tesla doesn't rate high in Auto Park. Actually for ADAS Tesla comes in after MBZ, BMW, and others around 7th.

[dimmy]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Not sure how you figure a TM3 has better twch. It doesn't.

Let me know when a TM3 has HUD, 360 cameras, a radar based adaptive cruose, truly hands off in traffic (no nanny telling you put your hands on the wheel), Android Auto, CarPlay, etc.?

As far as.parking mine doesn't fail and absolutely in tests, the Tesla doesn't rate high in Auto Park. Actually for ADAS Tesla comes in after MBZ, BMW, and others around 7th.

Ok, that’s on me. Totally forgot about the HUD, 360 cameras (although you can see an outline of the car and everything around you with a heat map, including curb lines and all, so it sort of functions as a top down camera).

Not sure about the radar based adaptive cruise. I’m only familiar with the Drivers Assistance Pro package on my 22 M3 and that absolutely requires me to keep my hands on the steering wheel (at least on highways). Tesla FSD doesn’t, and actually fully drives you to your destination- I’ve tried to multiple times. It even auto lane changes - you don’t have to use the turn signal to initiate an auto lane change. It can even do full u-turns, etc. Having a destination in your gps and then clicking one button to have the car take over and fully drive you there the rest of the way was novel.

I think the new 24s in particular have the newer FSD updates, etc because everything I’ve tried worked flawlessly. I had it auto park in numerous spots (regular, parallel, etc), even with cars around it (I would purposefully put it in an awkward spot) and it adjusted as needed.

I hope this doesn’t come across like I’m Tesla biased or anti bmw. Quite the contrary; I’ve exclusively driven BMWs for the past ten years. This isn’t an easy decision either way. I’ve driven the old Model 3 (had it as a rental vehicle) and hated it. The new one is much improved. The new i4 M50 is also the nicer, sexier car.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by dimmy

Ok, that’s on me. Totally forgot about the HUD, 360 cameras (although you can see an outline of the car and everything around you with a heat map, including curb lines and all, so it sort of functions as a top down camera).

Not sure about the radar based adaptive cruise. I’m only familiar with the Drivers Assistance Pro package on my 22 M3 and that absolutely requires me to keep my hands on the steering wheel (at least on highways). Tesla FSD doesn’t, and actually fully drives you to your destination- I’ve tried to multiple times. It even auto lane changes - you don’t have to use the turn signal to initiate an auto lane change. It can even do full u-turns, etc. Having a destination in your gps and then clicking one button to have the car take over and fully drive you there the rest of the way was novel.

I think the new 24s in particular have the newer FSD updates, etc because everything I’ve tried worked flawlessly. I had it auto park in numerous spots (regular, parallel, etc), even with cars around it (I would purposefully put it in an awkward spot) and it adjusted as needed.

I hope this doesn’t come across like I’m Tesla biased or anti bmw. Quite the contrary; I’ve exclusively driven BMWs for the past ten years. This isn’t an easy decision either way. I’ve driven the old Model 3 (had it as a rental vehicle) and hated it. The new one is much improved. The new i4 M50 is also the nicer, sexier car.

BMW traffic jam assist is no hands at up to 40mph.

Tesla is not hands free at any speed
Auto Pilot and Full Self Driving are L2 ADAS and have no redundancy in sensor.

Tesla doesn't monitor hands on wheel correctly and rely on rudimentary means for drives engagement.

BMW and others use capacitance touch steering wheels.

Tesla IS NOT HANDS FREE!
https://www.tesla.com/support/autopi...tive%20driver.

From that website.

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (Supervised) are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment. While these features are designed to become more capable over time, the currently enabled features do not make the vehicle autonomous.

[Otto Bon Jovi]

Originally Posted by dimmy

Got it. Weird how I don’t get even a smidge of that in the new Model 3 Performance. Lighter car (4000 vs 5000 lbs) or maybe the i4 M50 has a lower center of gravity. This is a tough one and I never thought I’d even consider a Tesla, but damn these things are fun and noticeably faster than the M50. I test drove both back and forth. It really is quite the difference and even the girlfriend noticed. The new performance model handles nicely enough too.

