[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by RinconHeat

I will certainly miss rowing my own gears and that beautiful sound of the magnificent i6, however, the Taycan has impressed some pretty reluctant professionals. Furthermore, moving to electric propulsion is the the responsible thing to do and I'm hopeful there will be some new thrills afoot that might soothe a bit of the pain from the loss of those visceral notes.

"Responsible" is a very subjective thing. I'm not saying you're doing this, but a lot of the EV crowd attempts to guilt-trip people driving ICE cars by bringing up environmentalism. Cars are my hobby so there's no place for moral high wringing in my opinion.

On the topic of the Taycan, reviews rave about how it drives but always comment on its weight and how it's not an actual "sports car." Road & Track recently did a comparison between the 911 and Taycan, the latter is 1500 lbs heavier.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...aycan-turbo-s/

On the topic of the M2, engineering a 3600 lb model like the current M2 would be an arduous task, and if achieved the car will cost nowhere near $60,000. I do commend BMW on attempting to pipe fake ICE noises into this i4, as it is a common complaint amongst enthusiasts and would make the switch to an EV easier.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by Penguino

This is not a Model 3 competitor unless its priced at $40-$50K. This seems to be a $70-$80K car.

It's definitely a competitor in performance and ugliness though.

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by paliknight

It's definitely a competitor in performance and ugliness though.

Performance is remarkable. It's a very fast car.

When I owned the i3 I barely ever felt the need to floor it. It's plenty peppy. Teslas are incredibly fast but the acceleration is almost headache inducing.

If I can find an i4 M under $70K and 300 mile range it'll probably be my daily. What would be killer is if it gets a sports interior similar to the M3 bucket seats as an option but I can only dream.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

As a public service, look somewhere else. Bought and had to dump a $60k+ 2016 A6 3.0T Prestige in about two years after random electrical problems, unfixable trans problems ("they all do that and yes, others complain too"), early brake disc failure denied for warranty. Final straw was tech telling us he was told to alter repair order to support denying warranty and blaming "pad transfer". Dishonorable and cannot be trusted on top of poor quality. NEVER AGAIN! Suggest looking anywhere else. Good luck.

I've had wonderful experiences and no issues in 300k miles of various VAG products, and routine headaches with BMW (I'm not complaining, had fun).

Lately BMW has dropped the ball. Designs are far too flashy, the ttV8 is still a hot mess after 10 years of revision, and they still are heavy. The power steering unit is numb and overheats, and the little cherry on top is BMW Motorsport is at a low point.

Audi meanwhile has nearly caught Porsche in Le Mans wins, had engineers stolen by BMW, has the best interiors, impressive race cars in the RS3 LMS and R8 LMS, and the RS badge actually means something.

BMW sold is soul to go mainstream and has stumbled with a few engines and electrics while Audi in my view has embraced its heritage and taken the lead.

And, for the record, I've seen the M4/3 in person and I don't think it's that bad, the 4 series is hideous though. The bmw designs are Bad but Designs are pass fail as far as my wallet is concerned.

I think new Audi is simply better than new bmw.

Though, I do realize Audi has a reputation just like bmw, my personal experience has been wasted money on warranty's.

[cfm56d7b]

It's safe to say that i4M is one of the most - of not the most - awaited vehicles.

I look forward to adding it to the buy list.

[DCG]

This is great news!

At least with this one they don't need to worry about kidney grills because it will NOT need any.

[DCG]

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

There is a difference between expensive and luxury. Tesla carries a high price due to technology. To keep cost in control and price in reach, the rest of the vehicle is relatively spartan.

The rest of the vehicle is spartan because that's the whole point. Tesla doesn't use Swarovski crystals on various buttons not because they're cheap but because there are no buttons of any kind.

And at the same time, every single piece of functionality associated with luxury cars is present. No matter the season, the car is at your preset temperature when you get in. The seat and the steering wheel are at your personal position even if your wife drove it last. The entertainment system has all the right sources, which are _not_ FM or SiriusXM (1999 called, says hi), and the audio system is on par or better than BMW HK setup. All driver assist stuff is there and works as expected once you forget the hype and take it for what it actually is. Etc etc etc.

Now, you might say what about materials and build quality? And my response is: BMW has become shit in those two things. A BMW might have smaller panels gaps but it will never last as long as an average Model 3 without some major cash outlays for stupid little things breaking down all the time. And BMW will never be able to make up the difference as long as their solution is a platform built to work for both ICE and BEV setups like G26 is. It is simply too complex.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

I've had wonderful experiences and no issues in 300k miles of various VAG products, and routine headaches with BMW (I'm not complaining, had fun).

Lately BMW has dropped the ball. Designs are far too flashy, the ttV8 is still a hot mess after 10 years of revision, and they still are heavy. The power steering unit is numb and overheats, and the little cherry on top is BMW Motorsport is at a low point.

