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      03-22-2020, 11:06 AM   #3411
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
What's the resale market going to be on EV's....your cell phone analogy is excellent. Tesla's (EV's in general) are not bought by car enthusiasts, so like cell phones folks are going to want the new model and I suspect that the interest for used will be less than that of ICE. I'd happily buy a well loved M2 or M4 but have zero interest in buying any used EV out there.
And yet if you compare the resale value on a same year Model S and F8X, the M3/4 has lost a significantly larger percent of its value.

As someone who does his own work, there's no way in hell I'd buy a used F8X-- just pop the hood and imagine doing a belt change. BMW forgot to make cars serviceable in the e9X era, and never figured it out again (has only gotten worse).

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Your math is a bit fuzzy to me. Based on real annual MPG data I keep, I personally drive 45,000 miles per year. 37,300 of those miles are just my commute to work. The other 7,700 are weekend recreational driving. My work commute is 175 miles round trip.

While I don't keep explicit records on the average MPH, when I reset the trip mileage per tank, the average MPH is around 45; it varies depending on traffic congestion, but the number usually is between 40 MPH to 50 MPH. These data are from my 3 BMWs that I daily to work, 5 days a week. So doing all the mathematics, my average trip time per day is 3.46 hours. This is validated by my actual experience based on my length of work day of time at work and commuting, which is a bit over 12 hours per day. So the point is, I have a lot of experience with high annual mileage.

Based on your information, which is 50,000 (family) miles per year in your EV, that's a shit load of driving. If the car is driven 365 days a year, and based on a 45 MPH average, that's 3 hours per day of driving (1,111 hours per year). An average 45 MPH may be a too high number in your case, so going with a lower average MPH makes the case worse. The case being, most cars are not driven 365 days a year, or at least not driven exactly the same way every day for 365 days a year. Yours are "family" miles, which tells me multiple family members are driving the EV through out the day; in my case, I drive my car about 2 hours into work, it's parked for 9 hours or so, then a 1 hr. 45 min. commute home. The 50,000 miles a year on your EV says it is not driven on a daily commute then parked, which I think most people use their daily commuter for. So while you say an EV is doable for a high annual mileage service scenario based on your experience, I just can't get the numbers to work out, if the car is used as a typical person uses their daily commuter.

I've been looking into using an EV for my commute since 2012. In 2012 the only viable EV that had range of over 175 mile per charge was the Model S. Even with the lowest priced version of the Model S at around $75K, the Tesla was nowhere near as affordable in lifecycle cost as an ICE, even a BMW 3-series. Jump to 2018, and the only high-range EVs to make my commute were the Chevy Bolt and Model 3. Both had a approximate 240-mile max range; and that's in near perfect weather. Throw in winter and the car becomes range limited (assuming one can't charge at work - my case, no chargers). In 2020, nothing has really changed. ICE for a lot of people still is the better choice; especially if their family is limited to one or just 2 cars.

And that's really more the point, EVs work great for wealthy multi-car families, that have private home-charging stations. There are a whole lot of people that do not have the ability to have home-charging stations, which makes the high-mileage commute calculations even worse.

I will contend that EV maintenance is a lot less than ICE, but I think you've exaggerated it a bit to make your point. While I'm lucky I'm mechanically inclined to do most all my maintenance/repair and have a shop set up for it, it still isn't as bad as you make it sound. Most people have their car serviced and multi-task at the same time (i.e. drop the car off and pick it up later, or the next day). And the argument about plugging in your EV to recharge and walking away vs. filling up ICE at a gas station is a joke. It takes 5 minutes to fill a 16 - 20 gallon tank; most people do it once a week, so it's not a huge time out of their day. Most people don't drive to and from a gas station to fill up, they fill up while they are out for other reasons; gas stations are so ubiquitous you can fill up almost anywhere at any time. Take one long-distance trip in an EV once a month and have to wait an hour to recharge, and that blows the ICE fill up argument out of the water. 1 hour of recharge is worth 12 ICE recharges.

My 2 cents.
First off, I think you should recognize that a routine 175 mile commute well and truly outside of the norm.

That said, a Model 3 long range could easily do your commute, year round, with a large buffer to spare (your commute is just over half it's range). Assuming you live in MD, you'd be fine in the base model, standard range Model 3-- MD doesn't see temps cold enough that your range would be cut enough to be sub 175 miles.

