[Windshieldfarmer]

I appreciate the many comments here about Tesla. I too owned a Model 3 and especially appreciated its well designed UI. I had EAP and it worked well though I like the hands off driving on my IX far better. I don’t like Elon’s antics…at times. My Model 3 was nearly flawless though build quality was mediocre. I won’t bash Tesla but there are many good reasons to purchase/lease an IX rather than a Model X. While some on this board have little appreciation for Tesla, I think the i3 was a far inferior product compared to the many Tesla models that were concurrently in production at the same time. BMW has long been playing catch up….and I believe they have.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by ricerboi

Guys relax. I’m probably in the top 1% of highest mileage iX’s (45k miles/16.5 months) with a mix of city/highway, monthly road trips and winter long road trips to cold places.

The throttling issue has happened TWICE. I’m aware of it but really not concerned about it. Let’s not get our feathers ruffled over what may or may not happen to most people 6-8 years down the road. Most aren’t going to notice 10-15% degradation over 8-10 years.

Remember, most people “abusing” the DCFC like me are only doing it for 2 years while it’s “free” through EA. After that, most of us will suck it up and install home AC/L2 charging. With that in mind, the “abuse” will subside after 2 years.

What you do, that is use dcfc for all your charging, is not what I would call abuse. It is not ideal, but not at the abusive end of the spectrum in my books fwiw. Dcfc 4 times a day, every day and you'll be past the abusive threshold. And that is what BMW is trying to prevent. If that means annoying the 1% of customers who will ever see the message, they will; they have shown through past actions that they will indeed impose limits like this to prevent premature wear on items e.g. limiting the use of launch control, forcing a lower red line until the engine is up to temp, etc.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

No Kool-Aid here, just a little more pragmatic or realistic view of things...

Tesla recently published that they only see 12% battery degradation after 200K miles. That's their data advantage they claim - they have first hand info about charging patterns over long term that nobody else has.

That is a completely useless thing to bring up relative to the conversation about Tesla allowing you to abuse its battery pack. But let's use it in a constructive way.

Their own stats show only a 12% degredation after 200k miles of average usage. Let's take their numbers at face value even if they have a history of lying about everything (quite frankly it helps prove my point anyway). We have examples of a battery packs being supercharged multiple times a day with no restriction to prevent damage. Your argument is that Tesla has better tech/knowledge about batteries and needs not throttle their fast charging. My argument is that they have nothing special and the people charging that way are indeed damaging their battery packs.

What do we see in the real world? Your argument would have us expect that at 140k - 150k miles in 2-3 years, these people would see no significant extra degredation and would be sitting at around say approx 10% degredation with plenty of life left in their packs for years and years to come. What we actually see is that the packs treated this way are damaged beyond repair (as per Tesla) at somewhere near 140k miles and need to be completely replaced. If you keep believing that they have some magic behind the scenes that nobody else knows about, which makes their packs immune to the extra degredation and damage caused by the extra heat this subjects the packs to, then there is not much anyone can do to change your mind as it is akin to arguing about religion with people (for the record my imaginary deity is the real one). But don't be shocked when more rational people object to you saying this like sor did.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

That is a completely useless thing to bring up relative to the conversation about Tesla allowing you to abuse its battery pack. But let's use it in a constructive way.

I think you are really missing the point. Every of them.

I did not cite that reference because I believe it. I cited it as an example of what they can do because they have more data and experience than anyone else. Further, because they have more data, they can make data-based decisions that nobody else can. I do not think they have any dark magic.

That said, that study does seem to align with HV battery experience across the industry. Remember 20 years ago when all the haters argued that the hybrid batteries would all be shot in 7 years? They didn't. More recently, the CEO of Nissan commented that most of the Leafs on the road still have their original batteries. I have several friends with 10 YO Leafs and they love them. The big lesson is that HV batteries are lasting far longer than anyone expected, and that is good.

[VersatenBMW]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I think you are really missing the point. Every of them.

I did not cite that reference because I believe it. I cited it as an example of what they can do because they have more data and experience than anyone else. Further, because they have more data, they can make data-based decisions that nobody else can. I do not think they have any dark magic.

That said, that study does seem to align with HV battery experience across the industry. Remember 20 years ago when all the haters argued that the hybrid batteries would all be shot in 7 years? They didn't. More recently, the CEO of Nissan commented that most of the Leafs on the road still have their original batteries. I have several friends with 10 YO Leafs and they love them. The big lesson is that HV batteries are lasting far longer than anyone expected, and that is good.