Audi meanwhile has nearly caught Porsche in Le Mans wins, had engineers stolen by BMW, has the best interiors, impressive race cars in the RS3 LMS and R8 LMS, and the RS badge actually means something.

BMW sold is soul to go mainstream and has stumbled with a few engines and electrics while Audi in my view has embraced its heritage and taken the lead.

And, for the record, I've seen the M4/3 in person and I don't think it's that bad, the 4 series is hideous though. The bmw designs are Bad but Designs are pass fail as far as my wallet is concerned.

I think new Audi is simply better than new bmw.

Though, I do realize Audi has a reputation just like bmw, my personal experience has been wasted money on warranty's.

I'm not trying to defend BMW vs. Audi at all. From the worst automotive ownership experience in my life of poor quality and egregiously dishonest behavior, I'm just suggesting anything except an Audi. Take a new Genesis for a spin. Anything.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

The rest of the vehicle is spartan because that's the whole point. Tesla doesn't use Swarovski crystals on various buttons not because they're cheap but because there are no buttons of any kind.

And at the same time, every single piece of functionality associated with luxury cars is present. No matter the season, the car is at your preset temperature when you get in. The seat and the steering wheel are at your personal position even if your wife drove it last. The entertainment system has all the right sources, which are _not_ FM or SiriusXM (1999 called, says hi), and the audio system is on par or better than BMW HK setup. All driver assist stuff is there and works as expected once you forget the hype and take it for what it actually is. Etc etc etc.

Now, you might say what about materials and build quality? And my response is: BMW has become shit in those two things. A BMW might have smaller panels gaps but it will never last as long as an average Model 3 without some major cash outlays for stupid little things breaking down all the time. And BMW will never be able to make up the difference as long as their solution is a platform built to work for both ICE and BEV setups like G26 is. It is simply too complex.

Spartan wasn't the point. It was the necessary compromise to develop a program within total variable cost targets. Not necessary to go all the way to crystals to just have decent quality materials inside, but they are working on a tight budget and pressure to get to Elon's originally promised and never delivered entry price point. Not sure why BMW comes into your defense of poor quality in Tesla. "Whataboutism" never substantiates an original position. Tesla quality is objectively low all on its' own, regardless of what any other OEM does...so how is BMW or anyone else relevant as a defense of how many times Tesla has failed across all of its' models?

As to the BMW platform strategy, it's the opposite of complex. It allows developing different products from the simplicity and efficiency of a common platform. The complexity would result from trying to cross-load fundamentally different platforms in a shared plant during the time in history when they don't project a full plant's worth of just EV powertrain orders yet. Of course Tesla has a "dedicated" EV platform....they have nothing else to sell!!! If and when EV becomes dominant, more dedicated platforms will be developed, but there is nothing about this strategy that inherently causes this "difference" you hypothesize.

And, what is this "difference" are you trying to measure? Build quality? Conditions per vehicle? Large sample data already shows Tesla is bottom of the industry, so the gap is theirs to close.

[bavarianboar]

Off topic

Tesla should get ready to get it's butt kicked by lucid. They slipped a minimalistic interior for very high price for years to customers and now dropping prices coz hey some companies have very high margins and their stock price could only be understood by an alien species swimming in the recently discovered pools on mars

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by Penguino

Performance is remarkable. It's a very fast car.

When I owned the i3 I barely ever felt the need to floor it. It's plenty peppy. Teslas are incredibly fast but the acceleration is almost headache inducing.

If I can find an i4 M under $70K and 300 mile range it'll probably be my daily. What would be killer is if it gets a sports interior similar to the M3 bucket seats as an option but I can only dream.

I agree with your desires, but my feel is that the low end i4s will get 100-150 miles range, and you will have to spend 80-100k for one with 300 miles range. Bmw is trying to keep the battery packs small so as to reduce the weight and cost it seems. Along with this I think the i4M will have a small battery. Of course this is just my hunch

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

I agree with your desires, but my feel is that the low end i4s will get 100-150 miles range, and you will have to spend 80-100k for one with 300 miles range. Bmw is trying to keep the battery packs small so as to reduce the weight and cost it seems. Along with this I think the i4M will have a small battery. Of course this is just my hunch

Range has been stated as 373 miles on the European testing cycle (about 270 miles EPA) for the 80kw battery model. I'm sure the i4 M will most likely have a 90 or 100kw battery.

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by DCG

$105K start MSRP.

i4 is expected at $50K starting. I'd guess the i4 M will start between $70K-$80K

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by Penguino

$105K start MSRP.

i4 is expected at $50K starting. I'd guess the i4 M will start between $70K-$80K

I have seen that 50k-starting estimate too, one data point from car and driver. BMW is still eligible for the full US 7500 tax rebate as well, so that may sweeten the deal for some

[PARTS@STBMW]

Very interesting!

