[Game]

Much like the G87...this looked much better in camo.

[farishat]

Inspired by Pontiac Aztek design. Amazing! ;-) LOL

[bmwdrive]

Can it have an option for a thin round steering wheel? Just an option for the weird old school people.

Like when someone drives a new Porsche, are there a lot of people complaining that the steering wheel is not square enough or not thick enough?

[mirob]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

It’s so interesting to see the stark difference in comments between the announcement of this M3 and the E92. It is night and day difference the excitement this forum had for the E9x M3 compared to this. It’s sad those days are over. Here’s the link to when the E92 was announced https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50002

I laughed soooo hard at this. The thread you're using as "proof" has 54 comments over a span of two years. Hold the fucking presses. Bimmerpost was in its infancy when the E9X was unveiled and probably wasn't even around for the spy pics. Find some threads from E46Fanatics and M3Forum that show universal praise if you want to prove a point.

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

Not to start the whole G80 type debates again but sales say nothing about a car’s design. This is often repeated in these forums by those defending the G80, XM etc. (Not saying that’s you) A manufacture could design a clown car and with enough hype sell 10’s of thousands. Example Pontiac Aztec, which sold 119,000 before being discontinued. The idea that increasing sales justifies a design is total nonsense. Ferrari sold less than 14,000 cars last year, far less than every major car manufacturer out there, yet no car enthusiast would make the argument that lack of sales says their car designs are poor.

The G80, XM, i3, i4, iX are objectively ugly and uninspiring. Selling a ton of them doesn’t change that fact.

Huh? Pontiac Aztek? Really? That's the point you're making? Did you think selling 120K units over a 5-year span was a success? Their peak year was 2002 with 28K units. Do you know how many Camrys Toyota sold that year? 434K.

Your Ferrari comparison is so out of pocket it doesn't even warrant a reply.

Would love to hear your take on who's buying up all these G8Xs if it isn't enthusiasts. Enlighten us, please.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by farishat

Inspired by Pontiac Aztek design. Amazing! ;-) LOL

Sorry, CyberTruck has dibs on Aztek design.
VDX looks so bland ... it could be any Asian econobox. Though the headlights scream Lincoln.

Take out the roundel, and it could be any car.

[Race_Doc11]

Nope ….not sure who is in charge of BMW design right now.

[OtoPA]

Originally Posted by Race_Doc11

Nope ….not sure who is in charge of BMW design right now.

They couldn't even leave us the diplococci...

[zZnoevZz]

What's with the twin rear waste baskets?

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by mirob

Huh? Pontiac Aztek? Really? That's the point you're making? Did you think selling 120K units over a 5-year span was a success? Their peak year was 2002 with 28K units. Do you know how many Camrys Toyota sold that year? 434K.

Your Ferrari comparison is so out of pocket it doesn't even warrant a reply.

Would love to hear your take on who's buying up all these G8Xs if it isn't enthusiasts. Enlighten us, please.

I know Toyota sells a ton of cars, way more than BMW. So Toyota’s designs are better, right? The argument that sales validate the design isn’t true, and your comment really just helps me prove the point.

I’m good with g80 owners. Not sure what I said that would make you think I don’t see them as enthusiasts. Many new BMW owners have become enthusiasts because of the g80. I think that’s great. My problem is with the design, not the owners.

There are numerous examples in the forums of a more universal acceptance of new (at the time) BMW designs. If you don’t like the one I chose then there others to choose from.

Not sure what issue you had with my post. Your comments seem to be backing up what I said, just in a different way.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

I know Toyota sells a ton of cars, way more than BMW. So Toyota’s designs are better, right? The argument that sales validate the design isn’t true, and your comment really just helps me prove the point.

I’m good with g80 owners. Not sure what I said that would make you think I don’t see them as enthusiasts. Many new BMW owners have become enthusiasts because of the g80. I think that’s great. My problem is with the design, not the owners.

There are numerous examples in the forums of a more universal acceptance of new (at the time) BMW designs. If you don’t like the one I chose then there others to choose from.

Not sure what issue you had with my post. Your comments seem to be backing up what I said, just in a different way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you used the Aztek example to illustrate that even ugly designs sell well. I pointed out that it didn't sell well. I don't see how that makes your point.

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

no car enthusiast would make the argument that lack of sales says their car designs are poor.

Right here. This is gatekeeping. If someone doesn't agree with what you're postulating they're not an enthusiast..or am I misinterpreting this as well?

Look dude, conversations are healthy. You stated a bunch of opinions as facts to which I took exception. Is the G8X polarizing? Absolutely. But someone out there must find it appealing enough to spend money on it since they're selling like hotcakes.

[M3JetPilot]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you used the Aztek example to illustrate that even ugly designs sell well. I pointed out that it didn't sell well. I don't see how that makes your point.

It sold well in relation to most enthusiast type sports cars. But if that isn’t good enough for you then try the Subaru Crosstrek or Kia Sportage, both in the top 25 of cars selling today and ugly as hell. Again, the point still stands, sales volume says nothing about design, especially considering the low production numbers for high end sports cars. Even in the case of the XM, in the top 5 of horrible designs from BMW in the past 30 years, the low sales are likely due to its premium price, not its design. Though I would still argue that had BMW created an iconic design it may have sold more.