In the time you've supposedly been looking at EVs (doubtful to me, since you bash them in every thread possible), the price point for an EV that could do your commute has cut in half/by 2/3.. It'll cut in half again in the next year or two, as the VWs and other cheaper options come out. Price per battery capacity has been coming down rapidly, and will continue to do so.

Most people don't go on a long distance, 300+ mile road trip once a month. Most people don't even do that once a year. We've owned the i3 for a year now. I used a public charger once, just to try it out. We've been on one trip in that time that was out of it's range (so we took and ICEV). The vast majority of the time, EVs are more convenient to fill up than ICEVs. With your 175 mile commute, I'd guess you're getting gas every 2-3 days of driving. Not being stuck doing that would be a huge quality of life improvement-- there's just no way to convey that until you experience it for yourself, as right now your entire life has conditioned you to think it's normal/fine.

I think most people, assuming they can charge at home or at work, would be better off with an EV in a one car fleet. If you have two cars/spouse with a car, having one of them be an EV is a no brainer. Our EV gets used by whoever is driving more in a given day, or any evening errands by either of us, and on any trip that both of us are going on. E.g. the default position is always put as many miles on the EV as possible, and any leftover miles go on one of the ICEVs.

The list of car projects was not a dramatization-- I just copied and pasted it out of the notes app on my phone, as it's my quarantine project list. After I post this I'm going to back the M3 wagon off the list and put the M5 on... and dig in.
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      03-22-2020, 11:26 AM   #3412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
And yet if you compare the resale value on a same year Model S and F8X, the M3/4 has lost a significantly larger percent of its value.

As someone who does his own work, there's no way in hell I'd buy a used F8X-- just pop the hood and imagine doing a belt change. BMW forgot to make cars serviceable in the e9X era, and never figured it out again (has only gotten worse).



First off, I think you should recognize that a routine 175 mile commute well and truly outside of the norm.

That said, a Model 3 long range could easily do your commute, year round, with a large buffer to spare (your commute is just over half it's range). Assuming you live in MD, you'd be fine in the base model, standard range Model 3-- MD doesn't see temps cold enough that your range would be cut enough to be sub 175 miles.

In the time you've supposedly been looking at EVs (doubtful to me, since you bash them in every thread possible), the price point for an EV that could do your commute has cut in half/by 2/3.. It'll cut in half again in the next year or two, as the VWs and other cheaper options come out. Price per battery capacity has been coming down rapidly, and will continue to do so.

Most people don't go on a long distance, 300+ mile road trip once a month. Most people don't even do that once a year. We've owned the i3 for a year now. I used a public charger once, just to try it out. We've been on one trip in that time that was out of it's range (so we took and ICEV). The vast majority of the time, EVs are more convenient to fill up than ICEVs. With your 175 mile commute, I'd guess you're getting gas every 2-3 days of driving. Not being stuck doing that would be a huge quality of life improvement-- there's just no way to convey that until you experience it for yourself, as right now your entire life has conditioned you to think it's normal/fine.

I think most people, assuming they can charge at home or at work, would be better off with an EV in a one car fleet. If you have two cars/spouse with a car, having one of them be an EV is a no brainer. Our EV gets used by whoever is driving more in a given day, or any evening errands by either of us, and on any trip that both of us are going on. E.g. the default position is always put as many miles on the EV as possible, and any leftover miles go on one of the ICEVs.

The list of car projects was not a dramatization-- I just copied and pasted it out of the notes app on my phone, as it's my quarantine project list. After I post this I'm going to back the M3 wagon off the list and put the M5 on... and dig in.
^ your assuming the battery range remain the same during the life of the car. Which it doesn't, most battery lose 20-40% of it charge comparability within 2 years.

While ICE loses 5% of it power in 10 years.

