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View Poll Results: Should the US force critical supplies sold in America, fully made in America!
Yes, We can not depend on China for our supplies and security 22 68.75%
No, that's protectionism 10 31.25%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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      03-26-2020, 01:12 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by anglo View Post
The West lack critical supplies to fight the coronavirus because most of the stuff comes China!

Your solution, keep the status quo or your friend who works for an American beverage company will lose her job.

We're talking about only critical supplies like antibiotics, n95 masks etc.
Yes.

Blame the consumer. They are the one who want the cheaper product from overseas - and there really isn't anything wrong with that. That is the free market at work.

Dude - have you ever even read Hayek?

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      03-26-2020, 01:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Ok, I think I know what you are getting at now. We do disagree then.

I think of a government owned water treatment plant that is a truly publicly owned entity. I don’t think a publicly traded company with private/non governmental shareholders is a truly public company in the way I think you are saying.
Correct I see the government and a publicly traded companies as public entities.
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      03-26-2020, 01:19 PM   #47
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We are talking about critical supplies, not saying we cant have free trade with China!

kinda like Lockheed Martin, Boeing etc. Arent allowed to sell fighter jets to certain countries because of national security reasons!

Lacking critical supplies to fight a highly contagious disease that'll affect your military is a national security vulnerability!

Some here turned the discussion into me being against walmart selling stuff made in China. Lol
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      03-26-2020, 01:22 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Correct I see the government and a publicly traded companies as public entities.
This would be an inaccurate statement.

In this terminology - a 'public' company would be one funded by taxpayer dollars.

In another context - a public company can also mean a publicly traded company - but this is a different context.

The two are not the same thing.
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      03-26-2020, 01:32 PM   #49
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So there is a Federal regulation which addresses this topic to some extent. Many Federal Agencies require certain products sold to them to comply with Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA) program. The jist of this regulation is that products need to be substantially transformed in countries which are deemed friendly to the US. BAA goes one step further and is a certification for products manufactured in the US or Mexico (don't recall if Canada is also deemed part of this).

TAA is instituted to address supply chain concerns from mainly China that are used in Federal Agencies. I don't profess to know all the ins and outs of compliance with TAA. But the key part of what I've picked up on is the language which states a product has to be substantially transformed in a US approved country. But from my understanding, the components which are used to build out said product are still sourced from manufacturing plants in China.

So while this helps to mitigate some national security concerns, it doesn't resolve them. But I think this is a decent template/starting point to start looking at certain products which will have national implications.

Also, I seem to recall the Department of Energy has an IC fab plant in the US to produce certain electronic components that are critical to the ballistic nuclear weapons program.
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      03-26-2020, 01:40 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
We are talking about critical supplies, not saying we cant have free trade with China!

kinda like Lockheed Martin, Boeing etc. Arent allowed to sell fighter jets to certain countries because of national security reasons!

Lacking critical supplies to fight a highly contagious disease that'll affect your military is a national security vulnerability!

Some here turned the discussion into me being against walmart selling stuff made in China. Lol
You keep changing the subject again. Part of getting the extremely lucrative contracts to build and design the fighters etc (which they are not forced to build) is abiding by the export laws for such products.

Try again.
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      03-26-2020, 01:54 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
You keep changing the subject again. Part of getting the extremely lucrative contracts to build and design the fighters etc (which they are not forced to build) is abiding by the export laws for such products.

Try again.
Did you the title?

It reads critical supplies...
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      03-26-2020, 01:56 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Did you the title?

It reads critical supplies...
And forced to...................did you read your own title?
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      03-26-2020, 02:00 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Force? Wouldn’t that be a rather large paradigm shift and go against what the US is all about, aka freedom?

This is something communist countries do like China.
Would you be OK with General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Lockheed Martin selling nuclear ICBM or stealth aircraft technology to China, North Korea, Iran, and anyone else who can come up with the cash? If not, how do you propose to stop them...with a consumer boycott? They're not consumer products companies, so that's a non-starter.

