[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Interestingly, J3400 appears to be limited to 11.5kW over 240v but will support 80A delivery using a three phase circuit although it only uses one of the phases to do so. This is similar to how homes in the US take 240v and splits it into two 120v legs to feed our standards 120v 15A outlets.

I think J3400 supports 19.2 kW in the US on split phase. Tesla was charging at 80A on NACS for a long time but abandoned it with their latest generation of Model S/X cars.

[VersatenBMW]

Originally Posted by LeeInCT

I think the AC charging limiting factor is mainly the limit of the circuit/gauge of the wire. My impression is that Most of the house hold 220V circuit are limited to 50A... correct me if I am wrong. Of coure one can choose to install wires of much higher gauge, but it's rare and unnecessary for most of the scenarios. One (extreme) analogy is like installing a fallout shelter in one's basement...

My understanding is that if you have a 50 amp circuit breaker (which I have), the continuous load can only be 80 percent of this number or 40 amps. Car charging is continuous. So I keep my limit set at 32 amps. I plan to check with my electrician to see if the wire can handle 48 amps CONTINUOS and then I can replace the 50 amp breaker with a 60 amp breaker. 48 amps is derived from 80 % of a 60 amp breaker not a 50 amp breaker.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I think J3400 supports 19.2 kW in the US on split phase. Tesla was charging at 80A on NACS for a long time but abandoned it with their latest generation of Model S/X cars.

Only at 277v using one leg of a three phase connection and not on 240v so effectively 80A is DOA for US homes on J3400. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...rging_Standard

J3400 will only go to 11.5kW on split phase while J1772 will go to 19.2kW. Most people really don't need more than 48A but it seems like a step backwards.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by VersatenBMW

My understanding is that if you have a 50 amp circuit breaker (which I have), the continuous load can only be 80 percent of this number or 40 amps. Car charging is continuous. So I keep my limit set at 32 amps. I plan to check with my electrician to see if the wire can handle 48 amps CONTINUOS and then I can replace the 50 amp breaker with a 60 amp breaker. 48 amps is derived from 80 % of a 60 amp breaker not a 50 amp breaker.

A 50A circuit will support 40A delivered to your car. So you can do 9.6kW already. You don't need to limit your car to 32A.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Only at 277v using one leg of a three phase connection and not on 240v so effectively 80A is DOA for US homes on J3400. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...rging_Standard

J3400 will only go to 11.5kW on split phase while J1772 will go to 19.2kW. Most people really don't need more than 48A but it seems like a step backwards.

This quote from the Wiki link seems to say that the current NACS/J2400 can still support 80A. (Emphasis mine.) And, I am pretty sure that the "up to" clause applies independently to both the ampere and voltage limits.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

When AC power is used, the NACS system can deliver up to 80 amperes at 277 volts.

My point above is based on a good friend who had two Model Ss and a 2nd generation Tesla Wall Connector. (His mom also had an earlier Model S with an 80A wall connector.) His cars and wall connector definitely charge at 19.2 kW on his home's split phase 240V electrical.

Tesla dropped the 19.2 kW charger in the latest generation of Model S/X cars and the current generation wall connectors only support 11.5 kW charging. But, if they did not de-rate the connector, I presume that NACS/J3400 connector would continue to support 80A L2 charging.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I presume that NACS/J3400 connector would continue to support 80A L2 charging.

With the caveat of 277v which is not found on the vast majority of US homes. The car may support it but the J3400 standard does not. So presumably you could get a 15kW or 19kW J1772 EVSE and use an adapter to deliver >11kW power to the car but future J3400 EVSE will be limited to 11kW on split phase 240v. I don't see how that's a good thing in the long term.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

With the caveat of 277v which is not found on the vast majority of US homes. The car may support it but the J3400 standard does not. So presumably you could get a 15kW or 19kW J1772 EVSE and use an adapter to deliver >11kW power to the car but future J3400 EVSE will be limited to 11kW on split phase 240v. I don't see how that's a good thing in the long term.