I just turned in my x45e plug in hybrid x5 at tens of lease before getting my iX m60. In the U.S. , BMW limits the x45e battery capacity to 17 kWh. In Europe, the same battery pack is limited to 21 kWh. So we can all speculate on how BMW is managing the US market to limit liability.

[freshxdough]

Very normal. And in documentation of the vehicle. Maybe even in the owners manual somewhere too.

[Jason Hunt]

Just experienced DC Charging throttling issue. This is new. I did the same trip last year Toronto to Naples and drove straight through. Never had an issue. This year on the way down and back after about 24hrs the software reduced my charging speed to 75kw. So a 40min charge becomes a 1hr20min charge. I am going to speak to my dealer and post this experience widely. This is a fundamental change in how the car operates. I purchased a 525km range vehicle specifically because we do this trip. I do not believe BMW can reduce the specifications of the car without my consent.

[ghaffari46]

Just a silly question, are you guys checking speed ( amps) of charging? Sometimes my ix drop it from 48 to 6 after couple of back to back charging, then I have to manually increase it to 48.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

Just a silly question, are you guys checking speed ( amps) of charging? Sometimes my ix drop it from 48 to 6 after couple of back to back charging, then I have to manually increase it to 48.

Unfortunately, it is difficult with the iX. The MyBMW app does not display current or rate of charge anywhere I could find. It is only visible on the dash. Sometimes I look at my ChargePoint app to see, but that is just a graph view and not a number. So, I pretty much just plug and forget it.

[Windshieldfarmer]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

Just a silly question, are you guys checking speed ( amps) of charging? Sometimes my ix drop it from 48 to 6 after couple of back to back charging, then I have to manually increase it to 48.

It states in the most recent software update that the charging rate will reduce to 6 amps with the new software install. Otherwise I do not recall experiencing this…

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

Just a silly question, are you guys checking speed ( amps) of charging? Sometimes my ix drop it from 48 to 6 after couple of back to back charging, then I have to manually increase it to 48.

Originally Posted by Windshieldfarmer

It states in the most recent software update that the charging rate will reduce to 6 amps with the new software install. Otherwise I do not recall experiencing this…

This thread is about DC charging. Not AC charging.

I have yet to experience throttling from DC charging but perhaps it’s because I try to AC charge overnight on long trips and only DC charge once or twice in between?

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by Jason Hunt

Just experienced DC Charging throttling issue. This is new. I did the same trip last year Toronto to Naples and drove straight through. Never had an issue. This year on the way down and back after about 24hrs the software reduced my charging speed to 75kw. So a 40min charge becomes a 1hr20min charge. I am going to speak to my dealer and post this experience widely. This is a fundamental change in how the car operates. I purchased a 525km range vehicle specifically because we do this trip. I do not believe BMW can reduce the specifications of the car without my consent.

100% agree with you! Bjorn Nyland on YouTube hypothesized that this throttling was introduced in a software update. If true, it was never disclosed and does, indeed, alter the technical performance of the vehicle after purchase.

The in-vehicle owner's manual and charging tips state that DCFC would be reduced after too many charges, but I'm not clear whether this language was introduced after a software update or if it always existed in the printed owner's manual that came with the car.

[Windshieldfarmer]

I am quite sure somewhere along the line we all voluntarily consented to the software changes that are provided pursuant to the updates. While I understand the frustration with throttled DC charging, I seriously doubt there is a legal leg to stand on. Tesla does not do this…I wonder if BMW is just being overly conservative…again. I also wonder if we were to plug in for a short time at a L2 charger if that would reset the ability to fast charge. Just an idea….

[LVBMW]

Originally Posted by Windshieldfarmer

I am quite sure somewhere along the line we all voluntarily consented to the software changes that are provided pursuant to the updates. While I understand the frustration with throttled DC charging, I seriously doubt there is a legal leg to stand on. Tesla does not do this…I wonder if BMW is just being overly conservative…again. I also wonder if we were to plug in for a short time at a L2 charger if that would reset the ability to fast charge. Just an idea….

I agree. I mean, the manual also says too many launch controls could result in reduced torque for future launches. That's obviously unrelated to charging, but it's another way the performance is altered after purchase whether we like it or not.

[Windshieldfarmer]

Originally Posted by LVBMW

I agree. I mean, the manual also says too many launch controls could result in reduced torque for future launches. That's obviously unrelated to charging, but it's another way the performance is altered after purchase whether we like it or not.

Makes sense…it’s basically telling us vehicle performance can be impacted by how we use/operate the equipment. I’m sure the throttling is done to reduce warranty claims…though I don’t really understand how successive DC charges are especially harmful…but I’m not a battery chemist.

