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      03-09-2020, 03:59 PM   #89
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      03-09-2020, 04:12 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRobUSC View Post
I remember BMW actually built an M8 prototype with a 550hp V12 as a Ferrari fighter, that was definitely NOT the 850CSi:

https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/05/22/o...arkable-thing/

Unfortunately the bean counters deemed it too expensive and didn't think it would make a profit so they never produced it.
Go look at the 850csi engine: S70B56
Legend.

We can only hope someone at BMW with soul will find a way to put the last production BMW V12 in an M8 CS or CSL before the 8 and the V12 are killed off by corporate.
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      03-09-2020, 04:17 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
We only have ourselves to blame for the shift away from DCT's. Automakers are phasing out DCT's because North Americans as a whole complained about the clunky slow speed shifting. Audi is also shifting away from them because of this. Everyone likes to think they buy these cars to track them but the reality is that most don't and a lot of the people using these as daily drivers will appreciate the more refined operation and butter smooth shifts of the ZF8. The DCT and the ZF are both very good automatic transmissions and while personally on a car like an M2 or M3 I may prefer a DCT for the rawness ultra-quick downshifts, the ZF would certainly not be a deal breaker for me as it's a really good automatic transmission.
That's why I have been repeatedly saying, improve the low-speed driveability of DCT and there you go, problem solved!

Just keep building F87 as it is please. We don't need another fugly grilled grocery getter bearing an M badge.
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      03-09-2020, 04:34 PM   #92
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      03-09-2020, 05:23 PM   #93
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Really happy to hear about MT

Only 2 thing I wish is: about the same grill size and less weight
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      03-09-2020, 05:34 PM   #94
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I'm just really afraid it will have the overly massive grill and the loss of the holfmeister kink...
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      03-09-2020, 06:02 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Simple solution is to just buy the manual.

The ZF 8HP probably gives the best compromise in performance and cost to be able to make the G87 happen at all. The difference in real performance could potentially be zero. Proponents of the DCT seem to only be able to offer that there is less shift lag and how quick the shifts feel. Whether or not that actually makes a difference is performance is debatable. BMW still has to make compromises in feel to make cars affordable. They can't quite charge Porsche prices. Anyway, IMO, an automatic is an automatic.
The DCT has a lot more character, but there's probably not much market for that. Most people who care about character buy the MT. A lot of people who drive an auto want it to be simple and smooth. To DCT is weird, rolls back in hills, clunky, and noisy, you can burn the clutches, but I love it for it's quirks and mechanical feel while shifting super fast and not losing boost on upshifts. The perfect throttle blips don't hurt, but that's probably going to be the same on the zf8 and mt going forward.
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      03-09-2020, 06:05 PM   #96
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Still exposed oil cooler underneath the car ?
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      03-09-2020, 06:08 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stunad View Post
M2 coupe and Gran Coupe renders
Well if they make a GC perhaps they have a customer...
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      03-09-2020, 06:19 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
I wonder if this M2 will be available for European delivery.
They might be able to build a US spec car in Germany for Euro delivery if they also build the euro cars there. I would bet not though.
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      03-09-2020, 06:26 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
Well if they make a GC perhaps they have a customer...
If they did, it would be based on the F44. Re-tuned B48, AWD.
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      03-09-2020, 06:30 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I bet you I don't. Explain "part throttle". What makes a DCT superior to an 8HP at part throttle? the TC is locked almost all the time. There is no TC slip except at start or slower shifts when it doesn't matter. And how does "overall feel" make a DCT better? How does it make you a better driver? Yes the shifts feel a little crisper, but the car is still shifting for you. You're not doing any of the work like in a manual transmission. So what does it matter?
Over all feel is the most important, unless you're racing. Responsiveness is very important to some of us. People have a preference for one MT gearbox over another, even though they do the same thing, but they feel different. Porsche MT feels different than the BMW which feels rubbery. They both do the same thing though, but feels is important.
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      03-09-2020, 06:38 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
Over all feel is the most important, unless you're racing. Responsiveness is very important to some of us. People have a preference for one MT gearbox over another, even though they do the same thing, but they feel different. Porsche MT feels different than the BMW which feels rubbery. They both do the same thing though, but feels is important.
I agree. I think the feel of a manual shifter is important because that is your actual connection to the drivetrain and you are executing those shifts. The quality of the shift relies on how it feels in your hand and your left foot.

