[LuisBoston]

This is timely:

Tesla’s Rivals Still Can’t Use Its Superchargers

Scarce and finicky public chargers are among the biggest reasons people hesitate to buy electric cars. So when Elon Musk, the chief executive of Tesla, agreed last year to open the company’s well-regarded Supercharger network to vehicles from other carmakers, many drivers and industry experts celebrated the decision.

But more than 12 months later, Tesla’s network, with nearly 30,000 fast-charging plugs in the United States and Canada, remains largely inaccessible to most people who don’t drive Teslas because of software delays and hardware shortages.

The delays have fueled speculation that Mr. Musk was having second thoughts about opening up Tesla’s network, possibly because he was worried that access would help other automakers sell battery-powered models and lure customers from Tesla, which has suffered from declining sales.

Tesla eased those fears a bit on Friday when the company’s charging unit posted on X that it had stepped up production of a crucial piece of hardware: adapters that drivers of Ford, Rivian and other car brands need to connect to Tesla chargers.

A Tesla factory in Buffalo is producing 8,000 of the adapters per week, the company said, noting that outside suppliers are also producing the part. Still, it is unclear how fast those adapters would reach electric vehicle owners.

Tesla did not respond to a request for comment, and the other automakers have been reluctant to speak in detail, apparently because they do not want to antagonize Tesla and Mr. Musk.

The slow rollout raises questions about the decision that almost all major carmakers operating in the United States made to abandon the Combined Charging System, the standard that most of them used previously, and adopt the North American Charging Standard developed by Tesla. The switch made them vulnerable to the whims of Mr. Musk, who frequently changes corporate strategy and tactics in ways that can surprise even his employees and supporters.

Tesla built the Supercharger network to encourage sales of its own vehicles. By opening up the network, Tesla can make money from drivers of other car brands, who pay per kilowatt-hour to charge. The electric car company also makes money from selling adapters to other automakers.

But Tesla risks alienating its own customers, who will lose exclusive access to the chargers.

Tesla’s opening up of its chargers to other automakers was meant to be a three-stage process.

First, Tesla and each automaker would update the software on Tesla’s chargers and the other company’s cars so they could work with each other. Second, Tesla would make and supply adapters to allow other cars to connect to its chargers, which use different plugs. The final step is supposed to happen next year, when most automakers plan to start installing Tesla plugs on the new cars they assemble, eliminating the need for an adapter.

So far only two car companies have advanced past the first stage with Tesla — Ford Motor and Rivian. General Motors had said it expected to complete the software coordination with Tesla this spring but now says it will happen later this year. Other automakers are expected to follow G.M.

But even most drivers of electric Ford and Rivian models do not yet have access to Tesla chargers because the companies have not received enough adapters from Tesla.

It probably hasn’t helped that, in April, Mr. Musk abruptly dismissed nearly all of the 500 people responsible for the Supercharger network, including Rebecca Tinucci, who led the charging division. (Tesla has since rehired some of the employees. This month, Ms. Tinucci became the head of sustainability at Uber.)

“When Elon fired his whole Supercharger team I said, ‘This doesn’t look good,’” said Mike McMahon, a retired airline pilot who lives in Florida and is waiting for a free adapter from Ford that he ordered in February.

There is nothing to prevent Ford and Rivian from buying adapters from other suppliers, but it may not be easy to find firms with the manufacturing capacity and expertise. Adapters from other firms would have to go through an extensive testing and approval process.

Ford told owners of its Mustang Mach-E sport utility vehicle and F-150 Lightning pickup last month that the adapters were delayed by several months because of “ongoing supply constraints.” Ford, which had promised free adapters to owners of its electric vehicles, declined to comment further.

Rivian, which makes electric pickups and S.U.V.s, said “a challenging supply chain position” had led to adapter shortages. In a statement, the company added that it was “ramping up adapter supply as quickly as possible.”

“We are working closely with Tesla to support the industry’s overall transition” to the plugs used by Superchargers, Rivian said.