Interior and exterior looks wise it’s not even close, especially with the 2025 i4 refresh. Tesla has the better supercharger network by far though. I looked at what was available to do a Phoenix to San Diego trip and back and it’s downright embarrassing for the non Tesla variety. I’m talking like one or two Electrify America stations with 4 chargers each, and reports of some of them not working or getting half the charge output. I know EVs are supposed to move over to the Tesla chargers starting next year but who knows how long that will take.

Sucks that outside from a newer and flashier iDrive there’s no new tech whatsoever too. No cameras on turn signals, no beeps when traffic lights turn green, janky auto park that never triggers in a parking lot (which you need to have activated in the first place). Not that I really use it, but still, it works flawlessly in the Tesla every time from what I’ve tried and is always available. The UI is very intuitive and just works.

The ride quality is definitely smoother though, the new interior is downright sexy especially with that flat bottom steering wheel, the new [...]

I've never seriously considered an EV up until we drove this M50 loaner. It was always going to be a hybrid. She works from home and flies to all of her work destinations and I'm pretty much retired. If we do extended road trips we rent a car because the company she works for lets us rent on their contract for dirt cheap, way cheaper than we could ever drive our own for when considering wear and tear and depreciation ( example, we rented a brand new Grand Cherokee Hybrid this past summer for 10 days, put 2,600 miles on it and paid $640 all fees included).

So it turns out an EV is a really good choice for us and this M50 has it all. Performance, comfort, tech, and looks really nice with BMW quality. Also got a killer deal with the rebates and discounts.

As for Tesla, I vowed years ago to never buy one and I still feel that way. But that's just me.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019

So it turns out an EV is a really good choice for us and this M50 has it all. Performance, comfort, tech, and looks really nice with BMW quality. Also got a killer deal with the rebates and discounts.

As for Tesla, I vowed years ago to never buy one and I still feel that way. But that's just me.

I placed my order for a M50 when they were first announced in 2021.

Once they had demo cars I drove it back to back with an M3. I was sold, but really sold after the test drove. All the performance of an M3 and no maintenance.

I also would never buy a Tesla.
I don't need to go into why, but Musk himself for starters.

Anyway, if I did t have an i4 M50, it would be an i5 M60.

I do have an M2 on order to add to the i4.

[montr]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

BMW traffic jam assist is no hands at up to 40mph.

Tesla is not hands free at any speed
Auto Pilot and Full Self Driving are L2 ADAS and have no redundancy in sensor.

Tesla doesn't monitor hands on wheel correctly and rely on rudimentary means for drives engagement.

BMW and others use capacitance touch steering wheels.

Tesla IS NOT HANDS FREE!
https://www.tesla.com/support/autopi...tive%20driver.

From that website.

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (Supervised) are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment. While these features are designed to become more capable over time, the currently enabled features do not make the vehicle autonomous.

Tesla latest FSD release, v12 (2024.32.10), is truly hand free driving. You do no have to touch the steering at all but you have to look forward most of the time. It use the camera above the rear view mirror to track your eyes. It works when using sunglass and also works in the dark.

I drove hundreds of miles last weekend without touching the steering wheel!
The screenshot below for the previous version. The current version 2024.32.10 adds other feature like the "Actually Smart Summon" which you can have your car come to you by using the Tesla app

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by montr

Tesla latest FSD release, v12 (2024.32.10), is truly hand free driving. You do no have to touch the steering at all but you have to look forward most of the time. It use the camera above the rear view mirror to track your eyes. It works when using sunglass and also works in the dark.

I drove hundreds of miles last weekend without touching the steering wheel!
The screenshot below for the previous version. The current version 2024.32.10 adds other feature like the "Actually Smart Summon" which you can have your car come to you by using the Tesla app

Tesla plays fast and loose with the law.
Tesla is not certified hands free because there is absolutely, positively no redundancy in the camera array.

I don't care what it will LET you do.
It monitors your attention but there is no reliable way to monitor hands on wheel in a Tesla. There is no capacitive sensor.

Two companies are certified for selling L3 cars and that is BMW and MBZ.

