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      03-09-2020, 04:30 PM   #23
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If you have to ask quite frankly you'll never understand.

I do have to shake my head at your mentality though. Politely of course.
That sounds like it's code for something my uncle would say after having a few tall boys at Thanksgiving dinner.
Lol, if I'm being honest hording cheaply made 3rd world goods is something my crazy wine aunt would advocate for.

Enjoy your Mexican Motor Works ''''M'''2. Not much Bavarian or 'sport' about it though.
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      03-09-2020, 04:33 PM   #24
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Cabo delivery? 😜
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      03-09-2020, 04:36 PM   #25
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Everyone has their own preferances, what is good and what is of inferiour quality.
Alot of Europeans think that US made BMW has worse build quality than the Germans.
It's part history, mixed with some facts and more bias.
The place of origin from a product, should not be a major concern at this time in history, in the presens perhaps.
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      03-09-2020, 04:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
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If you have to ask quite frankly you'll never understand.
Enjoy your Mexican Motor Works ''''M'''2. Not much Bavarian or 'sport' about it though.
These cars are not craftily hand-built or carved out from some 500 year old tree; it's primarily assembled and programed by machines. There is very little human interaction in installation of any of major components and any human being can be trained to snap in a grille or turn a screwdriver, it's not rocket science and when you break it down, it's all the same.

The prestige of it not being assembled and shipped from Germany is the only drawback but that's all sentimental.


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      03-09-2020, 04:58 PM   #27
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These cars are not craftily hand-built or carved out from some 500 year old tree; it's primarily assembled and programed by machines. There is very little human interaction in installation of any of major components and any human being can be trained to snap in a grille or turn a screwdriver, it's not rocket science and when you break it down, it's all the same.

The prestige of it not being assembled and shipped from Germany is the only drawback but that's all sentimental.

Not really.

These machines you speak of are still programmed, calibrated, and operated by humans. What you see in the BMW production montage videos doesn't show the whole picture.

If you ever worked production, you'd be surprised to learn how many people will drive a screw with a drill/driver in different ways. And while it's not rocket science, it does require some degree of intellect and precision. And dedication, which workers in developing countries have a tendency to lack, especially with slave labor.

Even the most automated car assemblies in the world still rely heavily on human precision. For example, parts of the interior are still fastened and aligned by people. Not to mention sown partially (or entirely) by hand, depending on the brand and model. Robots don't create and assemble the entire car from scratch. We are still decades away from that.
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      03-09-2020, 05:10 PM   #28
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If you ever worked production, you'd be surprised to learn how many people will drive a screw with a drill/driver in different ways. And while it's not rocket science, it does require some degree of intellect and IQ.
So you're basically saying that it's impossible to train a local or possible incite others from wherever, to mimic the same work a German native can properly accomplish?

Even folks from "shithole" countries have competent talent. It's narrow-minded to assume otherwise. It's a big world out there and it's up to BMW assure they hire skilled workers, regardless of where their product is assembled.

They're not going to pluck natives off a cartel or a migrant worker off the field, there must be a process to vet potential talent.

Regardless, the development of these vehicles are designed to be streamlined in the assembling process, akin LEGOs, as one falls into the other.
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      03-09-2020, 05:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ///Mac View Post
If you ever worked production, you'd be surprised to learn how many people will drive a screw with a drill/driver in different ways. And while it's not rocket science, it does require some degree of intellect and IQ.
So you're basically saying that's it's impossible to train a local or possible incite others from wherever, to mimic the same work a German native can properly accomplish?

Even folks from "shithole" countries have competent talent. It's narrow-minded to assume otherwise. It's a big world out there and it's up to BMW assure they hire competent workers, regardless of where it's assembled.

They're not going to pluck natives off a cartel or a migrant worker off the field, there must be a process to vet talent.

Regardless, the development of these vehicles are designed to be streamlined in the assembling process, akin LEGOs, as one falls into the other.
Nono you see, Germans genetically are superior at building vehicles. No way you can teach those brown people to turn a screwdriver correctly.
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      03-09-2020, 05:24 PM   #30
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So you're basically saying that's it's impossible to train a local or possible incite others from wherever, to mimic the same work a German native can properly accomplish?

Even folks from "shithole" countries have competent talent. It's narrow-minded to assume otherwise. It's a big world out there and it's up to BMW assure they hire competent workers, regardless of where it's assembled.