But having adapters will not be enough for drivers of electric cars not made by Tesla, Ford or Rivian. Every other automaker still needs to work with Tesla to make software updates for the cars to use the company’s chargers. That first step could drag on for months at the current pace.

G.M. has not said when its customers will be able to use Tesla chargers. “G.M. continues to work in good faith with Tesla to finalize an agreement that offers a seamless Supercharger network experience for our customers,” the company said in a statement for this article.

Besides frustrating owners, the Tesla charging bottleneck may discourage electric vehicle sales, which have been growing more slowly than a year ago. Tesla’s Superchargers are widely viewed as the most reliable, and they are often in places where other chargers are scarce, assuring drivers with access to them that they won’t be stranded with an empty battery.

About 100 Supercharger sites are equipped with adapters allowing them to work with non-Tesla vehicles. But that is a small fraction of Tesla’s network of more than 2,500 charging stations in the United States and Canada. Each station can have a dozen or more charging ports.

Behind the scenes, technical experts from automakers and other interested parties have been working to adapt Tesla’s proprietary technology so it works flawlessly with other electric vehicles. That process is often fraught, acknowledged Oleg Logvinov, chairman of the Charging Interface Initiative North America, an industry group whose members include Ford and Tesla.

“Transition is painful,” Mr. Logvinov said.

But once the problems are worked out, he added, “it’s hugely beneficial because it leads to a much higher adoption rate.” He noted that there had been competing technical standards in the early days of mobile phones, and that sales had taken off after the industry whittled them down.

Amid slumping car sales, Tesla has also slowed construction of new Supercharger stations, a blow to the Biden administration’s effort to encourage expansion of the charging network and promote electric vehicle use. The administration and many environmental groups view electric vehicles as crucial to reducing the greenhouse gas emissions that are warming the planet.

Last year, Tesla installed almost 6,000 fast-charging plugs in the United States, far more than companies like ChargePoint, EVgo and Electrify America, according to Rho Motion, a research firm. Tesla installed 2,750 during the first half of this year, but the pace has declined steeply since then, the firm said.

Some Ford and Rivian owners have gotten tired of waiting and bought adapters from other suppliers whose products are not endorsed by automakers. Their experience suggests that access to the Tesla network makes road trips much easier.

Reid Hester, a retired clinical psychologist who lives in California and owns a Mustang Mach-E, bought an adapter online for a little more than $200.

The Charging Interface Initiative, the group led by Mr. Logvinov, warns that adapters not endorsed by manufacturers may be unsafe. But Mr. Hester said his worked well. Having Tesla’s network as an option “just reduces your range anxiety,” he said.


I say don’t play games with an unstable monopolist.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Sorry should have been more specific. I was wondering about ‘third party’ manufacturers of cooled J3400 cables.

Aaah, no clue. I don't follow that part of the market at all.

[LeeInCT]

thanks this is a huge update, coming from NYT
the more press it gets the more pressure will be on the involved parties. Let them know that people and press have not forgotten their promises.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by LeeInCT

thanks this is a huge update, coming from NYT
the more press it gets the more pressure will be on the involved parties. Let them know that people and press have not forgotten their promises.

What is most interesting about that NYT piece is that it contains no actual journalism. It just regurgitates publicly available information and adds quotes from a couple owners. It's a fluff piece.

The most impressive thing that column indirectly reveals is that none of the automakers have said a word about why the delays. Tesla typically does not respond to journalists, but nobody at GM, M-B, Volvo, Polestar, etc. have spilled a single word of T. In other words, nobody knows why GM delayed and got apparently leapfrogged, and nobody in the know has given a single clue.

[LeeInCT]

"Tesla's Supercharger Network and the Delays in Opening It to Other Electric Vehicles"


https://www.sigortahaber.com/haber/2...ctric-vehicles

This maybe is why the radio silence regarding this issue:
"Tesla has not responded to requests for comments, and other automakers have been hesitant to provide details, likely to avoid antagonizing Tesla and Mr. Musk."

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

What is most interesting about that NYT piece is that it contains no actual journalism. It just regurgitates publicly available information and adds quotes from a couple owners. It's a fluff piece.