And ICE rebuild to regain that power is way cheaper then an EV battery replacement.
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      03-22-2020, 12:14 PM   #3413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
opps accidentally pressed appreciate instead of reply to your post

but seriously i wouldn't want to be seen inside the butt ugly tesla that looks like a frog spawn or be associated with the image a tesla driver conjures.
I thought we were talking here about technical or business issues, not personal image problems.
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      03-22-2020, 12:28 PM   #3414
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
^ your assuming the battery range remain the same during the life of the car. Which it doesn't, most battery lose 20-40% of it charge comparability within 2 years.
This is patently false. Plenty of Teslas with 200K+ by now - a typical loss at that mileage has been shown to be closer to 10%.
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      03-22-2020, 12:33 PM   #3415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
opps accidentally pressed appreciate instead of reply to your post

but seriously i wouldn't want to be seen inside the butt ugly tesla that looks like a frog spawn or be associated with the image a tesla driver conjures.
I thought we were talking here about technical or business issues, not personal image problems.
oh its ugliness is indeed quite technical. and yes the new bmw grills are also ugly. Thats why im happy with my f series x5 and 335d's
ive got no enemity to electric but i like to own cars outright like i do now and for a variety of reasons cannot do that with electric.
ive sat inside my friends who have a model 3 and model s and it is not a nice place to be compared to my cars.
besides in cold rainy Glasgow its infinitely easier to nip down to sheltered gas stations once a week.
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      03-22-2020, 12:40 PM   #3416
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1. 175 mile commute is bonkers. There is no money in the world that would make me waste 3 hours of my day five days a week driving a car that actually needs to be driven.

2. That said, this is the perfect lifestyle for an EV. I wouldn't go for the shortest range Model 3 but any other version of Model 3 or any other Tesla will happily do 175 miles between charges with plenty to spare to avoid range anxiety, in even the coldest weather, never mind the typical winter temperatures in MD. Gas station stops every other day - gone. Oil changes every six weeks (unless you don't love your car and follow the stupid 15K interval recommendation) - gone. And don't forget the autopilot which by now has become a truly useful device for reducing fatigue on long trips.
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      03-22-2020, 12:44 PM   #3417
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Not a fan of Tesla. However, the straight line acceleration is very impressive.
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      03-22-2020, 01:15 PM   #3418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
1. 175 mile commute is bonkers. There is no money in the world that would make me waste 3 hours of my day five days a week driving a car that actually needs to be driven.

2. That said, this is the perfect lifestyle for an EV. I wouldn't go for the shortest range Model 3 but any other version of Model 3 or any other Tesla will happily do 175 miles between charges with plenty to spare to avoid range anxiety, in even the coldest weather, never mind the typical winter temperatures in MD. Gas station stops every other day - gone. Oil changes every six weeks (unless you don't love your car and follow the stupid 15K interval recommendation) - gone. And don't forget the autopilot which by now has become a truly useful device for reducing fatigue on long trips.
If I want auto pilot i would ride on a bus
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      03-22-2020, 01:17 PM   #3419
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If I want auto pilot i would ride on a bus
Hello our friend from 2019.
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      03-22-2020, 01:23 PM   #3420
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
This is patently false. Plenty of Teslas with 200K+ by now - a typical loss at that mileage has been shown to be closer to 10%.
https://electrek.co/2019/10/04/tesla...igation-nhtsa/

that 15% just on this chart.
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      03-22-2020, 01:32 PM   #3421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
1. 175 mile commute is bonkers. There is no money in the world that would make me waste 3 hours of my day five days a week driving a car that actually needs to be driven.

2. That said, this is the perfect lifestyle for an EV. I wouldn't go for the shortest range Model 3 but any other version of Model 3 or any other Tesla will happily do 175 miles between charges with plenty to spare to avoid range anxiety, in even the coldest weather, never mind the typical winter temperatures in MD. Gas station stops every other day - gone. Oil changes every six weeks (unless you don't love your car and follow the stupid 15K interval recommendation) - gone. And don't forget the autopilot which by now has become a truly useful device for reducing fatigue on long trips.
Well, it's about 83 miles one way to be accurate, but I usually run an errand on the way in or home, which makes the total commute about 175 in round numbers. There are numerous people that work in the DMV (DC, Maryland, Virginia) that have 2-hour commutes for just 30 mile trips. I live West of DC in the Shenandoah park on 40 acres of woods, on a mountain, braced by a river in a 175 - 250 year old house (depends on what section of it) that partly is a real log cabin (think "adze") built in the mid-to-late 1700s. I actually get to drive on really excellent roads every day in a car meant to be driven (I've discussed my commute many times on this Forum). Yeah, you too would make the commute, trust me.

I do actually love my car and did follow the CBS OCI until it stopped working (a thread by me you can find on the internet). I like my car so much I've added two other BMWs to spread the mileage over, just to save the E90.