They're not going to hire natives off a cartel or a migrant worker off the field, they must be a process to vet talent.

Regardless, the development of these vehicles are designed to be streamlined in the assembling process, akin LEGOs, as one falls into the other.
I'm guessing you haven't traveled much in your lifetime.

Yes, folks from so-called "shithole" countries have very different customs and perception of concepts like quality, craftsmanship, attention to detail, dedication, etc. I've seen this with my own eyes when I lived and traveled in Asia.

What constitutes a competent worker in one country can be considered failure in another. Often times, cultural differences alone play a role and account for differences in quality. If you don't agree with it because you can't grasp it or because you haven't experienced it first hand, that's fine. But don't refute what actually happens.
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      03-09-2020, 05:37 PM   #31
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Not really.

These machines you speak of are still programmed, calibrated, and operated by humans. What you see in the BMW production montage videos doesn't show the whole picture.

If you ever worked production, you'd be surprised to learn how many people will drive a screw with a drill/driver in different ways. And while it's not rocket science, it does require some degree of intellect and precision. And dedication, which workers in developing countries have a tendency to lack, especially with slave labor.

Even the most automated car assemblies in the world still rely heavily on human precision. For example, parts of the interior are still fastened and aligned by people. Not to mention sown partially (or entirely) by hand, depending on the brand and model. Robots don't create and assemble the entire car from scratch. We are still decades away from that.
Oh please. What these people do is very simple and based solely on repetition which is why you only need a high school diploma to get a job working on the assembly line. Also it's not like the just hire people, hand them a drill, and let them go at it. They all undergo extensive training for the parts they will be installing. I work in the field of assembly and it's all about making things so simple that little intellect and precision is required and it's all based on simple repetition. Also the parts are all the same regardless of where the vehicles are being assembled so it's not like Mexican made BMW's sport inferior parts/materials.
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      03-09-2020, 05:52 PM   #32
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Oh please. What these people do is very simple and based solely on repetition which is why you only need a high school diploma to get a job working on the assembly line. Also it's not like the just hire people, hand them a drill, and let them go at it. They all undergo extensive training for the parts they will be installing. I work in the field of assembly and it's all about making things so simple that little intellect and precision is required and it's all based on simple repetition. Also the parts are all the same regardless of where the vehicles are being assembled so it's not like Mexican made BMW's sport inferior parts/materials.
Another privileged North American who knows absolutely nothing about the outside world.

If things were as simple as you say they are, then you'd be very naive to have spent hundreds of thousands over the years on BMW's that should cost a third of what they do, since, according to your reasoning, they can be assembled by a moron in any third-world country.

You can train anybody to do anything, but you can't train somebody to care. Those are cultural differences that you'll probably never understand.
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      03-09-2020, 06:34 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ///Mac View Post
Another privileged North American who knows absolutely nothing about the outside world.

If things were as simple as you say they are, then you'd be very naive to have spent hundreds of thousands over the years on BMW's that should cost a third of what they do, since, according to your reasoning, they can be assembled by a moron in any third-world country.

You can train anybody to do anything, but you can't train somebody to care. Those are cultural differences that you'll probably never understand.
A lot of money goes into research and development which is done in Germany and what I believe is the single most important step in defining a car's character. Also, parts like the engine, transmission are made in Austria or Germany and shipped to Mexico for assembly. Final assembly is, believe it or not, just a small part of what it takes to deliver you a BMW. BMW engineers make the decision to use a certain grade of steel, a certain ZF 8HP transmission, a particular type of plastics for the interior, a certain type of wood or aluminum trim, a certain grade and amount of leather, etc. Would you rather have Merino leather in your car? Or have it mostly assembled by German robots instead of Mexican robots?

What that person described is actually very accurate depiction of modern manufacturing methods. Manufacturing was optimized into a fine art by Toyota using "Lean Manufacturing" techniques. All major carmakers use this system now. One result of this method (and the whole assembly line method invented by Henry Ford) is that people do a job that is as simple as possible. This makes them an expert at assembling a dash panel or torquing on some wheels or looking for paint defects. The manufacturing line also has experts that roam the floor and if anyone has a problem, they will call those experts in to help with any problems. Those experts are likely to be veterans from other BMW factories, at first anyway. Regardless, you should tour a modern car manufacturing plant. Robots do a shockingly large amount of the work. It's really just some of the final components that are snapped in by humans.