The most impressive thing that column indirectly reveals is that none of the automakers have said a word about why the delays. Tesla typically does not respond to journalists, but nobody at GM, M-B, Volvo, Polestar, etc. have spilled a single word of T. In other words, nobody knows why GM delayed and got apparently leapfrogged, and nobody in the know has given a single clue.

Actually, the most interesting thing what you stress: that neither Tesla or the OEMs are talking, the latter because they don’t want to antagonize Musk and his fragile ego lest he lash out at them.

Again, childish actions of a (wannabe) monopolist.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

the latter because they don’t want to antagonize Musk and his fragile ego lest he lash out at them.

This is just personal opinion and not something we can confirm through objective information.

At this point, we don't know if the issue is adapter delay, OEM issues ramping up their side, or issues within Tesla. The fact that Ford and Rivian onboarded and GM delayed suggests that it may not be solely Tesla or adapters.

Jumping back up a bit... My hunch is that GM's delay is largely on GM's side. They are a software dumpster fire and dealing with many problems in their Ultium platform. So, I am watching the next round of automakers (Nissan, Volvo/Polestar, M-B) for clues about progress that can lead to our BMW guesses. Also, I am watching Hyundai Motor Group to see if they leap forward from 2025. Rumor is that HMG will be rolling out cars with NACS ports in 2024.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

This is just personal opinion and not something we can confirm through objective information.

At this point, we don't know if the issue is adapter delay, OEM issues ramping up their side, or issues within Tesla. The fact that Ford and Rivian onboarded and GM delayed suggests that it may not be solely Tesla or adapters.

Jumping back up a bit... My hunch is that GM's delay is largely on GM's side. They are a software dumpster fire and dealing with many problems in their Ultium platform. So, I am watching the next round of automakers (Nissan, Volvo/Polestar, M-B) for clues about progress that can lead to our BMW guesses. Also, I am watching Hyundai Motor Group to see if they leap forward from 2025. Rumor is that HMG will be rolling out cars with NACS ports in 2024.

If the delay was primarily on GM's side, they would have skipped them and gone to the next OEM in line, no?

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

If the delay was primarily on GM's side, they would have skipped them and gone to the next OEM in line, no?

They did skip GM and went to the next one: Rivian. But then they got corked-up with everyone. Volvo & Polestar were the 4th & 5th to sign, so logic would have expected them to follow. But now it looks like they are behind Nissan, who pulled way up.

I think the next automaker to onboard will help with clues and confidence about downstream timing.

Edit: Here's another perspective... Tesla just made an announcement that they can produce 8,000 adapters/week. This implies that the former production was significantly lower than that. Ford & Rivian have around 220,000 CCS 1 cars on the road. So, it would take Tesla 28 weeks to produce that many adapters at 8K/week. Those two only joined 26 weeks ago. The limited amount of information we have suggests that the adapters are likely one of the bottlenecks. Maybe not the only bottleneck, but it seems pretty significant to me.

[jimbg]

Come to the UK? https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/...ging-other-evs

Not sure if it will work but scroll the map in the Tesla app across to the UK.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

This is just personal opinion and not something we can confirm through objective information.

My hunch is that GM's delay is largely on GM's side. They are a software dumpster fire and dealing with many problems in their Ultium platform.

My opinion vs your “hunch”- Tesla and the other OEMs are not saying anything.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

They did skip GM and went to the next one: Rivian. But then they got corked-up with everyone. Volvo & Polestar were the 4th & 5th to sign, so logic would have expected them to follow. But now it looks like they are behind Nissan, who pulled way up.

I think the next automaker to onboard will help with clues and confidence about downstream timing.

Edit: Here's another perspective... Tesla just made an announcement that they can produce 8,000 adapters/week. This implies that the former production was significantly lower than that. Ford & Rivian have around 220,000 CCS 1 cars on the road. So, it would take Tesla 28 weeks to produce that many adapters at 8K/week. Those two only joined 26 weeks ago. The limited amount of information we have suggests that the adapters are likely one of the bottlenecks. Maybe not the only bottleneck, but it seems pretty significant to me.