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Spartan wasn't the point. It was the necessary compromise to develop a program within total variable cost targets. Not necessary to go all the way to crystals to just have decent quality materials inside, but they are working on a tight budget and pressure to get to Elon's originally promised and never delivered entry price point. Not sure why BMW comes into your defense of poor quality in Tesla. "Whataboutism" never substantiates an original position. Tesla quality is objectively low all on its' own, regardless of what any other OEM does...so how is BMW or anyone else relevant as a defense of how many times Tesla has failed across all of its' models?

You can't take a response on a BMW forum in a thread about a BMW model where Tesla comes up specifically in comparison to BMW and say that another reply comparing BMW to Tesla, but now less favorably to BMW, is suddenly whataboutist.

As to the BMW platform strategy, it's the opposite of complex. It allows developing different products from the simplicity and efficiency of a common platform. The complexity would result from trying to cross-load fundamentally different platforms in a shared plant during the time in history when they don't project a full plant's worth of just EV powertrain orders yet. Of course Tesla has a "dedicated" EV platform....they have nothing else to sell!!! If and when EV becomes dominant, more dedicated platforms will be developed, but there is nothing about this strategy that inherently causes this "difference" you hypothesize.

How is it not obvious that I was talking about the actual finished product and not about plant design? Do people walking into the showroom really care how the car was manufactured or that the brand is trying to juggle three different types of powertrains? They just want something that will work, day in day out. Teslas are a much simpler product, with fewer parts, and you can't have a failure of something that doesn't even exist in a car. And if Tesla has this advantage because they only build EV, well, tough luck.

And, what is this "difference" are you trying to measure? Build quality? Conditions per vehicle? Large sample data already shows Tesla is bottom of the industry, so the gap is theirs to close.

"Large sample data" only addresses initial quality, which is not what I was talking about.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

You can't take a response on a BMW forum in a thread about a BMW model where Tesla comes up specifically in comparison to BMW and say that another reply comparing BMW to Tesla, but now less favorably to BMW, is suddenly whataboutist.
How is it not obvious that I was talking about the actual finished product and not about plant design? Do people walking into the showroom really care how the car was manufactured or that the brand is trying to juggle three different types of powertrains? They just want something that will work, day in day out. Teslas are a much simpler product, with fewer parts, and you can't have a failure of something that doesn't even exist in a car. And if Tesla has this advantage because they only build EV, well, tough luck.

"Large sample data" only addresses initial quality, which is not what I was talking about.

Let's skip over the issue of style of debate and go to the interesting part.

You offered a concern that BMW will never "make up the difference" because platform sharing for ICE and EV is "simply too complex" as part of your discussion about quality. Apparently, your concern is not initial quality, but quality over time, from your last comment? (BTW, large sample data is also studied over 3 years in service. At JDP it is IQS vs VDS data.) I still disagree that the platform-sharing approach adds complexity*. The platform consists of the floorpan, cowl, engine box. If BMW had identified how to package ICE and EV powertains as well as package the batteries, and the design/dynamic intent is achieved, what is this "complexity" you allege? The ability of the body structure, the interior components, etc. to all function as designed is not in any way impeded by the fact that the same platform on another program is shared. Can you be more specific on what exact kind of complexity will relate to and inhibit quality from platform sharing?

(*One issue may be semantics. We used "complexity" at my former employer OEM to count build combinations. Some use it to mean counting parts - known as APEI...assembly plant end items.)

As to simplicity equating to reliability, that may be true if certain basic engineering goals are accomplished which sometimes seem to elude Tesla. As simple as you suggest Tesla may be, the rate of failure for various components seems to be high enough, based on owner reports, to offset that potential benefit. One recent example I read on just one car...three installations of an electronically activated rear door latch as each failed to allow the door to open when activated. Other OEMs do not use an electronically activated latch, so your premise is correct that it cannot fail for them.

https://insideevs.com/news/449158/te...ar-door-stuck/

[antzcrashing]

Is this going to be an M performance model like M440i or is it going to be a full M car? iM4 and the CF mirrors seem to hint at the latter, but its hard to tell

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Is this going to be an M performance model like M440i or is it going to be a full M car? iM4 and the CF mirrors seem to hint at the latter, but its hard to tell

full M I think

[Mako]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

full M I think

Yeah looks like hood is same as new M3/M4 as well, but the grill appears to have the frame on it which the M3/M4 don't have. I like the look better without the frame.

Watching that new David Attenborough documentary makes me feel really shitty about buying my X3M now. Might have to go electric, was holding out for hydrogen cars but think that's a long way off.

[VetteGuy]

The hood, headlights and grill all appear to me to be very much from the concept car and the same as the new 4 series cars, which of course are based on the i4 concept car. The rear appears to be a trunk, not a hatch, as the deck cut runs up to the edge of the rear glass with no surround to support a hatch glass. With the hood as high as it is, I wonder if there is a decent sized “frunk” supplementing a rear trunk.

To me the the rear side glass looks messy as it extends into the roofline, like the faux window on the side rear of the Cadillac CT-5. I assume it is about rear cabin space but it looks too long.