The 300+ range Model 3 comes only in AWD, which adds cost, weight, and complexity to the drivetrain that I find unnecessary. I don't need AWD. A long range dual motor Model 3 with self-driving (misnomer) is $58K, or $52K after 6-years of fuel savings. Sorry, but I'd get a Honda Accord Sport with a manual trans and have $30,000 to spend on fuel. The Accord is a way nicer car than the Model 3. Yes, I've been in a Model 3 several times for periods up to an hour. The ride sucks, road noise is terrible (it is no more quiet inside than my well-worn 3-Series), the rear seat sucks, and I'd rip out the TV monitor after a week. And it looks better driving backwards (if my dog had a face like that, I'd train it to walk backwards...).

The main issue I have with the Model 3 is the screen can't be turned off. 99.999% of the time I know where I'm going, so I don't need a fucking map on to distract me while driving. And yeah, I've seen the auto pilot in action, it can't drive worth shit. Throw inclement weather and road construction at it and it gives up. And the fetch mode is a laugh. My colleague at work demonstrated his car with me, and it gave up; it was 50 feet from us - LOL. $7K for a system that doesn't really work in all situations, no thanks. Techies love it, and I understand why. I don't like the car.

The Ford e-Stang is going to be offered with 300 miles in a RWD version for about $45K. It has real gauges and hopefully the Model S inspired TV screen can be turned off.
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      03-22-2020, 01:42 PM   #3422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
^ your assuming the battery range remain the same during the life of the car. Which it doesn't, most battery lose 20-40% of it charge comparability within 2 years.

While ICE loses 5% of it power in 10 years.

And ICE rebuild to regain that power is way cheaper then an EV battery replacement.
Lol. I think you have no idea what you're talking about

The only car that suffers significant battery degradation is the Nissan leaf, because they didn't put any thermal management on the battery. The link you posted has nothing to do with degradation-- it was a software update that reduced capacity. Which, btw, was the only such time such a thing has occurred in all of EVs, and didn't effect all cars it was installed on that way.

Or, put another way-- my EV is now 3 years old and has 60,000+ miles on it, and has no measurable degradation (you can do a cluster battery capacity test at any time).

Or, put another way, every EV has a warranty that guarantees 70-80% (depending on the brand) battery capacity for 8 years/100,000-120,000 miles. People being able to take advantage of that warranty almost never occurs, and when it does is likely the result of faulty components (being that it's an outlier case)-- not degradation.

And you're comparing horsepower output to battery capacity, which are... not a meaningful comparison. You'd be better suited saying something like, "EVs don't lose horsepower over time like ICEVs do" or "ICEV gas tanks don't decrease in capacity like EV batteries do over time". Comparing engine output to battery capacity is just... meaningless.

Your posts are so consistently ill informed that I keep wondering if you're actually just trolling, and don't actually believe what you're saying.
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      03-22-2020, 01:51 PM   #3423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
And yet if you compare the resale value on a same year Model S and F8X, the M3/4 has lost a significantly larger percent of its value.

As someone who does his own work, there's no way in hell I'd buy a used F8X-- just pop the hood and imagine doing a belt change. BMW forgot to make cars serviceable in the e9X era, and never figured it out again (has only gotten worse).



First off, I think you should recognize that a routine 175 mile commute well and truly outside of the norm.

That said, a Model 3 long range could easily do your commute, year round, with a large buffer to spare (your commute is just over half it's range). Assuming you live in MD, you'd be fine in the base model, standard range Model 3-- MD doesn't see temps cold enough that your range would be cut enough to be sub 175 miles.

In the time you've supposedly been looking at EVs (doubtful to me, since you bash them in every thread possible), the price point for an EV that could do your commute has cut in half/by 2/3.. It'll cut in half again in the next year or two, as the VWs and other cheaper options come out. Price per battery capacity has been coming down rapidly, and will continue to do so.

Most people don't go on a long distance, 300+ mile road trip once a month. Most people don't even do that once a year. We've owned the i3 for a year now. I used a public charger once, just to try it out. We've been on one trip in that time that was out of it's range (so we took and ICEV). The vast majority of the time, EVs are more convenient to fill up than ICEVs. With your 175 mile commute, I'd guess you're getting gas every 2-3 days of driving. Not being stuck doing that would be a huge quality of life improvement-- there's just no way to convey that until you experience it for yourself, as right now your entire life has conditioned you to think it's normal/fine.

