[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by thielepr

It seems that you’re starting from the point of a non believer thinking this is just a merkrting scheme.

I can tell you first hand it’s not. Every corvette model, civic Type R, BMW M, Ford Mustang GTD, Hyundai N, AMG and so on with Michelin spec tires are tailor to the specific model. The Michelin process is unique and only 3 facilities of all Michelin can do it. The hours of engineering dedication from both sides in significant. I can walk around my site and tell what tires are what spec from a distance even when over 70% of our Production are Pilot 4S

I couldn’t find a BMW video but this Porsche one explain the process in detail.

PCA spec tires

I said this above, but how can a manufacturer work with 2 (or more) tire manufacturers on star spec tires, but end up being so different?

I'm not doubting in any way that lots of money and research goes into the star spec development. However, it's confusing that they land on multiple star specs with multiple vendors without any explanation to the customer other than the star spec is designed specifically for that exact car.

[thielepr]

I can’t speak for other brands but I would expect they start with the retail version and BMW tell them what they are looking for and then they would come back with a tire that meet the BMW requirements.

[Vindicator3]

I appreciate your insider POV, but a lot of the discussion so far seems to focus on advantages to track performance in dry conditions using summer tires.

Would you attribute the same advantages to all-season star tires (vs all-season non-star tires) for those looking for reasonable performance balanced with ride comfort, wet/snow traction, fuel economy, and tread life? Or are the model-specific engineering advantages of star tires all geared to track performance?

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by Vindicator3

I appreciate your insider POV, but a lot of the discussion so far seems to focus on advantages to track performance in dry conditions using summer tires.

Would you attribute the same advantages to all-season star tires (vs all-season non-star tires) for those looking for reasonable performance balanced with ride comfort, wet/snow traction, fuel economy, and tread life? Or are the model-specific engineering advantages of star tires all geared to track performance?

I would offer BMW Start tires are geared to offer the best tire experience with the least amount of risk of issues arising from tire differences/quality variation.

As I may have mentioned I put 467,000 miles on my Boxster and 996 Turbo. All I used were Porsche Nx tires ("N0", "N1", and so on.)

At 20K miles rear tire life -- with a proper alignment and me behaving myself -- and 40K mile front tire life I went through a lot of tires. All marked with the 'N' (N0, N1, N2...) and used Pirelli and Michelin tires on the Boxster and Continental and Bridgestone tires on the 996 and set after set the tires had no surprises. As per Porsche I didn't mix N numbers. Nor did I mix tire brands. Tire life, grip, road manners, you name it, were consistent drive after drive tire set after tire set.

This over 16 years in the Boxster and 9 years in the Turbo.

Based on my experience with my Porsche cars I'm going to stick with BMW Star tires. I probably won't fit all season tires on my M8 -- I have the luxury of in bad weather leaving the M8 in its garage and driving another vehicle (Honda Ridgeline at the moment) -- but when the time comes to replace the tires on the M8 I'll stick with the proper summer/high performance tires.

[pbonsalb]

Interestingly, BMW specified either Pirelli or Michelin for the F90 M5, but at its performance center driving schools, it runs Continental. Non star spec can’t be that bad if BMW is using them on the track.

I run Continental EC Sport 02 on my 2018 M5, in place of the Michelin PS4 star spec. Both tires are good. Can’t tell much difference. The Continental do feel more comfortable and that probably means they aren’t quite as stiff. Have never tracked so I have no lap times to compare. What percentage of BMW owners take their cars to the track? 1%?

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Interestingly, BMW specified either Pirelli or Michelin for the F90 M5, but at its performance center driving schools, it runs Continental. Non star spec can’t be that bad if BMW is using them on the track.

I run Continental EC Sport 02 on my 2018 M5, in place of the Michelin PS4 star spec. Both tires are good. Can’t tell much difference. The Continental do feel more comfortable and that probably means they aren’t quite as stiff. Have never tracked so I have no lap times to compare. What percentage of BMW owners take their cars to the track? 1%?

Yep.