The government already bans U.S. companies from doing business with many countries. They haven't done so with China because they've been deemed too important (translation: they give politicians and businesses and educational institutions too much money).

I'm generally in favor of as little government as we can get by with, but this is one case where I think it's a legitimate role of a central government to make sure greedy companies don't do business with our enemies, when doing so would place America and her allies in peril.
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      03-26-2020, 02:03 PM   #54
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This very topic and the shot over the proverbial bow happened over a decade ago. Yet nothing happened to mitigate this issue with China.

In 2008, a FBI briefing on an ongoing investigation was leaked out to the public over counterfeit parts coming out of China. These parts were injected into legitimate supply chains and no one knew this was happening until a large number of component failures started to happen. Cisco launched an internal investigation and realized the failed components were counterfeit and brought the FBI in. The FBI was gathering information and was trying to trace the players responsible for the counterfeit parts. Because of the leaked briefing, the FBI had to cut short their investigation and move to arrest those they had already identified but didn't get everyone they wanted.

I have worked with a ton of Cisco gear during that time frame and I'd be hard pressed to realize I was holding a counterfeit part. You'll see the slight nuances in the briefing that pointed out the small physical differences.

Here is a site which has the actual FBI Power Point slides:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread350381/pg1
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      03-26-2020, 02:06 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
Would you be OK with General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Lockheed Martin selling nuclear ICBM or stealth aircraft technology to China, North Korea, Iran, and anyone else who can come up with the cash? If not, how do you propose to stop them...with a consumer boycott? They're not consumer products companies, so that's a non-starter.

The government already bans U.S. companies from doing business with many countries. They haven't done so with China because they've been deemed too important (translation: they give politicians and businesses and educational institutions too much money).

I'm generally in favor of as little government as we can get by with, but this is one case where I think it's a legitimate role of a central government to make sure greedy companies don't do business with our enemies, when doing so would place America and her allies in peril.
This has happened not long ago. The Feds had a talk with Sprint about the national security implications of buying Huawei 5G equipment. What ever was said to Sprint worked as they canceled their orders with Huawei.

The Australians did the same thing by officially banning any Huawei equipment to be used in their telecom infrastructure.
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      03-26-2020, 02:06 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
Would you be OK with General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Lockheed Martin selling nuclear ICBM or stealth aircraft technology to China, North Korea, Iran, and anyone else who can come up with the cash? If not, how do you propose to stop them...with a consumer boycott? They're not consumer products companies, so that's a non-starter.

The government already bans U.S. companies from doing business with many countries. They haven't done so with China because they've been deemed too important (translation: they give politicians and businesses and educational institutions too much money).

I'm generally in favor of as little government as we can get by with, but this is one case where I think it's a legitimate role of a central government to make sure greedy companies don't do business with our enemies, when doing so would place America and her allies in peril.
Why is this directed at me? What you are writing about has nothing to do with the government forcing a company to make xyz product in the US specifically.

In a later post Anglo brought this same subject up and it is covered under export laws in exchange for taking a shit ton of taxpayer money for said contracts. That is a completely different topic.
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      03-26-2020, 02:13 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Why is this directed at me? What you are writing about has nothing to do with the government forcing a company to make xyz product in the US specifically.

In a later post Anglo brought this same subject up and it is covered under export laws in exchange for taking a shit ton of taxpayer money for said contracts. That is a completely different topic.
The topic is U.S. companies engaging in commerce overseas in ways that put the U.S. in danger. Applies equally whether they're buying or selling or hiring work done.
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      03-26-2020, 02:19 PM   #58
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The topic is U.S. companies engaging in commerce overseas in ways that put the U.S. in danger. Applies equally whether they're buying or selling or hiring work done.
I disagree. The main point is should the US government be able to force companies to make whatever supplies they deem critical in the US. That has nothing to do with selling top secret defense products to enemies.
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      03-26-2020, 02:36 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
The topic is U.S. companies engaging in commerce overseas in ways that put the U.S. in danger. Applies equally whether they're buying or selling or hiring work done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I disagree. The main point is should the US government be able to force companies to make whatever supplies they deem critical in the US. That has nothing to do with selling top secret defense products to enemies.
I think it's a combination of the two. I believe that certain critical items should be contracted in the US by the government to organizations that want to manufacture the items. I should NEVER be mandated.