I think most people, assuming they can charge at home or at work, would be better off with an EV in a one car fleet. If you have two cars/spouse with a car, having one of them be an EV is a no brainer. Our EV gets used by whoever is driving more in a given day, or any evening errands by either of us, and on any trip that both of us are going on. E.g. the default position is always put as many miles on the EV as possible, and any leftover miles go on one of the ICEVs.

The list of car projects was not a dramatization-- I just copied and pasted it out of the notes app on my phone, as it's my quarantine project list. After I post this I'm going to back the M3 wagon off the list and put the M5 on... and dig in.
So... no, I actually have been looking at EVs since 2012. I've run numerous spreadsheets on trying to justify lifecycle cost (see below - note the "created date"). No EV up to this point in 2020, is cheaper in lifecycle cost than an ICE for my specific needs. One concern I have is battery health for an EV with my commute. Full depletion and recharge cycles on a daily basis is, from my research, leads to shorter battery life.

I don't bash EV's in every thread. I think using an electric drivetrain is far more efficient for conserving energy because the idle fuel consumption is low and the heat loss is very low compared to ICE. But the battery storage is nowhere near carbon-based fuel. I've stated many times on this Forum we as a society should R&D to increase fuel conversion efficiency for ICE. And as I've also stated, because of my father, we were an early adopter of the GE Electrac, an electric garden tractor sold by GE in 1971- 1973. So I get the charge at home deal and advantages of the electric vehicle. Oh and I have an electric golf cart too.

Yes, I do recognize my commute is not normal; I didn't claim it was, nor is yours. I used my commute to qualify my experience of being one who drives a lot. And based on my experience, I just can't see how you drive an i3 with 120 mile range (? not sure which one you own) 50,000 miles a year unless it is on a cord every time is not moving. Driving it short distances several times a day and recharging the battery in between is nearly impossible to rack up 50,000 miles in a year. The point I was making is my commute takes up a decent amount of time and the best I can do is 37,000 miles a year and work a full-time job.
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      03-22-2020, 02:22 PM   #3424
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Lol. I think you have no idea what you're talking about

The only car that suffers significant battery degradation is the Nissan leaf, because they didn't put any thermal management on the battery. The link you posted has nothing to do with degradation-- it was a software update that reduced capacity. Which, btw, was the only such time such a thing has occurred in all of EVs, and didn't effect all cars it was installed on that way.

Or, put another way-- my EV is now 3 years old and has 60,000+ miles on it, and has no measurable degradation (you can do a cluster battery capacity test at any time).

Or, put another way, every EV has a warranty that guarantees 70-80% (depending on the brand) battery capacity for 8 years/100,000-120,000 miles. People being able to take advantage of that warranty almost never occurs, and when it does is likely the result of faulty components (being that it's an outlier case)-- not degradation.

And you're comparing horsepower output to battery capacity, which are... not a meaningful comparison. You'd be better suited saying something like, "EVs don't lose horsepower over time like ICEVs do" or "ICEV gas tanks don't decrease in capacity like EV batteries do over time". Comparing engine output to battery capacity is just... meaningless.

Your posts are so consistently ill informed that I keep wondering if you're actually just trolling, and don't actually believe what you're saying.
Most cars have warranty as well you point is kind of pointless, compare the cost of replacing the battery for an EV vs an engine/transmission rebuild. It night and day.
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      03-22-2020, 02:38 PM   #3425
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What's the resale market going to be on EV's....your cell phone analogy is excellent. Tesla's (EV's in general) are not bought by car enthusiasts, so like cell phones folks are going to want the new model and I suspect that the interest for used will be less than that of ICE. I'd happily buy a well loved M2 or M4 but have zero interest in buying any used EV out there.
The ICE vs BEV debates are like IBM vs Apple, in the end they both won with the only difference being the time span you choose to look at.