Ok if they skipped GM then I concede that it is very likely GM itself had an issue.

In the end all the car companies involved are not properly communicating the progress (or lack thereof) with their customers in a clear and transparent way. I wonder if there was something in the agreement that prevents them from disclosing the details...

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

Ok if they skipped GM then I concede that it is very likely GM itself had an issue.

In the end all the car companies involved are not properly communicating the progress (or lack thereof) with their customers in a clear and transparent way. I wonder if there was something in the agreement that prevents them from disclosing the details...

Yep, it's maddening. My daughter has a Bolt in San Diego, and CCS charging there is an absolute dumpster fire. I am counting the minutes we can get that car on the Supercharger network. I have been following the GM forums because of this.

The GM forum folks are hopping around, digging up every possible rumor and clue, in hopes of going live soon.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Yep, it's maddening. My daughter has a Bolt in San Diego, and CCS charging there is an absolute dumpster fire. I am counting the minutes we can get that car on the Supercharger network. I have been following the GM forums because of this.

The GM forum folks are hopping around, digging up every possible rumor and clue, in hopes of going live soon.

I have always heard that the SoCal superchargers are always swamped so it may not be much better on the other side either unless you/she has scoped out a location which is not normally busy. Maybe that's more in and around LA and not as far down as SD. I find that there are just too many people that have EVs relying on public infrastructure for their routine charging (I know some don't have a choice in the matter) and that Tesla's are generally overrepresented in this group of people because unlike other brands who can refer you to a similar sized/spec'd gas model when an EV isn't right for you (if they do their job well they will ask the right questions to figure this out), Tesla won't do that. Instead they will downplay the issue and make it seem as if using superchargers for your daily driving needs has no downsides instead of being honest and letting the customer decide for themselves. This is why every time we get a long cold spell (-20C for a week) the supercharger closest to me has issues and long queues. Plenty of nearby locals coming in with stone cold batteries to charge up and taking forever causing any actual travelers with conditioned batteries to get cold too and also take forever and it snowballs out of control and then the news shows them and people then complain about EVs in general as a result. All this while the two CCS chargers next to it are usually empty.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

I have always heard that the SoCal superchargers are always swamped so it may not be much better on the other side either unless you/she has scoped out a location which is not normally busy. Maybe that's more in and around LA and not as far down as SD. I find that there are just too many people that have EVs relying on public infrastructure for their routine charging (I know some don't have a choice in the matter) and that Tesla's are generally overrepresented in this group of people because unlike other brands who can refer you to a similar sized/spec'd gas model when an EV isn't right for you (if they do their job well they will ask the right questions to figure this out), Tesla won't do that. Instead they will downplay the issue and make it seem as if using superchargers for your daily driving needs has no downsides instead of being honest and letting the customer decide for themselves. This is why every time we get a long cold spell (-20C for a week) the supercharger closest to me has issues and long queues. Plenty of nearby locals coming in with stone cold batteries to charge up and taking forever causing any actual travelers with conditioned batteries to get cold too and also take forever and it snowballs out of control and then the news shows them and people then complain about EVs in general as a result. All this while the two CCS chargers next to it are usually empty.

Ha, yeah I joke that LA is not SoCal - it is MiddleCal. San Diego is actually in southern California. Superchargers in San Diego are actually pretty accessible. It is busy, for sure, but there are plenty of them.

My daughter is in the category of not having a choice but to use public charging infrastructure. We were a bit naive when we got the car, thinking public charging in the BEV paradise would be easy. It is the polar opposite. In retrospect, we should have bought an ICEV - but the Bolt was a great deal and seemed like a great choice. One of her roommates got a Model 3 at the same time, and her roommate's charging life has been easy street by comparison.

