[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

One of the things that frustrates me on this forum is that we can have objective comparative discussions of other cars like Lucid, Genesis, Porsche, Audi, etc. But the moment Tesla comes up, a handful of folks post information that ranges from outdated to preposterous. There are a some people on the forum who have had bad experiences, and I appreciate those perspectives. There are some who have or have had positive experiences. We should all appreciate those perspectives as well. Then there are some who have never had one and only regurgitate negatives (even if untrue) that align with their biases and struggle to accept truth from folks with first-hand experiences.

The fact that I never owned a Tesla does not make my comments any less true or relevant. I waste tons of my personal time looking stuff up, double checking what I can, watching YT videos about cars, chatting up friends/coworkers about their experiences, etc. In the same way that I do it for other brands, I do it with Tesla too. My opinions don't align with your beliefs and so you simply discard them whereas if I or anyone else does the same kind of research and criticizes Kia or Hyundai, you simply accept it; but I dare say that people experienced phantom drain recently and all of a sudden I am "parroting a narrative" because you think that problem was solved many years ago when even darylp310 pointed out that at best they drastically lowered the power consumption when off in the last year or so only.

The specific thing I am insisting on here is not something I read elsewhere, not something I remember anyone else stating before. I thought about it for a minute and using what I know about how EVs work was able to put 2 and 2 together and concluded that the seemingly unrelated issues that plagued Teslas in general were actually very logically related. Part of the issue originally was maybe that they were dropping the 12V battery way too low. But if they addressed that, it didn't fix the issues they had with prematurely wearing out the 12V batteries because that kept happening (maybe they lasted longer than before but still wore out way too fast). Those people who experienced phantom drain wasn't due to the HV pack simply self discharging, the power was lost recharging the 12V battery because of all the stuff that was powering when the cars were off. It is blatantly obvious (to me) that the power was being used that way, just like if you turned on sentry mode and had it use 5% of your HV pack's capacity each day; it was being cycled through the 12V battery. I then calculated how many cycles that would equate to and then looked up how many cycles car batteries were able to last for, cause I had no idea of their capacity or duty cycle ratings. I did this months ago and to me it was a simple, logical way of reasoning and it gave a very simple explanation for the battery problem when they were still using lead acid batteries and why their band-aid solution in 2021 of switching to lithium 12V batteries seemed to solve the problem, at least from the warranty replacement side of things, simply because they can handle many more cycles before going bad. If their recent update for "deep sleep" works as intended, that's good to hear.

When it comes to the iX, there is no issue. To the best of my knowledge, we have not heard of any recurring issues with them other than the error when trying to do the last couple of updates which seems like a bug and not an actual issue with the battery itself. So the lead acid battery on this car should last longer than on pretty much any other vehicle I've ever had and this is in part due to the car being extremely stingy with power when the car is off as we have all seen.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

The fact that I never owned a Tesla does not make my comments any less true or relevant... I am "parroting a narrative" because you think that problem was solved many years ago when even darylp310 pointed out that at best they drastically lowered the power consumption when off in the last year or so only.

I guess you overlooked another post above by someone who owned one said "Correct. Their charging algorithm in the early days was very poor. They improved it over time, due to the expense of replacing them under warranty."

The point is that there are multiple experiences and they do not align with your negative narrative.

I do not discard what you say because you have not owned a Tesla. I discard it when it just doesn't make sense. Knowing that you do not have first-hand experience and have an anti-Tesla worldview helps explain those posts.

Your whole "obvious to you" explanation assumes that the HV contactors switch on and off while in Sentry mode. Or switch on and off while phantom drain is occurring. Or that all cars experience phantom drain. Those presumptions may not be true or are not true.

I do not blindly accept Hyundai, Kia, or Genesis criticism, as you suggest. Many of those criticisms posted here are easily proven true and I agreed with them. For example, GV70 and GV60 range. But when someone said they are chintzy, I challenge that, because it is not true. When someone was critical of Porsche's lack of OPD, I agreed. That seems silly. If you told me you thought the interior of a Tesla was basic, I would agree. They are basic and one of the many reasons I prefer an iX. In the thread that branched to Tesla suspension handling, steering, and braking, you did stay away from unfounded criticism, but at the same time, you could not help a dig and then throwing in some conspiracy theory shade "but I mean given their tendency to blatantly lie about stuff, you never know." That one was just bizarre.

Your last paragraph is surprising to me, and suggests that you have not had a BMW before, though I think that you have. My BMWs and my friends' BMWs were horrible on 12 V batteries. I don't have any science on it, but I spent a lot of money on batteries in the past as did friends and family. That is why I do not share your optimism that "the lead acid battery on this car should last longer than on pretty much any other vehicle I've ever had." I hope it does, but I am not willing to assume it.

