[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by FCX5

The iX had no other real competitor from what I recall…

Honestly, it still doesn't... The M-B is stupidly expensive for the performance. Audi lacks both performance and range. GM is a dumpster fire. Lucid just introduced an SUV. Rivian is big, expensive, and no Car Play. Genesis is short on range. The Japanese brands aren't even trying. The Model X is a niche thing that lacks a lot of luxury niceties.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Honestly, it still doesn't... The M-B is stupidly expensive for the performance. Audi lacks both performance and range. GM is a dumpster fire. Lucid just introduced an SUV. Rivian is big, expensive, and no Car Play. Genesis is short on range. The Japanese brands aren't even trying. The Model X is a niche thing that lacks a lot of luxury niceties.

How is GM a dumpster fire? I'd say they are doing more in the EV space than even Tesla. They have more models than anyone, and the Equinox EV has gotten rave reviews for offering 300 miles of range for under $40k. The Chevy Blazer EV is one of the hottest looking SUVs on the market right now and I see tons of them.

As far as Carplay goes, we should all be prepared to kiss it goodbye given what poor support it has received from Apple, itself. It doesn't seem like this is a product that Apple even wants to promote. Nobody else wants it, either, given how few are offering it in their new models.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

How is GM a dumpster fire? I'd say they are doing more in the EV space than even Tesla. They have more models than anyone, and the Equinox EV has gotten rave reviews for offering 300 miles of range for under $40k. The Chevy Blazer EV is one of the hottest looking SUVs on the market right now and I see tons of them.

I was following GM and Cadillac forums for well over a year while on the wait list for a Cadillac Lyriq. And I periodically check back in because I am curious about a Lyriq V as a possible next car after the iX. GM has a great strategy with many products across multiple brands. But it is almost 2 years behind schedule carrying out that strategy, and...

• GM has severe software challenges that are still not stabilized after 3 model years. These are not mere inconveniences, these are things like automated emergency backup braking that you have to disable to use the car. Then annoying stuff like false severe system errors, settings reset, audio mutes, etc. Oh, and 12V charging issues are still bricking some cars. They were bricking lots of cars a year ago, so that is better. Owners have to carry a 10mm wrench and jump starter to restore their cars.
• ANC system whine that makes driving very uncomfortable.
• They just started doing OTAs, but they are bug fixes and no enhancements. Many software fixes still require a dealer software visit to update.
• Cadillac de-contented several table-stakes features because of other general delivery problems: HUD, phone-as-a-key, HD Radio, surround recording (surround view came like 1.5 years late), etc. Some of these features are starting to show up in some current GM BEV models.
• Cadillac restricted torque and acceleration for US-market cars. Then offered it back as a "Velocity Mode" software purchase. But then pulled that back because of incompatibility with software updates, screwing lots of people and frustrating many more.
• Their top-tier AKG audio system is a turd and well below BMW's Harmon Kardon systems (probably closer to BMW base systems).
• Their Ultium charge curves are a hellscape that drop to ~50 kW at around 50% - 60% SoC for a lot of people.
• Dealers are under-trained, and cars often spend weeks at dealers to resolve the many minor issues.
• Lots of basic hardware design failures, like HVAC sucks (cannot aim vents up, inadequate in hot regions, etc.), Qi charging unreliable, charge door problems, interior compartment doors inop, heat pump noise, leaking tail lights, drooping head lights, non-functional interior display dimming (too dark to see in daytime), etc.
• Super Cruise is good looking on paper, but it sucks in real life compared to hands-off systems like BMW's.

This just a quick list from memory, but there are more issues. If a car does not have any of the common problems, they are really nice. But if you get a stinker, it is a terrible experience. GM will eventually stabilize, but they are a long way away from that.

I helped my son-in-law get an Equinox EV, and it is an incredible value. He got a good one without software issues he is aware of, so he really likes it.

The irony of GM and phone projection is that they will continue to support it for their fleet sales vehicles. So, they are adding in a software complexity layer to block it from retail customers. Phone projection continues to be an important decision criteria for like 80% of all US vehicle purchases. The only automakers I know of not offering CarPlay/AA on new cars are Rivian, Tesla, and GM. The others have doubled-down on future support.

[chicagofan00]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

As far as Carplay goes, we should all be prepared to kiss it goodbye given what poor support it has received from Apple, itself. It doesn't seem like this is a product that Apple even wants to promote. Nobody else wants it, either, given how few are offering it in their new models.

