[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by sor

At this point I’m more interested in hearing if EVgo, EA, ChargePoint, etc have a strategy. Will they be able to switch? I am not sure the EVSE side is as readily available for open use.

I’m fine with the NACS connector, it’s a good connector, but I don’t think forcing everyone to use Tesla SC network is going to do the world any favors. Charging needs to be ubiquitous and there needs to be competition, there should be nothing fancy and magical/proprietary about recharging your car, it should be easy and mundane.

I can't see reason why competition won't happen the old fashioned way, like with gas stations.

Sell franchises. More convenient locations charge more. Less convenient locations discount rates to attract customers. Locations earn more money from convenience store sales than selling fuel (electricity) itself.

As for something unique, higher speed chargers can charge more per kWh than slower chargers. Likewise, higher rates apply during peak times (something we already see at superchargers). Offer 10 kWh free with any $10 purchase at the convenience store.

Lots of possibilities. And I really don't think the rest of the world realizes how much easier it is to handle a NACS connector. They will eventually learn when they visit NA and rent NACS EVs. And then maybe realize why the entire CCSx plug is just ridiculous with so many unnecessary contacts.

[JonoNZ]

At this point the NACS "standard" needs to be moved to a body completely independent of Tesla. Having Tesla/Elon deciding who gets admitted to the club should be completely unacceptable if it's a true standard.

[venom21]

Originally Posted by JonoNZ

At this point the NACS "standard" needs to be moved to a body completely independent of Tesla. Having Tesla/Elon deciding who gets admitted to the club should be completely unacceptable if it's a true standard.

I don't think its Elon admitting people to the club, anyone can use NACS. Its Elon admitting people to use the Supercharger Network which is the real draw. No one cares about EVgo, EA, Chargepoint etc because they'll still have shitty reliability even with NACS due to poor maintenance. They care about gaining access to Tesla chargers, because they are the gold standard for reliability and ease of use.

[JonoNZ]

Originally Posted by venom21

I don't think its Elon admitting people to the club, anyone can use NACS. Its Elon admitting people to use the Supercharger Network which is the real draw. No one cares about EVgo, EA, Chargepoint etc because they'll still have shitty reliability even with NACS due to poor maintenance. They care about gaining access to Tesla chargers, because they are the gold standard for reliability and ease of use.

I don't think that is right. Of course everyone wants access the superchargers, but that could be done without you changing to the NACS connector by use of an adaptor. Admission to the SC network requires adopting the plug. That is called control.

Right now there is no evidence to suggest that any car will ship with dual connectors (eg CCS1 AND NACS), they are all changing to NACS. If I were in the US I'd think very carefully about purchasing a car right now with the 'legacy' plug that will rely on an adaptor for its entire life. Adaptors do suck, if you think CCS1 is clunky, combine a NACS and CCS1 adaptor and see how the ergonomics feel.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by venom21

I don't think its Elon admitting people to the club, anyone can use NACS. Its Elon admitting people to use the Supercharger Network which is the real draw. No one cares about EVgo, EA, Chargepoint etc because they'll still have shitty reliability even with NACS due to poor maintenance. They care about gaining access to Tesla chargers, because they are the gold standard for reliability and ease of use.

Originally Posted by JonoNZ

I don't think that is right. Of course everyone wants access the superchargers, but that could be done without you changing to the NACS connector by use of an adaptor. Admission to the SC network requires adopting the plug. That is called control.

I think venom21 is very right. Imagine a company, say VW, deciding to switch to the tesla charger and not having access to the supercharger network.... Today, that would make it the worst EV you could buy as your charging options will be severely limited.

I am confident that Tesla is the one forcing the companies to switch rather than add the tesla connector on top of CCS to their cars (like on the other side of the CCS port) in order to grant access to their supercharger network. Because if they allowed the access without the exclusivity, that car company would have double the charging infrastructure available to it compared to all other cars and would be better than a Tesla.

Although one can argue that between CCS stations in NA and Tesla superchargers, the Tesla stations win. Mainly because EA sucks at maintaining their chargers (who would have thought that having a company like VW build up a charging network across a vast area like the US as a punishment for dieselgate would yield such poor results?). But if you could have both on your car, it would be better.

[JonoNZ]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

I think venom21 is very right. Imagine a company, say VW, deciding to switch to the tesla charger and not having access to the supercharger network.... Today, that would make it the worst EV you could buy as your charging options will be severely limited.

I am confident that Tesla is the one forcing the companies to switch rather than add the tesla connector on top of CCS to their cars (like on the other side of the CCS port) in order to grant access to their supercharger network. Because if they allowed the access without the exclusivity, that car company would have double the charging infrastructure available to it compared to all other cars and would be better than a Tesla.