No should be the answer for anyone that believes in and understands protectionism and true free markets. OP, maybe a more clear delineation of what you really meant would aid the conversation. There is a large cone of variance in what you propose vs, that which I believe, you mean.
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      03-26-2020, 02:41 PM   #60
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It's impossible to get the Dems to understand that China making our critical supplies is a security threat!

This is like having Iran being the sole provider of your medical supplies!
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      03-26-2020, 02:45 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
So there is a Federal regulation which addresses this topic to some extent. Many Federal Agencies require certain products sold to them to comply with Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA) program. The jist of this regulation is that products need to be substantially transformed in countries which are deemed friendly to the US. BAA goes one step further and is a certification for products manufactured in the US or Mexico (don't recall if Canada is also deemed part of this).

TAA is instituted to address supply chain concerns from mainly China that are used in Federal Agencies. I don't profess to know all the ins and outs of compliance with TAA. But the key part of what I've picked up on is the language which states a product has to be substantially transformed in a US approved country. But from my understanding, the components which are used to build out said product are still sourced from manufacturing plants in China.

So while this helps to mitigate some national security concerns, it doesn't resolve them. But I think this is a decent template/starting point to start looking at certain products which will have national implications.

Also, I seem to recall the Department of Energy has an IC fab plant in the US to produce certain electronic components that are critical to the ballistic nuclear weapons program.
I was just going to mention this. We have TAA and BAA. TAA does allow for foreign made content but has to be from non adversarial countries. BAA is more like it has to be made in the USA. Some federal contracts stipulate these requirement based on the sensitivity of the work or other reasons. Medical supply chain certainly sounds like it could fit into that.
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      03-26-2020, 02:57 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
I think it's a combination of the two. I believe that certain critical items should be contracted in the US by the government to organizations that want to manufacture the items. I should NEVER be mandated.

No should be the answer for anyone that believes in and understands protectionism and true free markets. OP, maybe a more clear delineation of what you really meant would aid the conversation. There is a large cone of variance in what you propose vs, that which I believe, you mean.
As do I, it's the forced part I and obviously others are having a problem with.

Unless it is under the Defense Production Act. But, even than as we see with Ford/GM in wanting to make ventilators they don't have to force anyone to do it. They want to save their businesses and government contracts for such things are pretty lucrative/sure money so everyone clamors for them.
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      03-26-2020, 03:12 PM   #63
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Are you really a commercial pilot?
I rarely post here, usually lurk m3 forum but this Anglo guy spouts alot of contradictory things specially when it comes to American politics. To be honest I think he's either a troll or a paid shill. When asked certain direct questions into his "political ideals" he goes off tangent, ignores, or deflects. I'm positive he's not even Republican. I can't take his posts in political threads seriously.
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      03-26-2020, 03:15 PM   #64
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I rarely post here, usually lurk m3 forum but this Anglo guy spouts alot of contradictory things specially when it comes to American politics. To be honest I think he's either a troll or a paid shill. When asked certain direct questions into his "political ideals" he goes off tangent, ignores, or deflects. I'm positive he's not even Republican. I can't take his posts in political threads seriously.
Most everybody here knows this and usually has fun with it/talks around him.
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      03-26-2020, 03:31 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Most everybody here knows this and usually has fun with it/talks around him.
Yes - to watch Anglo, who professes to be a libertarian argue so strongly for government mandating what a private company can and cannot do, that you - someone who is certainly liberal in their beliefs - say 'whoa man, that's too far' - well, I don't have anything further.

Crazy times man.

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      03-26-2020, 03:37 PM   #66
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Hmmm, interesting. I see a lot of self-identifying "conservatives" on here that don't seem to like free markets much.

I voted no.
dont worry, if obama proposed this they would be against it.

the left sheep and the right sheep are both equally trash.
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