I think this comes down to the fact that the auto manufacturers keep pushing back as to what they will allow CarPlay to do. The updates to CarPlay that Apple showed off over a year ago looked great and provided a ton more capability and customization but none of the automakers really wanted to turn over that much control to Apple. Looks at GM not even allowing CarPlay as an option in their new EVs because they want to control the whole thing with their proprietary UI instead of giving the consumers the flexibility to choose what they want.

🤷🏻‍♂️

[thebishman]

Originally Posted by chicagofan00

I think this comes down to the fact that the auto manufacturers keep pushing back as to what they will allow CarPlay to do. The updates to CarPlay that Apple showed off over a year ago looked great and provided a ton more capability and customization but none of the automakers really wanted to turn over that much control to Apple. Looks at GM not even allowing CarPlay as an option in their new EVs because they want to control the whole thing with their proprietary UI instead of giving the consumers the flexibility to choose what they want.

🤷🏻‍♂️

And GM’s, along with Rivian and Tesla’s, decision to not offer ACP/AA is 100% about trying to further monitize the ‘driving experience’ for owners; it’s got nothing to do any complexity added by phone mirroring. Rivian’s sales are stalling given the price of the R1S/R1T; they can’t wait until the R2 is deployed. But they’re missing thousands upon thousands of sales I’d wager because of their bone headed decision not to allow an owner the option to use ACP.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I was following GM and Cadillac forums for well over a year while on the wait list for a Cadillac Lyriq. And I periodically check back in because I am curious about a Lyriq V as a possible next car after the iX. GM has a great strategy with many products across multiple brands. But it is almost 2 years behind schedule carrying out that strategy, and...

• GM has severe software challenges that are still not stabilized after 3 model years. These are not mere inconveniences, these are things like automated emergency backup braking that you have to disable to use the car. Then annoying stuff like false severe system errors, settings reset, audio mutes, etc. Oh, and 12V charging issues are still bricking some cars. They were bricking lots of cars a year ago, so that is better. Owners have to carry a 10mm wrench and jump starter to restore their cars.
• ANC system whine that makes driving very uncomfortable.
• They just started doing OTAs, but they are bug fixes and no enhancements. Many software fixes still require a dealer software visit to update.
• Cadillac de-contented several table-stakes features because of other general delivery problems: HUD, phone-as-a-key, HD Radio, surround recording (surround view came like 1.5 years late), etc. Some of these features are starting to show up in some current GM BEV models.
• Cadillac restricted torque and acceleration for US-market cars. Then offered it back as a "Velocity Mode" software purchase. But then pulled that back because of incompatibility with software updates, screwing lots of people and frustrating many more.
• Their top-tier AKG audio system is a turd and well below BMW's Harmon Kardon systems (probably closer to BMW base systems).
• Their Ultium charge curves are a hellscape that drop to ~50 kW at around 50% - 60% SoC for a lot of people.
• Dealers are under-trained, and cars often spend weeks at dealers to resolve the many minor issues.
• Lots of basic hardware design failures, like HVAC sucks (cannot aim vents up, inadequate in hot regions, etc.), Qi charging unreliable, charge door problems, interior compartment doors inop, heat pump noise, leaking tail lights, drooping head lights, non-functional interior display dimming (too dark to see in daytime), etc.
• Super Cruise is good looking on paper, but it sucks in real life compared to hands-off systems like BMW's.

This just a quick list from memory, but there are more issues. If a car does not have any of the common problems, they are really nice. But if you get a stinker, it is a terrible experience. GM will eventually stabilize, but they are a long way away from that.

I helped my son-in-law get an Equinox EV, and it is an incredible value. He got a good one without software issues he is aware of, so he really likes it.

The irony of GM and phone projection is that they will continue to support it for their fleet sales vehicles. So, they are adding in a software complexity layer to block it from retail customers. Phone projection continues to be an important decision criteria for like 80% of all US vehicle purchases. The only automakers I know of not offering CarPlay/AA on new cars are Rivian, Tesla, and GM. The others have doubled-down on future support.

Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for listing all of that out.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by thebishman

And GM’s, along with Rivian and Tesla’s, decision to not offer ACP/AA is 100% about trying to further monitize the ‘driving experience’ for owners; it’s got nothing to do any complexity added by phone mirroring. Rivian’s sales are stalling given the price of the R1S/R1T; they can’t wait until the R2 is deployed. But they’re missing thousands upon thousands of sales I’d wager because of their bone headed decision not to allow an owner the option to use ACP.