That said, the notion that Teslas aren't bought by "car enthusiasts" is demonstrably false - it's kind of like saying choppers aren't purchased by motorcycle enthusiasts - it's misses global buyer trends, the breadth of the auto community, and the rate of improvement of BEVs (which is a not-intuitively-understood exponential curve - e.g., in the last 10 years lithium batteries have ~3x more energy density and are ~10x cheaper - meanwhile while ICE has gotten somewhat more efficient, it's not close to the same rate of change)

If it helps you understand what you're missing, here's a (very famous) guy who builds custom vehicles for a global clientele - TLDR:

(1.) Lets call someone paying $200k+ for a custom vehicle a "car enthusiast"
(2.) Says his business will be 50% BEV in 2-3 years
(3.) Says he warns every BEV client the BEV tech is upgrading so fast their cars will be outdated in 2 years
(4.) Say his major complaint is Tesla cock-blocking the custom makers with no software support (think if they didn't!):




As we've seen in every industry for ever and ever, where the premium custom product market goes, eventually so goes the mainstream product market (the tastemaker effect).

this whole hullabaloo reminds me of the manual vs smg wars - manual guys said enthusiasts would never buy an auto and then Ferraris came dual-clutch only and now we legit wonder if manuals will be around any more ...

Anti-BEV people argue from a point-in-time (and emotion), ignoring the tech improvement and adoption curves - that's why they're always wrong.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

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      03-22-2020, 03:36 PM   #3426
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
What's the resale market going to be on EV's....your cell phone analogy is excellent. Tesla's (EV's in general) are not bought by car enthusiasts, so like cell phones folks are going to want the new model and I suspect that the interest for used will be less than that of ICE. I'd happily buy a well loved M2 or M4 but have zero interest in buying any used EV out there.
The ICE vs BEV debates are like IBM vs Apple, in the end they both won with the only difference being the time span you choose to look at.

That said, the notion that Teslas aren't bought by "car enthusiasts" is demonstrably false - it's kind of like saying choppers aren't purchased by motorcycle enthusiasts - it's misses global buyer trends, the breadth of the auto community, and the rate of improvement of BEVs (which is a not-intuitively-understood exponential curve - e.g., in the last 10 years lithium batteries have ~3x more energy density and are ~10x cheaper - meanwhile while ICE has gotten somewhat more efficient, it's not close to the same rate of change)

If it helps you understand what you're missing, here's a (very famous) guy who builds custom vehicles for a global clientele - TLDR:

(1.) Lets call someone paying $200k+ for a custom vehicle a "car enthusiast"
(2.) Says his business will be 50% BEV in 2-3 years
(3.) Says he warns every BEV client the BEV tech is upgrading so fast their cars will be outdated in 2 years
(4.) Say his major complaint is Tesla cock-blocking the custom makers with no software support (think if they didn't!):




As we've seen in every industry for ever and ever, where the premium custom product market goes, eventually so goes the mainstream product market (the tastemaker effect).

this whole hullabaloo reminds me of the manual vs smg wars - manual guys said enthusiasts would never buy an auto and then Ferraris came dual-clutch only and now we legit wonder if manuals will be around any more ...

Anti-BEV people argue from a point-in-time (and emotion), ignoring the tech improvement and adoption curves - that's why they're always wrong.
guss im no financial expert but people won't buy stuff that's inconvenient and expensive especially when they are broke.
The auto versus manual analogy isn't valid as auto was more convenient nowhere more more expensive and ran on an ice platform
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      03-22-2020, 04:28 PM   #3427
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That's a completely different story from the natural battery degradation you started with.
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      03-22-2020, 04:33 PM   #3428
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That's a completely different story from the natural battery degradation you started with.
I don’t think he understands how conversations work. Every statement is “refuted” by something unrelated to the topic at hand. He’s more like a... random chat bot.
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      03-22-2020, 04:35 PM   #3429
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Most cars have warranty as well you point is kind of pointless, compare the cost of replacing the battery for an EV vs an engine/transmission rebuild. It night and day.
My point was that if your statement was remotely accurate (20%-40% degradation in 2 years), car companies would constantly be replacing batteries— instead of the reality of the situation, which is that they almost never have to, over a time frame 4x longer than you described. Or, here’s another way to look at it: per Samsung, who makes the i3 battery, the 94aH battery should hit 80% of original capacity at 526,000 miles. Cars with bigger batteries than the i3 (which is pretty much all new ones and every Tesla ever) should get more miles than that before hitting 80%, because they use less cycles per mile.
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      03-22-2020, 05:12 PM   #3430
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Yeah, you too would make the commute, trust me.
Nope. Work time is a fixed value, so every minute on the road is a minute less with my family. Love them too much for that. My limit is 30 minutes driving or 1 hour public transport each way. Never had a job that required more, passed on a couple of really cool offers because of that, never felt sorry, never will.
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I do actually love my car and did follow the CBS OCI until it stopped working (a thread by me you can find on the internet). I like my car so much I've added two other BMWs to spread the mileage over, just to save the E90.
Maintenance on a gas car is a function of mileage. Spreading mileage over three cars just means you're spreading the same amount of maintenance over three cars.
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The 300+ range Model 3 comes only in AWD, which adds cost, weight, and complexity to the drivetrain that I find unnecessary. I don't need AWD. A long range dual motor Model 3 with self-driving (misnomer) is $58K, or $52K after 6-years of fuel savings. Sorry, but I'd get a Honda Accord Sport with a manual trans and have $30,000 to spend on fuel. The Accord is a way nicer car than the Model 3.
Two problems: the numbers are off, and you're comparing apples and oranges.
- M3 LR is $56K, not $58K.
- You will be saving way more than $1K/yr in fuel. My savings compared to my previous F31 328i are approximately 10c/mile, so even if you take the Accord that has better mileage and uses cheaper gas than the F31, you're still looking at a minimum $3K-$4K difference _per_year_.
- There are several large ticket items any gas car needs over that mileage. It'll need new brakes twice as often as a Tesla. Newer BMW? You need walnut blasting annually. But even if it's an Accord, it'll need spark plugs, fixing leaks here and there, water pumps, alternators, etc. - we've all been there. The parity is only in the electrical system (low voltage side), tires, and suspension. And I'm not including the potential main battery issues because of a really strong warranty coverage specifically for that part.
- You include the price of the autopilot option on the Tesla side while no competition can offer similar functionality. Remove that option, and the Tesla gets $7K cheaper.