Right here. This is gatekeeping. If someone doesn't agree with what you're postulating they're not an enthusiast..or am I misinterpreting this as well?

It’s not gatekeeping, it’s logic. At the low numbers most premium sports cars sell at, saying that sales numbers validates anything is self defeating. In relation to most cars, premium sports cars don’t sell well, even the g80.

Look dude, conversations are healthy. You stated a bunch of opinions as facts to which I took exception. Is the G8X polarizing? Absolutely. But someone out there must find it appealing enough to spend money on it since they're selling like hotcakes.

I agree, conversations are healthy and I like this one. However, the g80 isn’t selling like hotcakes. It’s still less than half the number of Aztek’s sold. By your logic the Aztek was twice as appealing as the g80. I know you don’t accept that argument. Why make it then?

[mirob]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

It sold well in relation to most enthusiast type sports cars. But if that isn’t good enough for you then try the Subaru Crosstrek or Kia Sportage, both in the top 25 of cars selling today and ugly as hell. Again, the point still stands, sales volume says nothing about design, especially considering the low production numbers for high end sports cars. Even in the case of the XM, in the top 5 of horrible designs from BMW in the past 30 years, the low sales are likely due to its premium price, not its design. Though I would still argue that had BMW created an iconic design it may have sold more.

You brought up the Aztek, not me. How does the G8X sell compared to the C63, RS-5, & CT4-V BW? What about the F8X? That's all that matters. Of course a $100K sports sedan won't do the numbers an econo-shitbox a fourth of the price does.

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

It’s not gatekeeping, it’s logic. At the low numbers most premium sports cars sell at, saying that sales numbers validates anything is self defeating. In relation to most cars, premium sports cars don’t sell well, even the g80.

That was the whole point of my post. It's all relative.

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

I agree, conversations are healthy and I like this one. However, the g80 isn’t selling like hotcakes. It’s still less than half the number of Aztek’s sold. By your logic the Aztek was twice as appealing as the g80. I know you don’t accept that argument. Why make it then?

It's selling like hotcakes, my friend. I'm making the point because the Aztek sold like shit in its segment while the G8X is outselling everything in its segment. While the F8X could be had with significant discounts, you still can't get anything off of a G80. There is demand because it's desirable.

[Stealth7]

Small Lincoln and squashmello/smurf fuzzy inside!

[co_440i]

Looks really, really bad. Makes me wonder what you guys who like it are actually seeing in these pictures.

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

Read my post on sales above that demonstrates how invalid that argument is, but saying the 911 is old and dull is a whole other level of nonsense. Do you really think that about Porsche? From one car enthusiast to another it’s just difficult for me to believe you’d rather have new and exciting no matter how ugly it is or how far it departs from a manufacturer’s design legacy. Do you think there is any value in holding on to a design legacy or do you think BMW should always throw away last years designs and start with a clean slate?

And as invalid as your argument or opinion is on design too same here the opinion of few loud ones including certain automotive journalist who usually write their opinion based on what their viewers says you can see this flip flop kinda lot from them. And sales number do the talk especially when it comes to the general population who buys cars so yeah they do talk if the general population mostly chooses a car on it colour and first look then it matters. In best case they would also check stuff like MPG, Reliability and so but again humans and emotions. So in that aspect they hit it right with the G series just not with the forums and again certain journalist whose followers are likely same type of people who uses car forums, So there is that and if they did like it, they probably wouldn’t say it out loud especially not on their channels if that caused them to loose followers.

There is no thing called "Good design" as some people would have it, there is no certain designs that is "Locked" in to say, sense every design of every car can be picked apart easily as long as the overall package looks good then its fine, just as i could pick apart the E92 looks so can people pick apart the G80s and so on and so forth.

My opinion on Porsches 911 design is simple it looked good when it came in 1963 and when you saw that as a child later on it was and is a very nice looking car for that time era, but today i am sorry they do not excite me personally on a design level simple as that but mechanically brilliant cars, hard to find anything that drives like them. Would i say no to a 911 if they gave me one? Nope again as i said brilliant cars, but looks wise kinda dull and sterile in my view.

There is always a certain value in having a legacy, but legacy dosnt determine the future and that is why it is good to shake things up even if it sometimes means loosing some few customers for gaining a lot more, witch in the end is what BMW or any other automotive manufactures goal is to get new customers to increase profits and sales. As always, do you think Porsche would be where they are today if they only kept doing the 911?

This is like with the story of the old gentlemen whose been doing the same work walking the same route to work, until someone showed him a shortcut to work & a different way to his work witch helped the gentlemen to get promoted and get to sleep longer in the morning, simply because he got stuck in his old ways and didn’t see any other ways. So yeah legacy only has a value as long as it doesn’t lock you in.

So yeah the G series debate is over a long time ago but some of you keep posting same things over and over again about it being "ugly" like it means something when it doesn’t an opinion of the few loud ones doesn’t determine what the masses thinks again.

