[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I want to read technical spec of the active sensors in that vertical grille on i4. My guess is it actually can work above 130mph(the limit of current ACC).

You'd trust an automated speed control system whilst travelling 58m/s?

At that speed radar ACC only has less than 3 seconds of range and it takes over 5 seconds to come to a stop. No thanks.

Loving the blind faith on radar technology. Rain and fog, etc. My BMW (Continental actually) radar gives up in rain and the lightest flakes of snow. Does it worry me? No, you'd be a complete idiot for relying on such a system in less than fair weather conditions.

Then there's the mention of a vision system not being good enough for manufacturers like BMW…..this is despite BMW using vision only ACC systems (which are nowhere near as advanced as Tesla hardware).

These things are driving aids folks, no one proclaims that they are FSD, not even Tesla (although admittedly the name of the system suggests it).

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

You'd trust an automated speed control system whilst travelling 58m/s?

At that speed radar ACC only has less than 3 seconds of range and it takes over 5 seconds to come to a stop. No thanks.

Loving the blind faith on radar technology. Rain and fog, etc. My BMW (Continental actually) radar gives up in rain and the lightest flakes of snow. Does it worry me? No, you'd be a complete idiot for relying on such a system in less than fair weather conditions.

Then there's the mention of a vision system not being good enough for manufacturers like BMW…..this is despite BMW using vision only ACC systems (which are nowhere near as advanced as Tesla hardware).

These things are driving aids folks, no one proclaims that they are FSD, not even Tesla (although admittedly the name of the system suggests it).

I do not trust any driver assist let alone FSD(that Tesla sill advertises on its website at this minute).

I do want to know the absolute strengths and weaknesses of each of these offerings.

As far as BMW vision ACC, do u have a link to it? BMW advertises its ACC is up to 130mph with radar tech. BMW also has front collision warning that uses KAFAS camera(vision), but that is only up to 30mph(or is it 40mph?)


https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview

Full Self-Driving Capability
$10,000

• Navigate on Autopilot
• Auto Lane Change
• Autopark
• Summon
• Full Self-Driving Computer
• Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

You'd trust an automated speed control system whilst travelling 58m/s?

At that speed radar ACC only has less than 3 seconds of range and it takes over 5 seconds to come to a stop. No thanks.

Loving the blind faith on radar technology. Rain and fog, etc. My BMW (Continental actually) radar gives up in rain and the lightest flakes of snow. Does it worry me? No, you'd be a complete idiot for relying on such a system in less than fair weather conditions.

Then there's the mention of a vision system not being good enough for manufacturers like BMW…..this is despite BMW using vision only ACC systems (which are nowhere near as advanced as Tesla hardware).

These things are driving aids folks, no one proclaims that they are FSD, not even Tesla (although admittedly the name of the system suggests it).

I don't trust any to drive me because they are driver assist (ADAS L2/L2+).

Tesla absolutely markets their system as "Full Self Driving" and calls it "Auto Pilot". People don't read the manual and consistently find ways to fool the system into thinking they are still holding the wheel.

I cannot count the number of times I have seen people artificially providing resistance on the wheel so they can be fully engaged in texting or some.other activity.

Not sure what year your car is but here is what BMW says
http://www.bavarianmw.com/guide-66.html

[Nahlem]

I do like driver aids they can be helpful a lot of times but full self driving as for now i think its more complicated then that.

For example humans are very irrational beings and we do tend to do weird stuff in traffic sometimes, and i think any computer out there have a hard time predicting all types of human behaviours that can occur in traffic everything from the yo-yo drivers who one second drives below speed limit to the next way over the limit, or someone getting sick.

I think that is a hard obstacle to overcome but not impossible. I would believe in more of a system like this working on highways where highways are a bit more "uncomplicated" where traffic goes in one direction only so to speak. In those cases i could believe in a form of setup like the aviation industry has with air planes being tracked with transponders activated when in the air, But think of such a system on the highways and all cars have this setup then it might work better and i would believe that we could then see speed limits well over 250 Km/h on highways just because that is easier to predict for a computer then all people in traffic with all their own wills doing all kind of stuff, that is hard for a computer even the best ones out there.