Quote:
Yes, I've been in a Model 3 several times for periods up to an hour. The ride sucks, road noise is terrible (it is no more quiet inside than my well-worn 3-Series), the rear seat sucks, and I'd rip out the TV monitor after a week. And it looks better driving backwards (if my dog had a face like that, I'd train it to walk backwards...).

The main issue I have with the Model 3 is the screen can't be turned off. 99.999% of the time I know where I'm going, so I don't need a fucking map on to distract me while driving. And yeah, I've seen the auto pilot in action, it can't drive worth shit. Throw inclement weather and road construction at it and it gives up. And the fetch mode is a laugh. My colleague at work demonstrated his car with me, and it gave up; it was 50 feet from us - LOL. $7K for a system that doesn't really work in all situations, no thanks. Techies love it, and I understand why. I don't like the car.
This here is the real reason why you don't want a Tesla: you don't like how it looks, you don't like its ride, you didn't give yourself a chance to get used to the interface. All of this is a totally valid justification for walking away and getting a different car. But it's just your personal preferences. That's not a problem at all, but it doesn't change the fact that objectively a Tesla or any other longer range EV is better suited for long commutes.

(BTW - be careful when giving your impressions of the autopilot. If it's been more than a couple of months since you last tried it, your knowledge of it is already obsolete. Especially if it was with the hardware prior to v3.)
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The Ford e-Stang is going to be offered with 300 miles in a RWD version for about $45K. It has real gauges and hopefully the Model S inspired TV screen can be turned off.
Sure. I wasn't arguing for a specific model anyway, it's just up until now Tesla has been the only car with good range for not a lot of money. There's also the Kona, though it's 258 miles EPA is borderline for your use case.
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      03-22-2020, 05:13 PM   #3431
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I don’t think he understands how conversations work. Every statement is “refuted” by something unrelated to the topic at hand. He’s more like a... random chat bot.
More like my teenage daughter.
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      03-22-2020, 05:19 PM   #3432
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I just can't see how you drive an i3 with 120 mile range (? not sure which one you own) 50,000 miles a year unless it is on a cord every time is not moving. Driving it short distances several times a day and recharging the battery in between is nearly impossible to rack up 50,000 miles in a year. The point I was making is my commute takes up a decent amount of time and the best I can do is 37,000 miles a year and work a full-time job.
I charge at work. I always leave work with a 100% full battery, regardless of how much I arrive with. If I'm doing stuff on the way home, I charge at home a bit (as little as possible, to try to arrive at work with as little power as possible). If I head straight home, I don't need to charge at home... and I never do any errands on the way into work, because work starts at 7am.

Most of my actual home charging happens on the weekends. During the weekends, if the car's not in use, we generally just plug it in. My parents live 40 miles away, my wife's parents live 50 miles away, etc... so it's good to have it topped off.
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