[JK479]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Buddy, seriously get a grip. 99% of the time you charge AT HOME. By the team you need to take your first road trip and actually use a DC fast charger, there will be 50 more DC fast chargers in your area.

More feelings here than FACTS. You don’t travel much for work… at all. Or put serious miles on cars.

[ilya4min]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

Is it not our brilliant government leaders forcing car manufacturers to pump out millions of EV without a power infrastructure in place though? Perhaps they should step up with a plan. But then we the taxpayers regardless of what we are driving would shoulder the financial burden you say? I’m not buying an EV until Ithey give me no choice but I’d rather see them spend my money on that than the hundreds of billions they waste on ridiculous political agenda’s that do more harm than good. .

FWIW, the last round of EV manufacturing mandates and requirements came together with EV charging network subsidies as well. Those subsidies are what’s motivated Elon to hustle with NACS and what motivated this group to get together. As you can see, they didn’t announce anything in Europe, despite being forced to make EVs there as well.

I’m just glad the hydrogen push is over for now, that was clearly driven by the oil lobby, and was such a waste of money.

[ArchJR]

Originally Posted by VirtualGuitars

The fact that EV makers did not get together and come up with a common, global standard is just ridiculous. It’s like we’re repeating the many current electricity standards and having to have an adapter to charge to your phone in every country you visit. #MassiveFailh

This is VHS vs. BetaMax or BluRay vs. HD DVD all over again. The end of those stories was the explosion of new, universal digital technologies that made the hardware battles irrelevant. This is not the same as media formats, but ultimately the best solution for the most consumers will prevail. Hopefully with any Federal oversight, crossover between this new network and the Supercharger network will be compulsory.

The product - electricity - is a common denominator. Changing adapters and software for different brands is not insurmountable. This is evident with brand like Polestar, which will launch Supercharger compatibility for new 2024 models and adapters for older models.

[ilya4min]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

So the EA strategy failed, and I’m not hopeful this conglomerate working together will be successful either. This reveals the seriousness of the problem Tesla has created for both demand for EVs from “Non-tesla” automakers and their inability to realize the potential services revenue.

EA strategy is to use government subsidies to fund construction, and cash in on the 2-year perk package to EV manufacturers. That part has succeeded. They don’t have any incentive to make their chargers work at full speed (or at all) cause all the sessions are free, and more reliability means more electricity cost for them.

With this new venture, it’s clear that they’ll lose a good chunk of their perk package cost as BMW and others transition to include their own service. They’ll likely get acquired by one of the larger players in the end, maybe this very venture.

Now that Tesla and non-Tesla EVs have a path for converging infrastructure, business fundamentals are there for this kind of project to succeed, or at least not fall on its face. Of course competition with Tesla won’t be easy, as they already have a well-oiled machine to build new superchargers, but Elon doesn’t have unlimited funds. If this project can create a new paradigm of charging stations that reimagines the concept of a gas station, that’ll have high chances to succeed. Especially if they move faster than Shell and BP’s efforts to retrofit actual gas stations with chargers.

[Vintech]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I don't think we are getting to a global standard any time soon. Most folks don't realize that we already have multiple standards in plan, and some of those are unlikely to change any time soon.

Europe = CCS 2
China = GB/T
Japan = CHAdeMO
United States = NACS (de-facto) with a J1772/CCS 1 remnant.
Canada = TBD, could stay with CCS 1 or follow US to NACS

Most cars are already architected so that they can accommodate whatever plug is appropriate for the market.

Exxxviii is spot on in these posts

I don’t think we’re getting a global standard soon, but there is tremendous value in it. It would lower the cost for car manufactures, and lower the cost for EVSE makers. Hopefully making EVs slightly cheaper and chargers as well.

That being said, there is a battle for North America right now and what connector to use going forward. Tesla is pushing for their NACS connector, while everyone else was pushing CCS. I was excited to see that Ford and GM partnered with Tesla, to hopefully push the NACS connector as a standard. But now this moved by the other auto makers, makes me question if that can happen I love how GM is playing both sides of the fence.

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by SGiXers

LOL. Me too. One for memories and old time sakes.

You didn't show us how much it costs to fill up in Singapore.

[GOLFFRR]

Originally Posted by nd.point

Hopefully as fast, but hopefully not as expensive. It's gotten up there in the past 2 years.

really? I have a tesla I have been using for a little while and its super cheap to charge at the SC stations. I usually can fill up 85% full and its like 10-15$? the most I have ever paid was 21$. When I drive ixm60 and charge that its like 30-50$ at the non tesla SC stations and usually takes me 30-45min every time

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

EVs in the US are about 7% of the total automotive market, so a tiny 20% of that 7% proves not my point. EVs won’t become the norm until public charging is close to as time efficient as refueling ICE.