Although one can argue that between CCS stations in NA and Tesla superchargers, the Tesla stations win. Mainly because EA sucks at maintaining their chargers (who would have thought that having a company like VW build up a charging network across a vast area like the US as a punishment for dieselgate would yield such poor results?). But if you could have both on your car, it would be better.

I think you misunderstood me. Choosing to 'only put a NACS connector on' and everything will be right is not a realistic choice. To do this requires a deal with Tesla, and the deal comes with access to the SC network BUT you must change to NACS. Again, that is control from a key competitor that needs to be managed/regulated by some standards body or you'll end up with a mess.

The US DOE NEVI funding has in the last week reiterated that to access any federal funding each post needs to have a CCS1 connector. That means, technically, for Tesla to build out its SC network with US Govt funds they need to continue to roll out Magic Dock.

One thing is for certain, Tesla have managed to upturn all other car markers, give buyers yet another reason to just go with Tesla, and probably slow adoption of other brands for a couple of years. Enough time for Tesla to further build on its dominance. Clever stuff for sure.

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by JonoNZ

Right now there is no evidence to suggest that any car will ship with dual connectors (eg CCS1 AND NACS), they are all changing to NACS. If I were in the US I'd think very carefully about purchasing a car right now with the 'legacy' plug that will rely on an adaptor for its entire life. Adaptors do suck, if you think CCS1 is clunky, combine a NACS and CCS1 adaptor and see how the ergonomics feel.

I have a CCS1 adaptor for my Tesla. It is absolutely horrible to use. Inserting/removing the Tesla plug part into the Tesla socket is trivial. But connecting the CCS1 plug into the adaptor socket will test anyone's patience. The force required to make the two click in is ridiculous. Not just a two handed operation, but two hands plus force against another fixed object. Separating the CCS1 plug/socket is just as awkward.

I'm predicting that a NACS to CCS adaptor will necessarily have to be huge because it will need handles for people to force the adaptor into their vehicle CCS socket, and then to remove it. The insertion and removal of the NACS plug into the adaptor socket should be trivial.

I truly believe that just because a bunch of companies agreed on a standard doesn't make it better. Getting to that agreement meant compromise. The whole CCS standard is inherently compromised.

[sor]

Do we really know what is in these agreements though? Are they really SC exclusivity agreements? Because if so that sucks, TBH. I have no problem using EA or EVgo or whomever I can plug into.

I would buy a NACS car, but I wouldn’t buy a car that is SC-only. Single provider is going in the wrong direction and SC is not perfect either.

[sor]

FWIW I read ChargePoint just announced NACS is on the way for their DCFC stations. They are even going to offer a new cord for their HomeFlex owners.

I don’t believe these are exclusivity agreements because Rivian said they are continuing to build out their network as well.

[Pictor]

And that, JonoNZ is the chaos that he introduced. Don't buy a CCS car, buy a NACS car because sometime in the future, you'll have access to a NACS charging network. He said with a smile and a wink.

Right now, very little detail is provided which in itself should raise red flags.

What we do know is that this is only a problem in North America. The current US Federal administration has also said that NEVI funds are available for CCS1 plugs (not NACS). IF NACS is onboarded by a standards organization (example: ISO) then NEVI could be at play here too. The drip of news seems to be driving stocks and FUD more than driving change. EVSE makers have said they will sell NACS cables but that's not anything new. 2024 will be the year of adapters, we'll see.

As for the SC network being the gold standard, is that the case in the EU too? Hyundai's news that they're looking into NACS is interesting since their 800v cars will not have a good experience with the 'gold standard' network. How long do we have to wait for SCv4 in North America? Remember this July 2019 tweet for the CT "We're close, but the magic is in the final details. Maybe 2 to 3 months" Second generation roadsters preorders started in 2017. So when will deliveries start? But I'm sure opening up SC will go to schedule. /sarcasm

Most of us don't care how we get our electricity into our batteries. We just want reliable networks to use when on a road trip. A large percentage of iX buyers in the US also lease so they can get the $7,500 rebate so a good portion of us will just rotate out the car in three years when the dust settles. Will CCS1/J1772 go the same way as CHAdeMo? It's too early to say but even CHAdeMO has at least one available plug at most charging locations even though only a few cars (Leaf, older Niro, and a Mitsubishi) were ever sold in the US with CHAdeMO. There are significantly more CCS1 cars on the road today than CHAdeMO.

[JonoNZ]

Originally Posted by sor

Do we really know what is in these agreements though? Are they really SC exclusivity agreements? Because if so that sucks, TBH. I have no problem using EA or EVgo or whomever I can plug into.

I would buy a NACS car, but I wouldn’t buy a car that is SC-only. Single provider is going in the wrong direction and SC is not perfect either.