No. The J3400 will support 80A. Click through to the citations referenced in the Wiki. Whomever wrote the wiki sentence did a poor job.

The maximum power rating for the Wall Connector is 20 kW or 80A at 250V AC single-phase power. Your vehicle can charge from 200V to 277V single-phase power.

and

Maximum output: 80A, 72A, 64A, 56A, 48A, 40A, 36A, 32A, 28A, 24A, 20A, 16A, 12A

and

Current Rating: The North American Charging Standard shall specify no maximum current rating. The maximum current rating of the inlet or connector shall be determined by the manufacturer, provided that the temperature limits defined in section 8 are maintained.

And as I said, Teslas have been charging at 19.2 kW in the united states on 240 V for about 10 years.

[VersatenBMW]

Originally Posted by Pictor

A 50A circuit will support 40A delivered to your car. So you can do 9.6kW already. You don't need to limit your car to 32A.

Except my car only has two options on charging rate -- 32 amps and 48 amps. so if I chose 48 amps it would pull that (unless how I figured out how to limit that in my Chargepoint home charger).

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

No. The J3400 will support 80A. Click through to the citations referenced in the Wiki. Whomever wrote the wiki sentence did a poor job.
andand

And as I said, Teslas have been charging at 19.2 kW in the united states on 240 V for about 10 years.

I'm not doubting the historic 80A L2 capability. My question is around the proposed J3400 standard. I guess I'll wait to see what comes out since I'm not going to pay SAE for the TIR.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

I'm not doubting the historic 80A L2 capability. My question is around the proposed J3400 standard. I guess I'll wait to see what comes out since I'm not going to pay SAE for the TIR.

Unless SAE changes it (their J3400 standards document is behind a paywall) the current NACS standard specifies no maximum current rating. So a mere 80A is a nothing burger for the connector.

This is significant, because the NACS/J3400 uses the same conductors for both AC and DC charging. Therefore, if the DC limit is well north of 500A, then 80A is a rounding error. By contrast, J1772/CCS use separate conductors, so the current limits for AC and DC charging would be different under those standards.

[darylp310]

Don't you guys think from a pure business perspective, does it make any sense for BMW to support the high speed AC charging option in North America? Since few US homes can support the 100A needed, isn't the addressable market really tiny? For the F-150 Lightning, 80A/19.2kw makes perfect sense because it'll often be parked at work shops and industrial locations which already have high amperage infrastructure. But it's so different here in N. America compared to UK,EU where homes often have three phase, so it's a more natural fit for residential use. Besides, it's a $1,300 option in the UK! I'd rather have air suspension!!

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by darylp310

Don't you guys think from a pure business perspective, does it make any sense for BMW to support the high speed AC charging option in North America? Since few US homes can support the 100A needed, isn't the addressable market really tiny? For the F-150 Lightning, 80A/19.2kw makes perfect sense because it'll often be parked at work shops and industrial locations which already have high amperage infrastructure. But it's so different here in N. America compared to UK,EU where homes often have three phase, so it's a more natural fit for residential use. Besides, it's a $1,300 option in the UK! I'd rather have air suspension!!

Nope, I think 19.2 kW charging in the US is dumb. All your points are spot on.

[Pictor]

I have a home built in 2007 which can easily support 19.2kW. I don't know why it's dumb. If you have a 200A service panel and don't have a hot tub, pool, or welder then chances are you can support a 100A circuit for a 80A EVSE.

[darylp310]

Look how much it costs to add!

[Pictor]

Porsche US charges $1680 for 19.2kW charging. People buy that option from Porsche but it's a Porsche and you could argue that they have an insane option list. But is that reason to not offer the option? IF Porsche offered 19.2kW on the Macan EV in the US market do you think BMW should offer it too?

Sure some people may opt to not get the 19.2kW charging if it was offered in the US. Many people didn't get the FLIR night vision which I had on my past BMWs but it was an amazing option that saved me from hitting a deer. I would gladly pay for night vision again if BMW brought it back. Just like I would probably pay for 19.2kW but I acknowledge many people won't.