But for this system to work all cars would have to be equipped with such systems and with integrity being a very high focus as of late i would have a hard time seeing all people going for this option. But most wouldn't want to be tracked like that in their cars. And highways have a tendency to be publicly funded so you can't exclude people from using them because they don't want transponders in their cars like that but maybe a lane dedicated to self driving cars with speeds well over 250 Km/h who is only to be used by those with that type of cars and those who opted in for such a transponder in their cars and emergency services of course.

So my take on "Auto Pilot" in cars it can work but for it to work "flawless" and we all know there is no flawless systems out there, all would have to opt in or it would have to be like a only lane on a highway for such cars but that in my opinion sounds very expensive and again people tend to do irrational stuff so it wouldn't be surprising if suddenly someone was in that lane and caused a major accident because again we are humans and we do weird stuff in traffic.

So it is doable but harder then Tesla makes it out to be or any other auto maker for that part when it comes to "Auto Pilot" features.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I don't trust any to drive me because they are driver assist (ADAS L2/L2+).

Tesla absolutely markets their system as "Full Self Driving" and calls it "Auto Pilot". People don't read the manual and consistently find ways to fool the system into thinking they are still holding the wheel.

I cannot count the number of times I have seen people artificially providing resistance on the wheel so they can be fully engaged in texting or some.other activity.

Not sure what year your car is but here is what BMW says
http://www.bavarianmw.com/guide-66.html

Yes and BMW markets itself as the "ultimate driving machine". It's all just marketing waffle.

The fact is, the Tesla manual distinctly says FSD is a driver aid. From Tesla "Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment."
……this is both in the sales chatter and the owners manual. Yet the moronic few still feel safe enough to sleep in the passenger seat as the car fully self drives. In a way a testament to how good the Tesla system is. I hardly trust another human let alone a driving bot

Full self driving does scare me, take a look at the latest Beta Tesla FSD on YouTube at the moment. The car now inches into busy traffic and is generally more aggressive to mimic what you often have to do as a human driver to get anywhere on congested roads. Scary, but shows just how much of a challenge full self driving is and this is true of all hardware technology systems.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Yes and BMW markets itself as the "ultimate driving machine". It's all just marketing waffle.

The fact is, the Tesla manual distinctly says FSD is a driver aid. From Tesla "Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment."
……this is both in the sales chatter and the owners manual. Yet the moronic few still feel safe enough to sleep in the passenger seat as the car fully self drives. In a way a testament to how good the Tesla system is. I hardly trust another human let alone a driving bot

Full self driving does scare me, take a look at the latest Beta Tesla FSD on YouTube at the moment. The car now inches into busy traffic and is generally more aggressive to mimic what you often have to do as a human driver to get anywhere on congested roads. Scary, but shows just how much of a challenge full self driving is and this is true of all hardware technology systems.

I think Tesla fans are quick to point out how good the Tesla system is, but in reality it is just not good enough.

In other words, Tesla claiming to be king of the hill of a dangerous tech does not make such tech safe.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Yes and BMW markets itself as the "ultimate driving machine". It's all just marketing waffle.

The fact is, the Tesla manual distinctly says FSD is a driver aid. From Tesla "Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment."
……this is both in the sales chatter and the owners manual. Yet the moronic few still feel safe enough to sleep in the passenger seat as the car fully self drives. In a way a testament to how good the Tesla system is. I hardly trust another human let alone a driving bot

Full self driving does scare me, take a look at the latest Beta Tesla FSD on YouTube at the moment. The car now inches into busy traffic and is generally more aggressive to mimic what you often have to do as a human driver to get anywhere on congested roads. Scary, but shows just how much of a challenge full self driving is and this is true of all hardware technology systems.

Marketing as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" is seen as marketing fluff and purely subjective.

FSD and Auto-Pilot have connotations built in. People see "Auto Pilot" and they relate that to planes that don't need the pilot active at the controls. They see and hear "Full Self Driving" and you know the rest. Here you post what the manual says but how many people read the manual "before" they buy a Tesla?