But a DCT is an automatic transmission. You put it in D and you go. Or you use the paddles or the shifter to shift up and down but it's purely electronic. What you do with your hands doesn't physically correlate to anything in the transmission. That's why I'm confused why someone with a DCT thinks the feel is so important when they've already abandoned the car with the most feel, the manual transmission.
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      03-09-2020, 06:57 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I agree. I think the feel of a manual shifter is important because that is your actual connection to the drivetrain and you are executing those shifts. The quality of the shift relies on how it feels in your hand and your left foot.

But a DCT is an automatic transmission. You put it in D and you go. Or you use the paddles or the shifter to shift up and down but it's purely electronic. What you do with your hands doesn't physically correlate to anything in the transmission. That's why I'm confused why someone with a DCT thinks the feel is so important when they've already abandoned the car with the most feel, the manual transmission.
Imagine pulling a paddle to down shift and it takes a half second for the car to respond to your input. Then imagine with another transmission the cars responds to your input instantly. Which one do you think feels better? I find that things that don't respond to my inputs instantly annoy the fucking shit out of me. That's true of a user interface on a touch screen, in a video game, a remote control, and in a car.

If I was in the market for a g87 I'll probably prefer the MT this time so it does what I want when I want and I feel something. The zf8 just makes me wonder what the car is thinking when it doesn't respond instantly, and the smooth shifts makes me feel that much more disconnected from the car. At that point the upsides of an auto no longer outweighs the downsides of the MT to me. I'll take the inconvenience, the boost loss, the higher gas consumption, and higher cruising rpm of the MT over the sloppy input response disconnected feel of zf8. Also might as well get a MT new while I still can, as it will someday go the way of the DCT.
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      03-09-2020, 07:15 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
It won't. Also smoother shifts in a ZF8 is not a benefit. It means less excitement than a DCT.
Agreed, ZF auto won't be the same as a DCT, so they really should have followed in Lamborghini's footsteps and used a Single Clutch Transmission in order to keep the feeling of shifting.
At least they will offer a manual for those of us who enjoy the ultimate in control!
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      03-09-2020, 07:20 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stunad View Post
M2 coupe and Gran Coupe renders
Not gonna lie, the front end rendering does not look bad at all, too bad BMW's designers likely will ruin it.
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      03-09-2020, 07:24 PM   #105
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Too bad it wont have awd option, but its too small for my liking anyway. MT is good to hear
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      03-09-2020, 08:11 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirenz2006 View Post
hopefully it has really large grills
It should have them. Don't see why it wouldn't.
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      03-09-2020, 09:08 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
"slightly larger dimensions" = ugh
future "mild hybrid electric boosting" = interesting

Get one before the huge grills get fitted
Here we go again. The 2 series in 10 years will grow to the same size as the current 3 series. When will BMW learn that if we want a larger car that we'll simply buy the next series up. If I wanted a larger M2 then I would by an M4...This is what caused me to all but abandon the brand. 3 years ago I owned 4 BMWs. I now own 1. Sold my M2 late last year. The one remaining BMW I own is a 2020 X1 for my wife which I think is a big step back from her previous X1.
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Last edited by Pyrat 2; 03-10-2020 at 09:36 PM..
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      03-09-2020, 09:13 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Not gonna lie, the front end rendering does not look bad at all, too bad BMW's designers likely will ruin it.
These renders look great. Much nicer than the G80 we've seen so far.
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      03-09-2020, 09:26 PM   #109
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This will become another M4.

They should keep the same size and horsepower and focus on reducing weight, steering and driving dynamics.

Also I will buy one made from Germany, otherwise time to switch to Porsche.

The outgoing M2C is very exciting to drive. Steering and feel can still be improved.
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      03-09-2020, 09:38 PM   #110
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Glad I bought my F87. I'll enjoy it for many many years regardless of how good the new one is. Im sure it'll be a good one, but lack of DCT may force me back to a manual on that one.
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