The reason manufacturing in third world countries gets a bad rep is because the products are usually designed to be very cheap. When a product is designed to be of high quality, it can be made in any country and it will be an excellent product. A lot of high end smartphones and laptops are made in China but a lot of junk is also made in China. You can get anything made in China, but if you specify a higher quality product, it will cost you more.

The cost of parts alone is probably over half the cost of the car. The actual assembly process itself is less than 15% of the cost of the car. Probably much less. They still have to buy the same robots, tooling, and consultants to get the factory up and running. The only thing they save on are worker wages and real estate. It's not like they're getting that for free, so even if you figure they're paying half of what they pay German workers (Mexican auto workers actually enjoy relatively good wages), you're still only saving single digit percentages on the manufacturing cost of the car.
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      03-09-2020, 06:39 PM   #34
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BMWs that are/were made in Germany still have major oil leaks issues, drivetrain malfunction, sensors going out left and right, so what's your point? And don't tell me you have never had any of those issues above with your BMW that was "Made in Germany"!! Bias much?
Are you implying that it's not ok to be biased or that it's not okay to prefer your car to be made somewhere when you're paying tens of thousands for it?

It's his money. There is nothing wrong with preferring a product be built in a specific region or country. Or by a specific group of people. That doesn't make one racist or xenophobic. The belief that, on average, a Mexican worker in an automobile factory doesn't quite possess the same level of dedication or attention to detail as a German worker - is not far-fetched. Just as it's not wrong to believe that, on average, Mexico produces more world-class boxers than most other countries. It is what it is.

There are many people in this thread who couldn't tell the difference between Chinese-made and Italian-made shoes. And there are those who can.

If history and experience is anything to go by, then yes, it does matter where things are made (even if they are only partially made or assembled there). Always has. And probably always will.
If we are talking about A Chinese brand of shoes and an Italian brand of shoes, then yes, they're not the same in quality, period. BUT if we are talking about an Italian Brand of shoes that has a factory in China to produce the same quality shoes but for a lower cost, then yes, the quality is still there. Look at Nike, made in China, but the quality is is still here. That's my point.
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      03-09-2020, 07:23 PM   #35
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Well glad I got my M2C before they get made in Mexico . Yikes !
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      03-09-2020, 07:31 PM   #36
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At least there will be more custom license plate options since M2 , M2C etc is taken.

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      03-09-2020, 07:33 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by ///Mac View Post
Another privileged North American who knows absolutely nothing about the outside world.

If things were as simple as you say they are, then you'd be very naive to have spent hundreds of thousands over the years on BMW's that should cost a third of what they do, since, according to your reasoning, they can be assembled by a moron in any third-world country.

You can train anybody to do anything, but you can't train somebody to care. Those are cultural differences that you'll probably never understand.
You are doing a fine job in this thread of proving that morons are not exclusive to 3rd world countries.
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      03-09-2020, 07:40 PM   #38
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Pendejo

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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
WHEN MEXICO SENDS THEIR PEOPLE THEYRE NOT SENDING THEIR BEST

THEYRE BRINGING DRUGS
THEYRE BRINGING CRIME
THEYRE RAPISTS
SOME OF THEM ARE GOOD PEOPLE, I ASSUME



We can only infer the good ones are just good boys working on BMWs that Mexico opted to keep.
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      03-09-2020, 08:06 PM   #39
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Shithole country...oh wait

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/money...ms/4243091002/

Ford workers break their silence on faulty transmissions: 'Everybody knew'

Quote:
They knew the truth and kept quiet.

Their secret wasnít a secret at all in engineering, product development, research, design or manufacturing within Ford Motor Co., say seven current and former employees who worked to develop and launch the Fiesta and Focus cars that would become known for defective automatic transmissions.

he engineer said: ďWeíd raise our hands and be told, ĎDonít be naysayers.í We got strange comments. It seemed the ship had sailed. After that, if you ask questions, youíre accused of mutiny, so you put your head down and make it work. Good people tried to make it work. But you canít violate the laws of physics. Itís a mechanical catastrophe.Ē

He was referring to the DPS6 dual-clutch "PowerShift" transmission used in 2 million Focus and Fiesta cars sold this decade that is the subject of massive litigation and a federal criminal fraud probe.