I don't think it is means you can only use the SC network, but all announcements to date are that Ford, GM, Rivian, etc are changing to NACS, so there will be no CCS1 connector on their cars from 2025 production.

I am sure other charging networks will add NACS connectors/cables.

[darylp310]

For a full understanding of the situation, it's important to differentiate between the "CCS Connector" and the "CCS Protocol".

Did you know that behind the scenes the Tesla cars since 2020 use the CCS protocol to communicate with the chargers? Ironically, Teslas built prior to 2020 need an adapter to communicate via the CCS protocol. Even though they use the same NACS connector, these Teslas use a different protocol to communicate with the chargers.

All non-Tesla's already use the CCS protocol, so if it's just a matter of changing the connector (or providing a NACS-> CCS adaptor), I bet Tesla will still quality for the federal funding for their SuperChargers.

There was a really good video podcast between Kyle Conner and his dad this past weekend where they went into detail about the switchover from CCS to NACS.

. I learned a ton from this 90 minute discussion!

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by sor

Do we really know what is in these agreements though? Are they really SC exclusivity agreements? Because if so that sucks, TBH. I have no problem using EA or EVgo or whomever I can plug into.

I would buy a NACS car, but I wouldn’t buy a car that is SC-only. Single provider is going in the wrong direction and SC is not perfect either.

The agreements likely force the other automakers to not have a CCS port. They will be able to use any charger that users the Tesla connector.

[JonoNZ]

Originally Posted by darylp310

For a full understanding of the situation, it's important to differentiate between the "CCS Connector" and the "CCS Protocol".

Did you know that behind the scenes the Tesla cars since 2020 use the CCS protocol to communicate with the chargers? Ironically, Teslas built prior to 2020 need an adapter to communicate via the CCS protocol. Even though they use the same NACS connector, these Teslas use a different protocol to communicate with the chargers.

All non-Tesla's already use the CCS protocol, so if it's just a matter of changing the connector (or providing a NACS-> CCS adaptor), I bet Tesla will still quality for the federal funding for their SuperChargers.

There was a really good video podcast between Kyle Conner and his dad this past weekend where they went into detail about the switchover from CCS to NACS.

. I learned a ton from this 90 minute discussion!

Yep, aware of all of that. Tesla's built before mid 2020 don't require an adaptor now though, right? Don't expect that to change on the SC network, it will use both communication standards. But they don't work on CCS1 networks like EA, etc.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

The agreements likely force the other automakers to not have a CCS port. They will be able to use any charger that users the Tesla connector.

Sorry but I cannot watch 1.5 hours of Kyle on this topic. His bias is clearly evident. Statements like "will probably use the same communication methods" (~4:10) doesn't inspire confidence that Tesla is following and using ISO-15118-x. I'm sure they do at some level given it's easier to write one stack for the global fleet but I've worked in many companies where open standards were adopted but rewritten to the point where there were interoperability problems. Show me documentation for what Tesla uses for communication.

However, he's right on the reasons Ford and GM as looking at Tesla. He's also right that any car should be able to plug into any other network. Today NACS cars can plug into CCS chargers but the inverse is not possible -- why?

If you follow CharIN, you'll hear how interoperability is the biggest challenge CPOs and manufactures have. I'm not sure I fully agree with this but assuming that's true, how will having NACS, GBT, and CCS2 help improve reliability even assuming NACS becomes an open standard? Another comical Kyle quote "just make NACS the standard. It's easy" The reality here is that the it's up to Tesla to make NACS an open standard. It's not for Ford or anyone else to make it the standard.

Kyle is smart and knows quite a lot about this industry but he also often overly simplifies charger failures. Anyone in the cloud computing industry will tell you that hardware fails. The question is how and when and what do you do about it. Solving reliability problems by deploying new hardware is often a path to failure if you don't address the failure modes and response to failures.

[darylp310]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Sorry but I cannot watch 1.5 hours of Kyle on this topic. His bias is clearly evident. Statements like "will probably use the same communication methods" (~4:10) doesn't inspire confidence that Tesla is following and using ISO-15118-x.
...

Kyle is smart and knows quite a lot about this industry but he also often overly simplifies charger failures.

Haha. I loved watching this whole 1.5 hours. Kyle shares some good insider nuggets in there too!

I actually watched it with my Dad on Father's Day. (My Dad is 80 and still wants to buy a Tesla - but I'll nudge him to an i4 instead!) Anyways, I found it fun and informative!!

[moesess34]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

The EU is better at regulating things like that. They forced Tesla to use CCS2.