I don't believe that there are that many people not buying Rivians because of CarPlay. Rivian like tesla does almost everything CarPlay does, you still get messages, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, and the built in route planning is integrated with the car so it seamlessly plans your route taking into account your state of charge which CarPlay cant do. Personally I barely use CarPlay.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Honestly, it still doesn't... The M-B is stupidly expensive for the performance. Audi lacks both performance and range. GM is a dumpster fire. Lucid just introduced an SUV. Rivian is big, expensive, and no Car Play. Genesis is short on range. The Japanese brands aren't even trying. The Model X is a niche thing that lacks a lot of luxury niceties.

I mean let's face it the iX is pretty niche too. lol

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

I don't believe that there are that many people not buying Rivians because of CarPlay. Rivian like tesla does almost everything CarPlay does, you still get messages, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, and the built in route planning is integrated with the car so it seamlessly plans your route taking into account your state of charge which CarPlay cant do. Personally I barely use CarPlay.

People who use it a lot swear by it and simply want to keep the same interface no matter the vehicle they are in. I get it to a certain extent.

I personally don't use it. My wife and kids have the option to as well and prefer not to as well.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

People who use it a lot swear by it and simply want to keep the same interface no matter the vehicle they are in. I get it to a certain extent.

I personally don't use it. My wife and kids have the option to as well and prefer not to as well.

It certainly has its fans thats for sure. Personally I was never all that dazzled by it.

[EV Fan]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

People who use it a lot swear by it and simply want to keep the same interface no matter the vehicle they are in. I get it to a certain extent.

I personally don't use it. My wife and kids have the option to as well and prefer not to as well.

As native infotainment systems improve, the user base for CarPlay will get more niche, focused on people who move between cars and manage their business schedule on their iPhone, making calendar integration a beneficial feature.

Maybe there will also be a black market for CarPlay integration as manufacturers move toward the sweet, sweet smell of that subscription cash.

[chicagofan00]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

I don't believe that there are that many people not buying Rivians because of CarPlay. Rivian like tesla does almost everything CarPlay does, you still get messages, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, and the built in route planning is integrated with the car so it seamlessly plans your route taking into account your state of charge which CarPlay cant do. Personally I barely use CarPlay.

Well, if Rivian’s inclusion of messages and Apple Music is the same as Tesla’s it sucks and is definitely lacking. While I don’t feel as though CarPlay is a must have for me, I definitely missed it in my Tesla and happy to have it again after making the switch to an i4.

[thebishman]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

I don't believe that there are that many people not buying Rivians because of CarPlay. Rivian like tesla does almost everything CarPlay does, you still get messages, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, and the built in route planning is integrated with the car so it seamlessly plans your route taking into account your state of charge which CarPlay cant do. Personally I barely use CarPlay.

What is ‘seamless’ is the ability to move from vehicle to vehicle and have the exact same user interface for entertainment without having to faff about trying to learn a new system whose sole purpose is to monetize the ‘experience’ for the owner/driver. Oh, and let’s not kid ourselves that all of the data you share with a proprietary system isn’t being used to track your every movement, whereas when using ACP all of the data you’re using remains within the phone; it is not shared at all with the OEM system.

Rivian is in the business of selling vehicles and right now their sales are slipping. If they wanted to massively expand their customer base to prospective buyers, they should offer the option of being able to use phone projection. But hey, it’s Rivian’s choice to deliberately exclude so many potential buyers; it just seems a poor business decision to me.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by thebishman

Rivian is in the business of selling vehicles and right now their sales are slipping. If they wanted to massively expand their customer base to prospective buyers, they should offer the option of being able to use phone projection. But hey, it’s Rivian’s choice to deliberately exclude so many potential buyers; it just seems a poor business decision to me.

This.

I am open to other cars for my next BEV in a couple years, and Rivian is off the list because of its lack of CarPlay.

I do not use CarPlay often, but when I use it it is because it offers something not available from the car's UX. And in those times, CarPlay is a critical capability for me.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by chicagofan00

Well, if Rivian’s inclusion of messages and Apple Music is the same as Tesla’s it sucks and is definitely lacking. While I don’t feel as though CarPlay is a must have for me, I definitely missed it in my Tesla and happy to have it again after making the switch to an i4.