"It was cheap to make and cheap to assemble," the engineer said, but because the DPS6 used "dry" clutch technology, it couldn't cool itself, ensuring failures in real-world use.
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      03-09-2020, 08:36 PM   #40
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>M2
>Production in Mexico

Oh I am laughing.
I hope you guys don't seriously buy this.
People are buying X3Ms and other M SAVs built just across the border, what's the difference?
Last time I checked the x3m is built in South Carolina.
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      03-09-2020, 09:57 PM   #41
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Wow - bigot much?

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Lmao, I agree. You know it's a get rich quick scheme. I promise the dumb zoomers and Asians and Saudi's leasing these things on the coasts won't notice anything but the badge.
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      03-09-2020, 10:02 PM   #42
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Hi. Career in integrated solutions for high throughput global manufacturing and tiered supply chains with companies you definitely heard of. Iím here to tell you that country of assembly absolutely does not matter in regards to quality.

So letís unpack this one a bit. First off, the move to Mexico is definitely due to cost, but labor is likely only a small part of it. A strategic location probably has more to do with it as Mexico is more centrally located between Europe, the US, and Asia which are obviously going to be their largest markets. Getting components to Mexico probably makes more sense than Europe since most of the components are going to be manufactured in Asia. The steel to stamp out the doors and various parts are almost certainly from Asia so it makes much more sense to shorten the supply chain. Again, donít think your major savings come from labor but supply chain. Worth noting that if canal capacity becomes limited or prices increase, Mexico assembly gives BMW options to move goods via rail/truck that wouldnít be available otherwise, especially into the US. While BMW is unlikely to extend those saving to us, the consumer, weíll likely see benefit in terms of improved manufacturing lead times.

In regards of quality this isnít going to be a lasting concern. Anytime a new plant opens up there is going to be a quality curve as the workforce (and management) becomes more mature in their operation. Companies that do well will implement standard work across their facilities teaching their teamís to work in the same way. Saw earlier someone made mention that different people hold a screwdriver a different way. First Iím ever hearing of this, but this is why standard work exists. You take your best and most efficient practices and deploy them throughout your facility. People are absolutely teachable if you have the correct support structure. To say that one nationís people are somehow inherently unable to pick up on these concepts is an uneducated opinion at best. Give me a motivated man/woman that takes pride in their work and we can teach them to do anything. Also, these kind of people exist in every country, race, religion, creed, etc. The facility in Mexico is going to be just fine, just like the facilities in Germany, US, South Africa all produce high quality products.
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      03-09-2020, 10:08 PM   #43
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Wow - bigot much?
This thread really brought out the knuckle draggers
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      03-09-2020, 10:37 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pz619 View Post
Hi. Career in integrated solutions for high throughput global manufacturing and tiered supply chains with companies you definitely heard of. Iím here to tell you that country of assembly absolutely does not matter in regards to quality.

So letís unpack this one a bit. First off, the move to Mexico is definitely due to cost, but labor is likely only a small part of it. A strategic location probably has more to do with it as Mexico is more centrally located between Europe, the US, and Asia which are obviously going to be their largest markets. Getting components to Mexico probably makes more sense than Europe since most of the components are going to be manufactured in Asia. The steel to stamp out the doors and various parts are almost certainly from Asia so it makes much more sense to shorten the supply chain. Again, donít think your major savings come from labor but supply chain. Worth noting that if canal capacity becomes limited or prices increase, Mexico assembly gives BMW options to move goods via rail/truck that wouldnít be available otherwise, especially into the US. While BMW is unlikely to extend those saving to us, the consumer, weíll likely see benefit in terms of improved manufacturing lead times.

In regards of quality this isnít going to be a lasting concern. Anytime a new plant opens up there is going to be a quality curve as the workforce (and management) becomes more mature in their operation. Companies that do well will implement standard work across their facilities teaching their teamís to work in the same way. Saw earlier someone made mention that different people hold a screwdriver a different way. First Iím ever hearing of this, but this is why standard work exists. You take your best and most efficient practices and deploy them throughout your facility. People are absolutely teachable if you have the correct support structure. To say that one nationís people are somehow inherently unable to pick up on these concepts is an uneducated opinion at best. Give me a motivated man/woman that takes pride in their work and we can teach them to do anything. Also, these kind of people exist in every country, race, religion, creed, etc. The facility in Mexico is going to be just fine, just like the facilities in Germany, US, South Africa all produce high quality products.
How dare you bring reality and facts into this conversation!
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