You can't really compare BMW's fluff to Tesla's dangerous hyperbole. Your argument is specious at best.

I am glad.ylu agree about the functionality though.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Yes and BMW markets itself as the "ultimate driving machine". It's all just marketing waffle.

The fact is, the Tesla manual distinctly says FSD is a driver aid. From Tesla "Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment."
……this is both in the sales chatter and the owners manual. Yet the moronic few still feel safe enough to sleep in the passenger seat as the car fully self drives. In a way a testament to how good the Tesla system is. I hardly trust another human let alone a driving bot

Full self driving does scare me, take a look at the latest Beta Tesla FSD on YouTube at the moment. The car now inches into busy traffic and is generally more aggressive to mimic what you often have to do as a human driver to get anywhere on congested roads. Scary, but shows just how much of a challenge full self driving is and this is true of all hardware technology systems.

Tesla's documents say that.

Then Elon goes on Twitter and COMPLETELY suggests otherwise. This is not just the few opportunistic morons. This is the leader of the cult leading the sheep into the wolf's den.

FSD should scare you. It drives, yes. But it does so in such a tentative manner than it's a menace to all the other cars around it.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Marketing as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" is seen as marketing fluff and purely subjective.

FSD and Auto-Pilot have connotations built in. People see "Auto Pilot" and they relate that to planes that don't need the pilot active at the controls. They see and hear "Full Self Driving" and you know the rest. Here you post what the manual says but how many people read the manual "before" they buy a Tesla?

You can't really compare BMW's fluff to Tesla's dangerous hyperbole. Your argument is specious at best.

I am glad.ylu agree about the functionality though.

Then people don't have a good understanding of what aviation autopilot means. It's not a button you press and a computer takes over. There are more than one tool in the autopilot systems e.g. climb/descent rate control , speed control, auto heading, altitude hold, etc. they don't all come on at once, in fact some are in direct conflict with others so that would be impossible. It is a pilots flying aid. As is Tesla autopilot…..a drivers aid. I don't think there is anything fast and loose with that terminology from Tesla. As a pilot you can't leave the cockpit or even catch a few winks at the yoke, but you can let go of the controls for long periods. Tesla don't allow that in Autopilot.

What is posted is from Tesla's sales blurb, the text you get when configuring a car. No smoke and mirrors there, sorry. Check it out for yourself.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Then people don't have a good understanding of what aviation autopilot means. It's not a button you press and a computer takes over. There are more than one tool in the autopilot systems e.g. climb/descent rate control , speed control, auto heading, altitude hold, etc. they don't all come on at once, in fact some are in direct conflict with others so that would be impossible. It is a pilots flying aid. As is Tesla autopilot…..a drivers aid. I don't think there is anything fast and loose with that terminology from Tesla. As a pilot you can't leave the cockpit or even catch a few winks at the yoke, but you can let go of the controls for long periods. Tesla don't allow that in Autopilot.

What is posted is from Tesla's sales blurb, the text you get when configuring a car. No smoke and mirrors there, sorry. Check it out for yourself.

FAA handbook says this of auto flight control/autopilot, which does fly without human control. On the other hand, Tesla autopilot requires human controls.

"The two-axis autopilot system installed in most general aviation aircraft controls the pitch and roll of the aircraft. The autopilot can operate independently, controlling heading and altitude, or it can be coupled to a navigation system and fly a programmed course or an approach with glideslope"

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Then people don't have a good understanding of what aviation autopilot means. It's not a button you press and a computer takes over. There are more than one tool in the autopilot systems e.g. climb/descent rate control , speed control, auto heading, altitude hold, etc. they don't all come on at once, in fact some are in direct conflict with others so that would be impossible. It is a pilots flying aid. As is Tesla autopilot…..a drivers aid. I don't think there is anything fast and loose with that terminology from Tesla. As a pilot you can't leave the cockpit or even catch a few winks at the yoke, but you can let go of the controls for long periods. Tesla don't allow that in Autopilot.