So this is my recollection of how time efficient refueling my ICE vehicle was. Long commute each day, in rush hour traffic. Granted, I would pass about a dozen gas stations along my route. And most of them would have no lines. The problem is, when you pass by a dozen gas stations every day, you remember prices. There's not a good reason why I'd want to fill up an empty tank with premium gas at a station that doesn't have competitive pricing. And so, whenever my low fuel light came on, I ended up at the lower priced station that usually had lines, especially during rush hour. Unfortunately, that station was on my route *to* work. Which means that if I was already running late, I'd have to instead catch it on the way home. But that in itself presented another issue, as it was on the wrong side of a divided road with very busy intersections. So just making the U-turn in both directions, add 10 minutes. Then add the lines. Finally the extra long time it took to fill up an empty tank.

If I could make it through the week without needing to fill up, then I could instead wait to fill up at my weekly Costco run. But as anyone who's experienced this can tell you, that's no time saver either!

For the vast majority of use cases, the true time saver is being able to charge at home.

[Luminor513]

This is certainly nice PR for the future of EV growth. Reality of these things is they take much longer to turn into reality, and more important than even building a charging infrastructure/network, is MAINTAINING IT. This is evident with how Tesla maintains their charging network vs Electrify America. I’m all for universal connector standards, at least here in North America, and I’m all for expanding EV adoption. For daily commutes, living with an EV is fairly straightforward as almost everyone (not everyone) has access to L2 chargers for home charging. Road trips are a whole different animal and EV’s are nowhere near comparable to ICE. Even if every charging station was reliably functioning, it’s nowhere near the millions of gas stations across the US, particularly in rural areas. If they built half a million reliable EV charging stations, then we can debate. 30k charging stations is nice addition, but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to fueling station infrastructure for ICE. Road tripping, particularly in the vast rural areas of the US, is still owned by ICE for the forseable future.

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by Luminor513

Even if every charging station was reliably functioning, it’s nowhere near the millions of gas stations across the US, particularly in rural areas. If they built half a million reliable EV charging stations, then we can debate. 30k charging stations is nice addition, but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to fueling station infrastructure for ICE. Road tripping, particularly in the vast rural areas of the US, is still owned by ICE for the forseable future.

https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-...e-station-faqs

The NACS, the association for convenience and fuel retailing, reports that there are more than 145,000 fueling stations across the United States. 127,588 of these stations are convenience stores selling fuel. The rest are gas-only stations, grocery stores selling fuel, marinas, etc.

[cfm56d7b]

Hopefully, the availability of charging stations with standard connectors will be sorted out when the first EVs with solid state batteries will become available.

Until then … will continue to read and observe.

[AAvKK]

Originally Posted by BMWEVGuy

So does this mean that BMW can tell it's customers to wait for years and not join NACS as others like Mercedes have already done.

Or will it let it's customers enjoy seamless charging at a Tesla Supercharger by entering into some agreement with Musk while this new network becomes viable option.

This 100%. I just bought an IX speculating that BMW would commit to this bridge solution similar to Rivian and Mercedes. I really hope I'm right because my wife really wants to road trip from our home in Charleston, SC out to Denver and the surrounding parks next Summer. The thought of pulling into an Electrify America on 3% charge and having them all be unreliable is not a position I want to be in. Especially considering we just bought her a Model 3.

[JMD]

The sooner they start laying 'Copper', the better!

[moesess34]

Originally Posted by AAvKK

This 100%. I just bought an IX speculating that BMW would commit to this bridge solution similar to Rivian and Mercedes. I really hope I'm right because my wife really wants to road trip from our home in Charleston, SC out to Denver and the surrounding parks next Summer. The thought of pulling into an Electrify America on 3% charge and having them all be unreliable is not a position I want to be in. Especially considering we just bought her a Model 3.

I’ve done very long road trips in my Ix and I really didn’t run too problems. A better router planner and plug share are your friend. Also, expect some charges to take a lil longer and stop where there is food and you will be good.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by jmack123

It will be solved mid-2024 when ALL Tesla Superchargers are opened to GM, Volvo, Polestar, Ford etc.
in terms of whether there will be challenges initially - probably. I assume there will be APIs translating from each automaker to the Superchargers at least until 2025 when the NACS plugs are native to these vehicles.
With that said, once the vehicles are built natively with NACS in 2025, the problem is effectively solved.

Will this help my Tesla stock go up? That’s all I care about in this hole EV debacle!! It’s been a cash cow, so hopefully it just keeps on giving🤑🤑

[Barry123]

Where are the oil companies in all this? Are the following they Toyota head-in-sand model?

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by JK479

More feelings here than FACTS. You don’t travel much for work… at all. Or put serious miles on cars.

Explain how what I said isn’t factual? I’ll wait. Show me the % of people who travel more than 200 miles a day for work and would actually need DC fast charging on a regular basis. I’ll wait.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

Good luck trying to force consumer acceptance of such an expensive and utilitarian purchase. These companies still need to build products people actually want to buy.