What's lacking? it all works great. You get messages from your phone and the Apple Music/Podcast interface is great and has been improved several times. I never thought about CarPlay once in my Tesla. And barely even touch it in my BMWs

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by thebishman

What is ‘seamless’ is the ability to move from vehicle to vehicle and have the exact same user interface for entertainment without having to faff about trying to learn a new system whose sole purpose is to monetize the ‘experience’ for the owner/driver. Oh, and let’s not kid ourselves that all of the data you share with a proprietary system isn’t being used to track your every movement, whereas when using ACP all of the data you’re using remains within the phone; it is not shared at all with the OEM system.

Rivian is in the business of selling vehicles and right now their sales are slipping. If they wanted to massively expand their customer base to prospective buyers, they should offer the option of being able to use phone projection. But hey, it’s Rivian’s choice to deliberately exclude so many potential buyers; it just seems a poor business decision to me.

Im not a tin foil hat wearer. If you have a phone you are being tracked period. If you don't like it throw your phone away. Otherwise who cares if they collect data from your car or not. I don't.

Just last summer the Rivian CEO reiterated CarPlay is not happening any time soon if ever. They want to control their own ecosystem. Im sure if they had sales data that CarPlay would significantly boost sales they would integrate it. They have access to their sales data you do not.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/22/2...aringe-decoder

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

Im not a tin foil hat wearer. If you have a phone you are being tracked period. If you don't like it throw your phone away. Otherwise who cares if they collect data from your car or not. I don't.

A few automakers were selling owner driving data to insurance companies to drive insurance rates. A lot of people cared about that.

We are fortunate that BMW only uses AOSP for its operating system. Automakers using AA with GAS are giving away massive quantities of owner data to the lowest bidders. And generally speaking, Apple phone owners give away far less than Android phone owners.

Separate from the Phone Projection discussion, but any car using AA with GAS is almost a deal breaker for me. Those cars require you login to the car with a Google account. Hard nope.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

A few automakers were selling owner driving data to insurance companies to drive insurance rates. A lot of people cared about that.

We are fortunate that BMW only uses AOSP for its operating system. Automakers using AA with GAS are giving away massive quantities of owner data to the lowest bidders. And generally speaking, Apple phone owners give away far less than Android phone owners.

Separate from the Phone Projection discussion, but any car using AA with GAS is almost a deal breaker for me. Those cars require you login to the car with a Google account. Hard nope.

GM quickly stopped doing that after they were caught. And there are phone apps that do the same thing.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/rep...companies.html

Either way we live in a connected society now. No one unless you live off the grid is escaping some data tracking and if you think you are you are fooling yourself.

[ubercruise]

CarPlay definitely isn't a must-have for me, but it's a small detractor if a car is missing it. Sure, I can use the native OS but I prefer the CarPlay interface. Allows me a bit more flexibility usually, there's zero learning curve when getting a new car or letting someone else borrow it. Obviously I haven't tried every native OS out there, but so far I haven't felt like I'm missing a bunch of important functionality by using CarPlay, if anything it's a 1:1 most of the time. The only time I'll ever use the BMW infotainment is to precondition the battery on a road trip automatically, but even that's not strictly necessary. Maybe I'll try using BMW infotainment exclusively for a bit.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

GM quickly stopped doing that after they were caught. And there are phone apps that do the same thing.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/rep...companies.html

Either way we live in a connected society now. No one unless you live off the grid is escaping some data tracking and if you think you are you are fooling yourself.

The key point is control. If you live in an Android world (phone or AA with GAS), you have little to no control over how Google gives away your data. If you live in an Apple world, you have greater control. It may not be perfect, but it is vastly superior to the Android/Google world.

You can always elect not to use apps that pump your driving data to insurers. You cannot control what Google does with your captured drive data.

[Jeff661]

How are you not using CarPlay all the time? I map with google maps as much as with BMWs map and listen exclusively to Spotify which I can control on the display. What are you using if not CarPlay?

[ricerboi]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

People who use it a lot swear by it and simply want to keep the same interface no matter the vehicle they are in. I get it to a certain extent.

I personally don't use it. My wife and kids have the option to as well and prefer not to as well.

My wife and I only use Waze on Carplay as we need to see cops on freeways because we enjoy the acceleration too much. Does Rivian and Tesla have that on their non-Carplay implementations?