What is posted is from Tesla's sales blurb, the text you get when configuring a car. No smoke and mirrors there, sorry. Check it out for yourself.

Of course, most of the general population does not have a good understanding of how an aviation autopilot works. That is absolutely foreseeable and why would anyone expect differently? When we write general population consumer market research surveys, we constrain the language to an 8th grade level. Why would anyone even suggest that the gen pop might/should know how a technical aspect of aircraft functions? For commonly understood usage, here is a dictionary definiton of "automatic":

adjective
having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently:

Tesla knew exactly what it was doing when it used the term "Auto"-anything. What intervention is needed once someone sets the ATC - "automatic temperature control", sometimes abbreviated as AutoTemp? It was also foreseeable that with such an intentionally misleading term, we would see those who sleep, read, jump into the passenger seat, moon passing cars, have sex, etc. or allow this to work:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tapt...device-weight/

...while the vehicle attempts to independently operate itself. They were as much as invited to try to see the vehicle operate independently without driver involvement or attention.

Let's recognize Tesla for what they did successfully accomplish...e.g. batteries, motors, and sales volumes that pushed an industry to react. Beyond that, they are very open to a variety of accusations of misdeeds.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Let's recognize Tesla for what they did successfully accomplish...e.g. batteries, motors, and sales volumes that pushed an industry to react. Beyond that, they are very open to a variety of accusations of misdeeds.

Tesla has not owned nor R&D battery tech until the past few yrs, and motors are century old tech, so on both fronts Tesla do not contribute much.

They did pioneer battery packaging and BMS, but they are also adamant to push safety boundaries.

Tesla did push the industry to react while the battery techs are not yet ready, so I am not sure that is a good thing ....

[techwhiz1]

Tesla fast and.loose with safety.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10...pooks-drivers/


Shouldn't be testing with regular folks. This is the type of thing the feds are ticked off about.

I'll pass.


TM3P is now $69K (loaded)
A fully loaded i4 M50 will probably run $75K loaded minus a $7500 tax credit puts a loaded M50 and TM3P exactly in the same price range. The crazy price increases from Tesla.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

TM3P is now $69K (loaded)
A fully loaded i4 M50 will probably run $75K loaded minus a $7500 tax credit puts a loaded M50 and TM3P exactly in the same price range. The crazy price increases from Tesla.

The Model 3 Performance is $58K UNLESS you add the Full Self Driving option, which I wouldn't (and didn't).

A comparably-equipped i4 M50 will be $80K-ish - so despite the federal tax rebate, still at least $15K more, for less space, less efficiency and "1000 lbs. more "road-hugging weight". Plus, you get to rely on the sh*t show that is the EA network for long-distance driving.

I'll pass.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

The Model 3 Performance is $58K UNLESS you add the Full Self Driving option, which I wouldn't (and didn't).

A comparably-equipped i4 M50 will be $80K-ish - so despite the federal tax rebate, still at least $15K more, for less space, less efficiency and "1000 lbs. more "road-hugging weight". Plus, you get to rely on the sh*t show that is the EA network for long-distance driving.

I'll pass.

You are loading up the or M50 but not getting FSD?

That's not apples to apples. If you aren't doing FSD then why all the tech and options on the M50?

The best comparison is either both cars at base or both with all the options. Then it's a wash with the $7500 credit. (US) Also I've done the pricing on the UK and Canadian websites and all options works out to about $10k. You also don't opt for leather in the BMW, laser lights, carbon package and other add ons that are NOT available on the TM3.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

...The best comparison is either both cars at base or both with all the options...

False, because the only extra cost option on the Tesla (other than FSD) is paint color. Otherwise they only come one way - loaded.

To match the Tesla's standard equipment level requires adding multiple extra-cost options to the i4, at least according to the order guides from other countries.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

False, because the only extra cost option on the Tesla (other than FSD) is paint color. Otherwise they only come one way - loaded.

To match the Tesla's standard equipment level requires adding multiple extra-cost options to the i4, at least according to the order guides from other countries.