North America should have also standardized but there is a preference by a lot of people here for not having government interfere/regulate things so they never interfered. In some aspects it makes sense to regulate, and in others it doesn't. I feel this is something that should be. Tesla has already in my mind abused its customers with ridiculous price increases at superchargers. They reeled them in with decent prices, convinced a ton of them that they didn't even need to get home charging, and then once they felt like it, they just increased the prices by a lot (apparently), when the cost of electricity had no such spike in price (not here anyway).

Yep! No thanks. I’m happy I can charge at home. I want no parts of giving Tesla any money as long as Musk owns it.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Sorry but I cannot watch 1.5 hours of Kyle on this topic. His bias is clearly evident. Statements like "will probably use the same communication methods" (~4:10) doesn't inspire confidence that Tesla is following and using ISO-15118-x. I'm sure they do at some level given it's easier to write one stack for the global fleet but I've worked in many companies where open standards were adopted but rewritten to the point where there were interoperability problems. Show me documentation for what Tesla uses for communication.

However, he's right on the reasons Ford and GM as looking at Tesla. He's also right that any car should be able to plug into any other network. Today NACS cars can plug into CCS chargers but the inverse is not possible -- why?

If you follow CharIN, you'll hear how interoperability is the biggest challenge CPOs and manufactures have. I'm not sure I fully agree with this but assuming that's true, how will having NACS, GBT, and CCS2 help improve reliability even assuming NACS becomes an open standard? Another comical Kyle quote "just make NACS the standard. It's easy" The reality here is that the it's up to Tesla to make NACS an open standard. It's not for Ford or anyone else to make it the standard.

Kyle is smart and knows quite a lot about this industry but he also often overly simplifies charger failures. Anyone in the cloud computing industry will tell you that hardware fails. The question is how and when and what do you do about it. Solving reliability problems by deploying new hardware is often a path to failure if you don't address the failure modes and response to failures.

I think you meant to quote someone else, not me. I have watched a lot of out of spec content but some videos are just way too long. I am not watching the one linked above.

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by Bmwno6

So after Ford, GM and now Rivian changing to the Tesla EV chargers and standard, I wander what will happen with BMW ?

My prediction is they are up in arms because they already made the decision to abandon further iDrive 8 / MGU4 development, but now have to reconsider because Supercharger access can't happen without it.

Even if/when BMW caves, they're not likely to develop a "find/navigate to" Supercharger integration that is remotely in any way nearly as slick as it is in recent versions of Tesla software. I've given up hope they could write code to resemble anything even close to the Tesla UI even when the examples of how it should work are right in front of them.

Of the Germans, I predict Mercedes Benz will probably be the first to announce NACS/Supercharger support. I seem to recall that some Audi's already have dual charging ports, so it would seem logical they could swap one of them for a NACS port. But then I hear VW is just as bad if not worse at software than BMW.

[JonoNZ]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Sorry but I cannot watch 1.5 hours of Kyle on this topic. His bias is clearly evident.

I love Kyle and watch so much of his content but some of the analysis on this topic, especially in the early days on the InsideEVs podcast, was pretty superficial tbh. I expected a more detailed conversation about high voltage, V2L, impact on CCS car sales, residuals, etc, but it was completely missing from the conversation even though these were obvious questions and implications right after Ford announced their move.

Another thing to remember is that any YouTube content that mentions Tesla tends to do quite well, so let's just say they don't mind if there is plenty of Tesla news, buy a Tesla here and there and create some content with it. I really like Kyle and his content is some of the best, but he has bit of a dog in the hunt on this too.

[sor]

I thought BMW was pretty decent at the software thing, the app nearly always works for me, never once had an issue with digital key.

Sure people complain about conservative and random OTA application. I’ve heard of people needing to reboot iDrive, and there have been recalls, so I guess YMMV.

Maybe between Polestar and Audi (where even basic stuff just malfunctions regularly) I’ve just got a pretty low bar, but with BMW really haven’t had much to complain about all things considered, all of the important stuff generally works and is predictably reliable.

[Xyz$123]

Originally Posted by FultonMDUSA

I can't see reason why competition won't happen the old fashioned way, like with gas stations.

Sell franchises. More convenient locations charge more. Less convenient locations discount rates to attract customers. Locations earn more money from convenience store sales than selling fuel (electricity) itself.

As for something unique, higher speed chargers can charge more per kWh than slower chargers. Likewise, higher rates apply during peak times (something we already see at superchargers). Offer 10 kWh free with any $10 purchase at the convenience store.

Lots of possibilities. And I really don't think the rest of the world realizes how much easier it is to handle a NACS connector. They will eventually learn when they visit NA and rent NACS EVs. And then maybe realize why the entire CCSx plug is just ridiculous with so many unnecessary contacts.

Amen! The free market is really good at sorting things like this out if allowed to work.