Fact of the matter is that once ICE vehicles are phased out, we will all have no choice.
And the fact is that successive generations who grow up seeing Teslas and other EVs as the norm won’t give a damn about how “good” your car sounds with catless downpipes. Their dream cars will be the Model S Plaids, Ioniq Ns, Taycan Turbo S etc. Most of the people who rail against EVs are older and stuck in their ways, let’s be real about it.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Luminor513

more important than even building a charging infrastructure/network, is MAINTAINING IT. This is evident with how Tesla maintains their charging network vs Electrify America.

Here's the other little tidbit of truth here that most folks are missing... It makes almost no sense to compare the uptime of CCS 1 stations versus Tesla, because that world is going away fast.

There are like 4x more Teslas on the road in the US compared to all the other CCS 1 cars combined. (It is probably more than that.) DCFC charging stations cost a lot to maintain - CCS 1 is a stupidly expensive design, and the cords alone cost a fortune compared to NACS cords. They have a very high fixed cost and a tiny consumer base, so they are unprofitable.

As soon as the existing networks switch to NACS/J3400, their addressable market massively multiplies. They can all become profitable almost overnight. And then, they have the revenue stream to support the maintenance costs.

This is a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing for the non-Tesla DCFC networks. They built them out with hopes that many CCS cars will come, nobody has manufactured in significant volume. As they move to NACS/J3400, their financial outlooks transform.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

DCFC charging stations cost a lot to maintain - CCS 1 is a stupidly expensive design, and the cords alone cost a fortune compared to NACS cords. They have a very high fixed cost and a tiny consumer base, so they are unprofitable.

As soon as the existing networks switch to NACS/J3400, their addressable market massively multiplies. They can all become profitable almost overnight. And then, they have the revenue stream to support the maintenance costs.

Comparing the cost of design is an interesting angle. How many SC cords/handles today can push more than 250kW or can charge batteries higher than 500v? How many of those SC cords are liquid cooled? What specifically, besides the limitation in power output, allows SC to use non-cooled cords? Don't CCS1 and CCS2 dispensers also have uncooled cords but at lower power limits?

Before anyone mentions v4 SC dispensers, I would like to remind you that we don't have any in the US and that the power output was just announced this week for EU (350kW at 1000v max) which sounds very much like the SK Signet and others out there that support CCS1 and CCS2. Folks like to conflate the plug with the quality of service provided by bad service providers.

800v cars that are able to accept 500A from a dispenser are in our future. The argument here seems to be stuck in 400v platforms and the largest US network of HPC's don't support that currently but the CCS1 network certainly does for the existing 800v cars. We need competition to drive improvements and this news from BMW is very welcome. Now there will be a new set of challenges that will need to be overcome and that's with the current limitation of 500A and I'm willing to bet that liquid cooling will play a major role.

[Quadruple VANOS]

Originally Posted by FultonMDUSA

So this is my recollection of how time efficient refueling my ICE vehicle was. Long commute each day, in rush hour traffic. Granted, I would pass about a dozen gas stations along my route. And most of them would have no lines. The problem is, when you pass by a dozen gas stations every day, you remember prices. There's not a good reason why I'd want to fill up an empty tank with premium gas at a station that doesn't have competitive pricing. And so, whenever my low fuel light came on, I ended up at the lower priced station that usually had lines, especially during rush hour. Unfortunately, that station was on my route *to* work. Which means that if I was already running late, I'd have to instead catch it on the way home. But that in itself presented another issue, as it was on the wrong side of a divided road with very busy intersections. So just making the U-turn in both directions, add 10 minutes. Then add the lines. Finally the extra long time it took to fill up an empty tank.

If I could make it through the week without needing to fill up, then I could instead wait to fill up at my weekly Costco run. But as anyone who's experienced this can tell you, that's no time saver either!

For the vast majority of use cases, the true time saver is being able to charge at home.

Ten minutes for a U turn? Who are you kidding?
It’s almost like at the end of your dramatic post you forgot we’re speaking of people who cannot charge at home.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by sittingmongoose

Oh cool! So I can buy a new i7 today and drive it down to albama from Philly and charge at all the superchargers today??

I’m obviously being vicisious, but my point stands. All of these “solutions” aren’t in place yet. Until they are, it’s still a problem. You can hand wave the problem and say it will be solved in 12 months. We don’t know that. We won’t know that until it’s done.

No problem driving where I need to here in Southern California. I mean theoretically, I could drive 275 miles per day, 100,000 miles per year, without even charging on the road. Everyone has these hypothetical crisis when they drive long/long distances. If I have to put over 600 miles on my car, I would probably rather take a cheap rental car to rack up the miles on for that trip. But 99% of my driving is without any range compromises in my i4.