The only thing that needed to be added was the high end tech package. That actually puts you at the same level ADAS as a TM3 with FSD, but that's fine.

Leather isn't an option on a TM3 and only black or white interior. No option for trim so the default on the BMW.

The car is $83k Canadian which works out to be about $66k US but we'll up it a few more grand since the US pricing will be slightly different and call it $69k.

Subtract the $7500 and you get back down to about $60k.

A fully loaded M50 in Canada is $98k which is shy of the $80k. But using that number is leather, M seats, leather dash, carbon trim, etc... That is not even close to a valid comparison.

Here is the equivalent to a TM3P on the Canada website.

https://configure.bmw.ca/en_CA/configid/88k8iet3

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

That is not even close to a valid comparison.

We had a work lunch this week and volunteered to be in back seats of Model 3 as no one likes the ride.

The driver and front passenger are relatively OK, but rear passengers get tossed around and hit their heads ....

And this week surged as Hertz's 100k order, but it appears investors forget that Tesla leases have no buyouts such that those lease returns are likely the ones shipped to Hertz.

[chadkoepf]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

False, because the only extra cost option on the Tesla (other than FSD) is paint color. Otherwise they only come one way - loaded.

To match the Tesla's standard equipment level requires adding multiple extra-cost options to the i4, at least according to the order guides from other countries.

as a tesla owner, I can objectively say that "loaded" is in the eye of the beholder. the tesla feels like driving a mid level toyota. if you are okay with that, then more power to you, but it's not a BMW and it never will be, regardless of how much "tech" they put into their "self driving" system that freaks out everytime a lane becomes two, or becomes one again, or god forbid you come across a round-a-bout.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by chadkoepf

as a tesla owner, I can objectively say that "loaded" is in the eye of the beholder...

As a Tesla owner who never had any interest in FSD, and as someone who’s owned German luxury cars for the past 25+ years, I can objectively say that my Model 3P isn’t missing anything of substance when compared to those German cars.

Quilted leather? Missing. Don’t care - the Tesla’s seats are more comfortable, despite not being “leather” at all.

Turbos? Missing - which makes the Tesla SO much quicker and more fun in day-to-day driving that it’s ridiculous.

So yep, “eye of the beholder”.

If traditional luxury trappings are important to you, a Tesla isn’t for you.

If you’re interested in seeing where cars are headed, rather than where they’ve been, Tesla is for you.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

As a Tesla owner who never had any interest in FSD, and as someone who’s owned German luxury cars for the past 25+ years, I can objectively say that my Model 3P isn’t missing anything of substance when compared to those German cars.

Except it is missing Cross Traffic Alert, Blind Spot Indicator, HUD, 360 Surround view, Massage Seats, CarPlay, Apple Music native app, anti-dazzle high beam or the ability to set way-points in Navigation.

And I am sure that you, like most other Tesla owners, don't care any of those and would claim that they are not important.

But for me, those are deal-breakers, sorry.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

As a Tesla owner who never had any interest in FSD, and as someone who’s owned German luxury cars for the past 25+ years, I can objectively say that my Model 3P isn’t missing anything of substance when compared to those German cars.

Quilted leather? Missing. Don’t care - the Tesla’s seats are more comfortable, despite not being “leather” at all.

Turbos? Missing - which makes the Tesla SO much quicker and more fun in day-to-day driving that it’s ridiculous.

So yep, “eye of the beholder”.

If traditional luxury trappings are important to you, a Tesla isn’t for you.

If you’re interested in seeing where cars are headed, rather than where they’ve been, Tesla is for you.

What Model 3 lacks is not traditional luxury trapping, but basic build quality and ride quality and safety margin.

The build quality can be argued as aesthetics, but what worries me is what is hidden from sight ....

For ride quality, no one in my workgroup wants to be at rear of Model 3, it was bumpy (as in head bumping) and harsh at the rear for sure. The Tesla seats are not that comfy neither.

And while others build safety partitions around its battery, Tesla is ready to double down and further reduce structures around battery pack in the name of efficiency.

I tend to stay away from Tesla as much as possible on the roads for my own safety.