But you keep trusting FSD without your hands and I'll read about you on the news. Also read all the warnings on the page below about it not always stopping, etc.


https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/m...0road%20users.

I will quote from the FSD - Supervised page
Driver Attentiveness
Like other Autopilot features, Full Self-Driving (Supervised) requires driver attentiveness. Your hands must be on the steering wheel at all times while Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged, and you must monitor your surroundings, the road, and other road users.

[montr]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Tesla plays fast and loose with the law.
Tesla is not certified hands free because there is absolutely, positively no redundancy in the camera array.

I don't care what it will LET you do.
It monitors your attention but there is no reliable way to monitor hands on wheel in a Tesla. There is no capacitive sensor.

Two companies are certified for selling L3 cars and that is BMW and MBZ.

But you keep trusting FSD without your hands and I'll read about you on the news. Also read all the warnings on the page below about it not always stopping, etc.


https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/m...0road%20users.

I will quote from the FSD - Supervised page
Driver Attentiveness
Like other Autopilot features, Full Self-Driving (Supervised) requires driver attentiveness. Your hands must be on the steering wheel at all times while Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged, and you must monitor your surroundings, the road, and other road users.

The Tesla manual that is in the link is obsolete. The cover say it is for Software version: 2024.32.3, released in March 2024. The hands free was released in May 2024. The latest version was released this month, October 2024. To know the current capabilities of FSD you have to consult the Release Notes on the App or in the car screen. The most up to date user manual is available on the screen of the car.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by montr

The Tesla manual that is in the link is obsolete. The cover say it is for Software version: 2024.32.3, released in March 2024. The hands free was released in May 2024. The latest version was released this month, October 2024. To know the current capabilities of FSD you have to consult the Release Notes on the App or in the car screen. The most up to date user manual is available on the screen of the car.

No matter the software release, show me the notes where it says FSD is "hands free".

[montr]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

No matter the software release, show me the notes where it says FSD is "hands free".

In that release, it is mentioned that FSD now relies primarily on the inside the cabin camera instead of the torque steer on the steering. We do not need to hold the steering wheel anymore for having the FSD active.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by montr

In that release, it is mentioned that FSD now relies primarily on the inside the cabin camera instead of the torque steer on the steering. We do not need to hold the steering wheel anymore for having the FSD active.

Like I said Tesla says fast and loose with their claims of FSD.

As someone that understands ISO26262 and ASIL, a Tesla is never "safe" if your hands are not on the wheel.

There is no redundancy in the camera/vision system.

I wouldn't trust it with my life.

[montr]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Like I said Tesla says fast and loose with their claims of FSD.

As someone that understands ISO26262 and ASIL, a Tesla is never "safe" if your hands are not on the wheel.

There is no redundancy in the camera/vision system.

I wouldn't trust it with my life.

My car has also the radar

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by montr

My car has also the radar

Radar is front facing only.
Not on the sides. BMW uses 5 radar sensors.

[Haywood]

https://electrek.co/2024/09/12/tesla...-happens-next/

https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/...ifornia_tesla/

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/e...er-236318.html

Tesla = fail when it comes to L3 capabilities. But, keep believing in the hype. Besides the charging network, there is no reason to buy a Tesla over a BMW. But, hey if you want to be in a cult and believe all the bullshit that Musk feeds you, then go right ahead.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Haywood

https://electrek.co/2024/09/12/teslas-full-self-driving-v12-5-rollout-on-hw3-failed-what-happens-next/

https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/09/mercedes_california_tesla/

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/elon-musk-suggests-it-s-the-end-of-the-road-for-the-hardware-3-autopilot-computer-236318.html

Tesla = fail when it comes to L3 capabilities. But, keep believing in the hype. Besides the charging network, there is no reason to buy a Tesla over a BMW. But, hey if you want to be in a cult and believe all the bullshit that Musk feeds you, then go right ahead.

Also BMW received regulatory approval in EU for thor L2/L3 system called Personal Pilot.

Tesla over promises and under delivers. They also don't submit themselves for regulatory approval for their ADAS system which is also an epic fail.

Elon the Moron thinks he knows more than engineers trained in automotive safety and assisted drive systems. Right....