[thebishman]

Originally Posted by Windshieldfarmer

Makes sense…it’s basically telling us vehicle performance can be impacted by how we use/operate the equipment. I’m sure the throttling is done to reduce warranty claims…though I don’t really understand how successive DC charges are especially harmful…but I’m not a battery chemist.

The director of the BMS division at BMW needs to take the Audi BMS manger out for drinks. The etron can sustain about 140kWhr charging up to about 90%. Makes a difference when your next planned stop is between 80%-95% SoC away.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by thebishman

The director of the BMS division at BMW needs to take the Audi BMS manger out for drinks. The etron can sustain about 140kWhr charging up to about 90%. Makes a difference when your next planned stop is between 80%-95% SoC away.

I think you mean 140kW. But I wouldn’t want any Audi software on the BMW. The Audi software suite is a hot mess. But I agree that BMW needs to step up the charging speed. It’s not that BMW is terrible. It’s okay. But there is room for improvement and it probably starts with a higher voltage pack.

[thebishman]

Originally Posted by Pictor

I think you mean 140kW. But I wouldn’t want any Audi software on the BMW. The Audi software suite is a hot mess. But I agree that BMW needs to step up the charging speed. It’s not that BMW is terrible. It’s okay. But there is room for improvement and it probably starts with a higher voltage pack.

Sorry, 140kW is correct.

But the Battery Management System and its allowance of an almost completely flat charge curve up to a very high SoC is the one area that Audi did do well. As for the MMI? Not so much!

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by Windshieldfarmer

Tesla does not do this…

Actually, Tesla did do it once that we know of. In 2019 Tesla issued a software update that significantly reduced the DCFC rate for all cars with 85 kWh packs. At the time Tesla stated it did so to "ensure the longevity of the pack." It upset many thousands of Tesla owners, some of whom retained counsel threatening a class-action. Unfortunately, it never achieved class status and the original plaintiffs either settled or dismissed the suit.

Not coincidentally, most of these owners had free unlimited supercharging. Draw your own conclusions.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

Actually, Tesla did do it once that we know of. In 2019 Tesla issued a software update that significantly reduced the DCFC rate for all cars with 85 kWh packs. At the time Tesla stated it did so to "ensure the longevity of the pack." It upset many thousands of Tesla owners, some of whom retained counsel threatening a class-action. Unfortunately, it never achieved class status and the original plaintiffs either settled or dismissed the suit.

Not coincidentally, most of these owners had free unlimited supercharging. Draw your own conclusions.

To be fair, he probably meant that they don't throttle consecutive DCFC sessions, which I don't think they do on their vehicles, but that's also how you end up with people that have to replace their battery packs at 140k miles as I mentioned earlier in the thread. And as you point out, they permanently gimped a bunch of their older cars via software update when they realised it was going to cause them issues and bad press.

Different approaches by the different companies, and not surprising that BMW would take a conservative approach. It sucks that BMW were simply not upfront about the change and people affected by it have every right to be mad. Legally, they are likely well within their rights to update the charging behavior, but those actually affected can talk to their dealer and try to work something out if for them it is not acceptable for their long road trips anymore. You could get a sweet deal to get a replacement vehicle without taking a huge loss from a sympathetic dealer if it is of huge importance to you.

[Windshieldfarmer]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

To be fair, he probably meant that they don't throttle consecutive DCFC sessions, which I don't think they do on their vehicles, but that's also how you end up with people that have to replace their battery packs at 140k miles as I mentioned earlier in the thread. And as you point out, they permanently gimped a bunch of their older cars via software update when they realised it was going to cause them issues and bad press.

Different approaches by the different companies, and not surprising that BMW would take a conservative approach. It sucks that BMW were simply not upfront about the change and people affected by it have every right to be mad. Legally, they are likely well within their rights to update the charging behavior, but those actually affected can talk to their dealer and try to work something out if for them it is not acceptable for their long road trips anymore. You could get a sweet deal to get a replacement vehicle without taking a huge loss from a sympathetic dealer if it is of huge importance to you.

I should clarify…Tesla never did this to my Model 3 in 3 years of ownership during several trips where I used superchargers sequentially. I think the frustrating part is not understanding the scenarios when throttling might be applied to our IXs. Please tell us BMW…..

[Fast400]

I believe for future folks planning long trips like the one in this thread, the key is to charge AC at the end of the first leg of the trip. The next day DC charging should be just fine. The key is slow charging once for every 3-4 DC fast charges.