If you search the popular Tesla forums on 12 V battery life, and click into a few of the links, you will generally see a bimodal distribution of battery life comments. Those who seem to get a couple of years and those who get lots of years.

Oh, and calling the change to lithium ion batteries a "band-aid solution" displays a lack of understanding of the problems and battery types and why lead acid was such a poor choice in the first place. It was not a band-aid, it was a massive upgrade. Of all the things Tesla did differently in the early years, why nobody thought to lead with a lion battery in the first place is a bit of a head-scratcher.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I guess you overlooked another post above by someone who owned one said "Correct. Their charging algorithm in the early days was very poor. They improved it over time, due to the expense of replacing them under warranty."

I didn't overlook the post, people still had batteries wear out prematurely after that fix was applied up until they switched to lithium batteries. It may have made it better than before but didn't truly address the issue.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I do not discard what you say because you have not owned a Tesla. I discard it when it just doesn't make sense. Knowing that you do not have first-hand experience and have an anti-Tesla worldview helps explain those posts.

I am not actually anti Tesla. You may not think it but I want Tesla to be successful as the competition they bring is good for us. (not Elon himself, but the car company who should have fired him many years ago). But I am anti BS, anti lying, anti shitty quality, anti screwing over customers. The fact that all those apply to Tesla is on them, not on me.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Your whole "obvious to you" explanation assumes that the HV contactors switch on and off while in Sentry mode. Or switch on and off while phantom drain is occurring. Or that all cars experience phantom drain. Those presumptions may not be true or are not true.

"may not be true or are not true"... If you want to argue about this, it is a step in the right direction. I am pretty darn sure the HV system disconnects when the car shuts off. If you have anything that actually says the opposite, please share. But saying it may or may not be true is not a way of dismissing the argument I made here. It makes zero sense to me that the HV pack would stay connected when the car is off but if there is proof of this being the case, I'll accept it.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Your last paragraph is surprising to me, and suggests that you have not had a BMW before, though I think that you have. My BMWs and my friends BMWs were horrible on 12 V batteries. I don't have any science on it, but I spent a lot of money on batteries in the past as did friends and family. That is why I do not share your optimism that "the lead acid battery on this car should last longer than on pretty much any other vehicle I've ever had." I hope it does, but I am not willing to assume it.

I have had 4 modern BMWs (2013 3 series, 2016 X4, 2019 X5, 2023 iX) and my E30 (1989 3 series) that I've owned for about a decade now. I've also owned 2 Chevy's, 1 Chrysler, 3 Mazdas and a Pontiac. Have always parked all cars outside all year long. Batteries around here in our conditions last about 6 years if you treat them well, less if you let them go flat repeatedly. Given that the iX barely uses any power when off, and doesn't need to crank an engine when the car is frozen in the middle of winter, charges the battery whenever appropriate using the HV battery so it never gets to a lower than desired SoC, yeah I think it should last longer than any I've had before. Of course I will likely not keep the car long enough to see that benefit myself but who knows.

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Oh, and calling the change to lithium ion batteries a "band-aid solution" displays a lack of understanding of the problems and battery types and why lead acid was such a poor choice in the first place. It was not a band-aid, it was a massive upgrade. Of all the things Tesla did differently in the early years, why nobody thought to lead with a lion battery in the first place is a bit of a head scratcher.

It was a band aid solution in the sense that it did not address the actual issue they were trying to deal with. It was a workaround to make them last just long enough to not need replacing under warranty. Do you think Tesla didn't know that lithium 12V batteries existed before 2021? There are surely good reasons for sticking with lead acid for this application. The easiest is they are cheaper. There could be other reasons they stuck with lead acid for this application, but the only other real advantage lead acid has that I know about is cold temperature charging. If anyone can think of another reason, please chime in.

[NomoTesla]

Get a room, guys.

[javapro]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

Get a room, guys.

Guys? That's a sexist assumption

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

Get a room, guys.

Well I'm back from the hotel. We still don't agree on anything in this post.

But dinner was nice. Has some Trump steaks, (well done with ketchup of course) and washed it all down with some wine from the Trump Winery.

exxxviii was a true gentleman and a scholar.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

Well I'm back from the hotel. We still don't agree on anything in this post.

It was a fine meal. I enjoyed a thin crust vegan pizza with a warm glass of almond milk.

[darylp310]

This is the humor I love to see between two of my favorite posters on this forum!!

[NomoTesla]

Love the potatosquash lol