Michelin isn't currently top of the pack in terms of summer or performance tires. This is one of the limiting ideas of "star spec". It's a factory tire recommendation. Of course they put tons of R&D hours into making sure it's perfect for the car they sell it on... To think otherwise would be absurd

I do like Mich tires, have them on 2/3 of my cars. I buy sizes that fit my custom setups and firmly believe that independent testing is the key to success. I also like certain tires from kook, pirelli, conti, yoko, Bridgestone etc.

It's all a balancing act for your local driving environmental conditions and purported use.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by thielepr

I can tell you first hand it’s not. Every corvette model, civic Type R, BMW M, Ford Mustang GTD, Hyundai N, AMG and so on with Michelin spec tires are tailor to the specific model. The Michelin process is unique and only 3 facilities of all Michelin can do it. The hours of engineering dedication from both sides in significant.

So with this logic, to get the best performance out of my 2011 Z06/Z07, I should only use the Michelin tires that were designed for that car 15 years ago?

[thielepr]

If you’re only street driving the vette, Depending on your use, yes. That would be one of the best options for you.

While some do, not all tires stay the same once they have been release. The pilot 4S that come in any corvette C8 today is a better tire than the one that came out when the car was released.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by thielepr

If you’re only street driving the vette, Depending on your use, yes. That would be one of the best options for you.

While some do, not all tires stay the same once they have been release. The pilot 4S that come in any corvette C8 today is a better tire than the one that came out when the car was released.

You realize your statments contradict one another. On one hand you state the Michelins that are oe on 2025/2026 now Corvettes are better than the oe Michelins from just 5 years ago, but to get the best performance from my 2011 Corvette I should go with tires that were developed over 15 years ago. According to tire manufacturers their technology, compounds, performance, etc., are improving constantly. So which is it?

My Z06 came o.e. with 285/30/19 & 335/25/20 Michelin PS2. Here's some info I found comparing the PS2 with the Pilot Super Sport:

Michelin's in-house testing, performed at the Michelin Technology Center, helped identify six key areas in which the Michelin Pilot Super Sport outperforms its predecessor, the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2:

Road-holding on dry surfaces: Tests showed a 1.5-second gain on a 2,700-meter closed-circuit track.

Braking on dry surfaces: When decelerating from 100 km/h to a full stop, braking distance was shortened by 1.5 meters.

Road-holding on wet surfaces: Time was reduced by 2.5 seconds on a 4,100-meter closed-circuit track.

Braking on wet roads: When decelerating from 80 to 10 km/h, braking distance was shortened by 3 meters.

Total mileage on the track: 50% more laps.

Total mileage on the road: 10% greater distance.

So I should probably stick with the PS2 & it's overall worse performance. Oh wait, the PS2 isn't even available for my Corvette anymore. I should probably put it up on blocks because no tire can offer the same, or better, performance as a tire with that special o.e. marking on it.

That's how unimportant the marking is.

[thielepr]

Look, it seems you’re not open to any points other than yours. For you it’s all marketing. That’s ok. The reality is different as I see it everyday first hand.

In fact, it’s the tailored corvette tires that saved my Michelin location as the process is way more expensive than a regular tire factory site.

The argument of this post was if the spec tires for BMW were really different or it was just a marketing scheme. That was answered. It’s not a marketing scheme and there is a lot of effort put into this.

If you still want to buy the non spec Michelins you are going to still obtain a great quality in comfort, rain, noise and performance.

Enjoy your day!

[thielepr]

Originally Posted by Vindicator3

I appreciate your insider POV, but a lot of the discussion so far seems to focus on advantages to track performance in dry conditions using summer tires.

Would you attribute the same advantages to all-season star tires (vs all-season non-star tires) for those looking for reasonable performance balanced with ride comfort, wet/snow traction, fuel economy, and tread life? Or are the model-specific engineering advantages of star tires all geared to track performance?

Good question. I’m not sure if we do all season start spec for BMW’s but yes, if the Michelin spec tire is an all season it would have been designed for that specific application.