Now, where's that BMW Individual option sheet with the BMW Individual Pure Metal Silver paint that is a $10,300 option.

[darylp310]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Porsche US charges $1680 for 19.2kW charging. People buy that option from Porsche but it's a Porsche and you could argue that they have an insane option list. But is that reason to not offer the option? IF Porsche offered 19.2kW on the Macan EV in the US market do you think BMW should offer it too?

Sure some people may opt to not get the 19.2kW charging if it was offered in the US. Many people didn't get the FLIR night vision which I had on my past BMWs but it was an amazing option that saved me from hitting a deer. I would gladly pay for night vision again if BMW brought it back. Just like I would probably pay for 19.2kW but I acknowledge many people won't.

Now, where's that BMW Individual option sheet with the BMW Individual Pure Metal Silver paint that is a $10,300 option.

Hahahah. Good point. People think I'm nuts, but I would pay $3-4K for Highway Assistant!

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

I have a home built in 2007 which can easily support 19.2kW. I don't know why it's dumb. If you have a 200A service panel and don't have a hot tub, pool, or welder then chances are you can support a 100A circuit for a 80A EVSE.

If your home has a 200A service panel and an electrician said you could do a 100A charging circuit, that is probably rare. Most homes need a 400A service for that.

You probably could not run a double oven, dryer, HVAC, and some lights concurrently with a 80A charge. But if you were judicious and set your 100A charger to only run after bedtime, you might be able to pull it off.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

If your home has a 200A and an electrician said you could do a 100A charging circuit, that is rare. Most homes need a 400A service for that.

You probably could not run a double oven, dryer, HVAC, and some lights concurrently with a 80A charge. But if you were judicious and set your 100A charger to only run after bedtime, you might be able to pull it off.

It was more than just getting the electrician to agree. I passed inspection, and ran the oven (double), dryer, HVAC (heat pump), and 110A in EVSE (60A and 50A) at the same time for at least an hour and everything was good and the panel was cool. It was the most energy I ever pulled but I wanted some confidence. Remember, many of these other appliances cycle their power and a 100A EVSE isn't pulling 100A so there is capacity there and normally I would only run both ovens one day a year.

[Windshieldfarmer]

Originally Posted by Pictor

It was more than just getting the electrician to agree. I passed inspection, and ran the oven (double), dryer, HVAC (heat pump), and 110A in EVSE (60A and 50A) at the same time for at least an hour and everything was good and the panel was cool. It was the most energy I ever pulled but I wanted some confidence. Remember, many of these other appliances cycle their power and a 100A EVSE isn't pulling 100A so there is capacity there and normally I would only run both ovens one day a year.

I am surprised that load did not cause a problem for you. I have 200amp service and would not attempt what you have done…obviously it’s working for you. That’s a lot of pull…

[LVBMW]

Originally Posted by Pictor

I have a home built in 2007 which can easily support 19.2kW. I don't know why it's dumb. If you have a 200A service panel and don't have a hot tub, pool, or welder then chances are you can support a 100A circuit for a 80A EVSE.

I have a 2018 home with a 200A panel, and the electrician said I would not pass inspection with more than a 50A charger circuit as that (plus the double ovens, electric dryer, and central HVAC) would use up 197 of the 200 available amps.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by LVBMW

I have a 2018 home with a 200A panel, and the electrician said I would not pass inspection with more than a 50A charger circuit as that (plus the double ovens, electric dryer, and central HVAC) would use up 197 of the 200 available amps.

Was that 197A based on a load test or just adding up the breakers?

[LVBMW]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Was that 197A based on a load test or just adding up the breakers?

I'm unclear. I am assuming from adding up as this was via text message several days after he'd been at the house taking photos and examining the panel, etc. He said this was after he had done the "load calculations." He said this was the maximum circuit (50A) that would pass the electrical inspection.