[Pictor]

I know this is very much an edge case but Oahu, HI is a total SuperCharger hell hole. There is one SC on the south east side of the island and while the valet only service is convenient if you're okay with paying $6+tip, it's also horrible if you're anywhere else on the island. On the north shore, there are some pretty slow CCS DC chargers as well as scattered throughout the island. If you're in a T* you're either stuck with 6kW L2 chargers that are pretty much everywhere or you drive over the 'hill' to charge at the only SC on the island or try your luck at one of the hotel L2 chargers. Obviously, with a T* you can use any CCS1 plug if you have the adapter but the default L2 J1772 adapter won't help you if you want a "quick" charge at 50kW. The bottom line is that T* is still a walled garden.

All this discussion of T*'s slow rollout is entirely within their control, not the incumbent manufacturers - T* could open their network up to CCS1 cars in their app if they wanted to.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

I know this is very much an edge case but Oahu, HI is a total SuperCharger hell hole. There is one SC on the south east side of the island and while the valet only service is convenient if you're okay with paying $6+tip, it's also horrible if you're anywhere else on the island.

This made me think of another edge case... but one thought here: Hawaii is an island (well, lots of islands). The need for DCFC to support road trips is about non-existent. So, I could see why Tesla and others are not installing much DCFC hardware - low demand. It has been a few years since I was in Hawaii, but I think I remember lots of Teslas on the road there.

In most European countries I have visited (Iceland, UK, Spain, France, etc.) there were public chargers everywhere. Particularly in France, it seemed like owning a BEV would be pretty easy for charging. I recently traveled to Greece, and I only saw one public charger - it was a BMW L2 EVSE on the wall of our hotel. Owning a BEV in Greece would suck bigly if you needed public infrastructure of any kind.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Ha, yeah I joke that LA is not SoCal - it is MiddleCal. San Diego is actually in southern California. Superchargers in San Diego are actually pretty accessible. It is busy, for sure, but there are plenty of them.

My daughter is in the category of not having a choice but to use public charging infrastructure. We were a bit naive when we got the car, thinking public charging in the BEV paradise would be easy. It is the polar opposite. In retrospect, we should have bought an ICEV - but the Bolt was a great deal and seemed like a great choice. One of her roommates got a Model 3 at the same time, and her roommate's charging life has been easy street by comparison.

Don’t Bolts max out at like 50kw too?

I swear pulling into an EA station and seeing a Bolt or 2 sitting at 150kw makes my blood pressure rise. And they never move. Them and Niros sitting to 100% pulling 18 or 19 kws.

The last time I went to an EA a Bolt driver let me pass him in line. When I got to charging I notice he let someone else pass. I went to him and asked “why?”

His response: “I’m waiting for a Hyper” (350kw)

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦& zwj;♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

Don’t Bolts max out at like 50kw too?

Yep. But the reality is, in San Diego, BEV drivers cannot choose which dispenser they get. You must charge where you can, when you can.

Even in stations that may be fortunate to have both working 150 kW and 350 kW dispensers, the Bolt driver, like everyone else, must take the next available unit.

Heck, those Hyundai E-GMP drivers are justified when they blow their corks seeing an iX parked at a 350 kW dispenser when there are perfectly fine 150s in the station.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Heck, those Hyundai E-GMP drivers are justified when they blow their corks seeing an iX parked at a 350 kW dispenser when there are perfectly fine 150s in the station.

Are they? I can pull over 200 for a time.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

Are they? I can pull over 200 for a time.

I was being facetious. But a 350 kW dispenser does benefit an E-GMP more than an iX.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

This is just personal opinion and not something we can confirm through objective information.

At this point, we don't know if the issue is adapter delay, OEM issues ramping up their side, or issues within Tesla. The fact that Ford and Rivian onboarded and GM delayed suggests that it may not be solely Tesla or adapters.

Jumping back up a bit... My hunch is that GM's delay is largely on GM's side. They are a software dumpster fire and dealing with many problems in their Ultium platform. So, I am watching the next round of automakers (Nissan, Volvo/Polestar, M-B) for clues about progress that can lead to our BMW guesses. Also, I am watching Hyundai Motor Group to see if they leap forward from 2025. Rumor is that HMG will be rolling out cars with NACS ports in 2024.

Very well said. I think you are dead on. This has little to do with Musk I suspect