The corvette is a good example. The base corvette comes with Pilot 4S all season and the E-Ray also comes with the 4S all season. The recipe for both are different.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Interestingly, BMW specified either Pirelli or Michelin for the F90 M5, but at its performance center driving schools, it runs Continental. Non star spec can’t be that bad if BMW is using them on the track.

None of the above are "that bad". It's just a fractional difference between "better" and "best" vs. "custom best".

BMW using Conti's a PDS is a financial decision, just like the one all of us are making when buying tires. BMW PDS is not a racing school, so consistency in performance on Conti ECF's is a good match. If it was a lap-setting racing school many other tires would have been better.

Here is a bit of an additional insight into the relative choices between ECS-2 and ECF vs. Hoosiers:

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I run Continental EC Sport 02 on my 2018 M5, in place of the Michelin PS4 star spec. Both tires are good. Can’t tell much difference. The Continental do feel more comfortable and that probably means they aren’t quite as stiff.

Agreed.
I switched from PS4 to ECS-2 for street summer tire (when Conti was running 4 tires for price of 3 promo), and ECS-2 side walls are definitely softer. But the turn-in steering response is marginally sharper.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

What percentage of BMW owners take their cars to the track? 1%?

Less than that.
As a reference, global racing tire market was valued at $11.36 billion in 2024, as is shrinking. Global tire market overall is around USD 264.68 billion in 2024.
Given that R-tires get used up way faster than street tires by both amateur and professional racing teams (10:1 overall?), the customer base utilizing R-tires is a fraction of 1% of total drivers.

a

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by thielepr

Look, it seems you’re not open to any points other than yours. For you it’s all marketing. That’s ok. The reality is different as I see it everyday first hand.

In fact, it’s the tailored corvette tires that saved my Michelin location as the process is way more expensive than a regular tire factory site.

The argument of this post was if the spec tires for BMW were really different or it was just a marketing scheme. That was answered. It’s not a marketing scheme and there is a lot of effort put into this.

If you still want to buy the non spec Michelins you are going to still obtain a great quality in comfort, rain, noise and performance.

Enjoy your day!

I'm definitely open to other points - that are supported. I work with data & research every day. I provided testing data from Michelin to support my opinion. You haven't provided any data to support yours.

Re: BMW star tires, no that wasn't answered. A claim of "3 seconds faster around a medium-sized track on the g8x cars" was thrown out with no supporting data. That seems like something that could easily be supported without revealing any "secrets" of the star tires.

The other point I made is the "spec" tires for one of my cars are no longer made, so how do I buy "spec" tires?

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

I'm definitely open to other points - that are supported. I work with data & research every day. I provided testing data from Michelin to support my opinion. You haven't provided any data to support yours.

Re: BMW star tires, no that wasn't answered. A claim of "3 seconds faster around a medium-sized track on the g8x cars" was thrown out with no supporting data. That seems like something that could easily be supported without revealing any "secrets" of the star tires.

The other point I made is the "spec" tires for one of my cars are no longer made, so how do I buy "spec" tires?

Just stop. He's going to go around in circles forever.

The spec tires are different from generics, but in small mostly intangible ways they make them a "custom fit" for the car they're matched to. It really doesn't matter, and it 100% doesn't matter once you modify even one element of the suspension or wheel setup. And you're right. New tires are better than old tires.

Around in circles.

[Hit_Apex]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Just stop. He's going to go around in circles forever.

The spec tires are different from generics, but in small mostly intangible ways they make them a "custom fit" for the car they're matched to. It really doesn't matter, and it 100% doesn't matter once you modify even one element of the suspension or wheel setup. And you're right. New tires are better than old tires.

Around in circles.

Yup

[m2ss]

Ever since I got non star rated tires my car is much slower, doesn't turn properly and stalls when slowing down.

Damn BMW...

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by m2ss

Ever since I got non star rated tires my car is much slower, doesn't turn properly and stalls when slowing down.

Damn BMW...

Mine turned FWD