I actually think BMW is doing a smart move when changing up their designs from the core i prefer the new even if sometimes the new for some people doesn’t hit home. I don't like everything BMW does, but i mostly understand why they do the way they do certain stuff.

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by mirob

It's selling like hotcakes, my friend. I'm making the point because the Aztek sold like shit in its segment while the G8X is outselling everything in its segment. While the F8X could be had with significant discounts, you still can't get anything off of a G80. There is demand because it's desirable.

My overall point isn’t dependent on segment but you’re the one who brought up Toyota, that’s why I mentioned the Aztek again. If you want to limit it to sports cars then there are several that out sell M3’s every year. Those better sales take nothing away from the M3. Same if the g80 sold only half of what the F80 sold. For those who like the car I’m sure that wouldn’t lessen the design for them. Wouldn’t you agree the g80 is a great car regardless of the number built?

[mirob]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

My overall point isn’t dependent on segment but you’re the one who brought up Toyota, that’s why I mentioned the Aztek again. If you want to limit it to sports cars then there are several that out sell M3’s every year. Those better sales take nothing away from the M3. Same if the g80 sold only half of what the F80 sold. For those who like the car I’m sure that wouldn’t lessen the design for them. Wouldn’t you agree the g80 is a great car regardless of the number built?

You keep moving the goalposts. The M3 is not a sports car. How well does it sell in it's segment? That's all that matters. If it's that ugly it should sell less than a QV or a CT4-V BW because those cars look and drive better, right? So...either those cars don't drive better OR the G8X is not that ugly - or both. People vote with their wallets and I think the results are in.

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

Wouldn’t you agree the g80 is a great car regardless of the number built?

I would but it also has to look good and I happen to think that it does. I understand that you don't and that's ok. Plenty of people don't. But to say that it only sells based on hype is disingenuous.

Anyhow...no hard feelings. It's ok to not see eye to eye. Design is, and always will be, subjective. Probably shouldn't derail this thread any longer. People are probably sick of our shit anyways.

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by mirob

I would but it also has to look good and I happen to think that it does.

That’s really my only point. If the g80 wasn’t selling as well, you’d still consider it a great car. Sales don’t determine if a car is great. I think we see eye to eye on this more than we may think.

But to bring this full circle, if the VDX was released as is, would you consider
It a great design, and if it also was exciting to drive, would you buy one? Are you disappointed that the g80 design won’t get a second generation?

[mirob]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

That’s really my only point. If the g80 wasn’t selling as well, you’d still consider it a great car. Sales don’t determine if a car is great. I think we see eye to eye on this more than we may think.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

But to bring this full circle, if the VDX was released as is, would you consider
It a great design, and if it also was exciting to drive, would you buy one?

Disregarding the drivetrain and purely based on design. Yeah, I think so. I don't know that I would call it great design but I really like the proportions. It does have some short-comings. To me it's even more of a departure from the "classic" BMW design but that doesn't bother me...as you know. As is though, with the drivetrain, IDK. I haven't bought into the whole BEV thing, yet. I am excited to see what it can do though. As things stand right now, I'm waiting to see what the other M3 (mild hybrid) will bring to the table…assuming the VDX is the electric version of the M3.

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

Are you disappointed that the g80 design won’t get a second generation?

That's a great question. Yes and no. I was curious to see where this direction would take them...alas, doesn't seem like I'll get to see that. On the other hand, this will make the G80 really unique as the last pure ICE M3 - avant-garde design and all.

The next M3 is the G84 and that's not too far off from G80...maybe we get a part deux. Who knows...

What about you? How do you feel about the future/VDX?

[hb]

Originally Posted by mirob

Agreed.



Disregarding the drivetrain and purely based on design. Yeah, I think so. I don't know that I would call it great design but I really like the proportions. It does have some short-comings. To me it's even more of a departure from the "classic" BMW design but that doesn't bother me...as you know. As is though, with the drivetrain, IDK. I haven't bought into the whole BEV thing, yet. I am excited to see what it can do though. As things stand right now, I'm waiting to see what the other M3 (mild hybrid) will bring to the table…assuming the VDX is the electric version of the M3.



That's a great question. Yes and no. I was curious to see where this direction would take them...alas, doesn't seem like I'll get to see that. On the other hand, this will make the G80 really unique as the last pure ICE M3 - avant-garde design and all.

The next M3 is the G84 and that's not too far off from G80...maybe we get a part deux. Who knows...

What about you? How do you feel about the future/VDX?

VDX is not the electric version of the M3

[advantage20]

+

+

=

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by mirob

What about you? How do you feel about the future/VDX?

Honestly I’m not sure. I really want to like it. I would really appreciate a design mostly loved by the enthusiast community. This hobby is way more fun that way. My hope at this point is this design continues to get tweaked and l’ll love the result. I’m wait and see at this point.

I don’t know why BMW insists on making this so difficult. The elements of an awesome M car seem obvious. If the next M3 looked something like these would it really be a negative?