[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by JackB316

Bingo. Somebody gets it.

Agree. If BMW (or Polestar) subtracted 500-1000 lbs of what makes a car a car, they'd have a Tesla Model 3: a battery+wheels+ an iPad.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by DeeKay

I jumped in a Model 3 after seven straight BMWs - finished it off with an F36 and the Model 3 is not a step down at all.

G20 M340i is quieter than Tesla Model 3 when cruising on the highway at 70 mph. And Tesla doesn't have an engine. That means Model 3 build and material quality is aggressively bad. I'm not talking about just parts fitting together here.

I don't hate Tesla. It feels very futuristic. But it's the future of Kia and Honda. Not BMW and Audi or any other decent premium car. And maybe I'm being unfair to Honda or Kia here, because they're both better than Tesla in terms of building a decent car...

[clee1982]

I wish it had more range, given how decent this already is without a dedicated platform, wonder how much better it would be with a dedicated electric platform

[InsideDK]

Originally Posted by clee1982

I wish it had more range, given how decent this already is without a dedicated platform, wonder how much better it would be with a dedicated electric platform

Ix is made on a dedicated platform. And uses same 5th gen battery and drivetrain. Dosent make much difference in range I think, as they both use premium materials and therefore are heavier than a tesla.

[clee1982]

Originally Posted by InsideDK

Ix is made on a dedicated platform. And uses same 5th gen battery and drivetrain. Dosent make much difference in range I think, as they both use premium materials and therefore are heavier than a tesla.

Ix is bigger though, that thing is like bigger than X5 right?

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by clee1982

Ix is bigger though, that thing is like bigger than X5 right?

I think it's as long as an X5, as low as an X6 and has the X7 wheelbase and wheel sizes.

But really, this is the wrong thread to talk about the iX.

[DES_MX]

Regarding the fierce weight discussion, lets not forget one important argument - BMW i4 has ~84.5 gross / 81.5 net kwh battery, while Tesla Model 3 (most versions) has ~76 kwh battery (that's with the latest 2021 (Q2) refresh long range model now has 82 kwh gross / 76~ net upgrade). Before Q2 2021, the Model 3 had ~71 kwh net capacity.

My point? Simple. Next to all the quality upgrades that i4 has vs model 3, it also has more batteries, with similar battery density. Also, the i40 version, will travel longer than model 3 long range, that's pretty clear (wait and see).

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by InsideDK

Ix is made on a dedicated platform. And uses same 5th gen battery and drivetrain. Dosent make much difference in range I think, as they both use premium materials and therefore are heavier than a tesla.

Not really, iX is also based on CLAR platform. That's why it can be manufactured in the same production line as other CLAR cars.

BMW has no dedicated EV platform.
Usually, dedicatd EV platform would necessitate its own dedicated production line. BMW has decided against it, and I think this was not a wise decision.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

BMW has no dedicated EV platform.
Usually, dedicatd EV platform would necessitate its own dedicated production line. BMW has decided against it, and I think this was not a wise decision.

I observe the same facts but come to a different conclusion. The decision about CLAR for this program was made about 4-5 years ago, given the platform development lead times. Then, the market for electric vehicles was quite uncertain. in 2016, the US industry overall first choice intention for an electric vehicle was about 3%. BMW had to decide whether to create a dedicated BEV platform, which would not have flexibiltiy for ICE, or design a platform inherently flexible to allow for either, so that they could move with the market in its' infancy. This also applied to facilitizing an assembly plant, with measuring the risk of a plant far underusing its capacity if the BEV market did not eventuate. They made a strategic decision for flexibility based on the projections at that time. I think this showed great wisdom to optimize the overall production capability of the company.

Since then, we have seen some new entrants, with no established infrastructure they needed to support, champion their new "skateboards". That is great for the industry overall as it shows the future. These companies had no legacy costs/burden to support and were free to innovate. Good for them! As for the consumer, this brings more choice. As for BMW, with the BEV market now more certain, no doubt their own "skateboard" is in development. They took a financially conservative approach. We will best understand any actual consumer-experienced compromises made for the trade-off of flexibility for this first generation of high volume BEV products once we drive them and read the full road test reviews. Doomsayers about platform flexibility are very premature at this time.

[InsideDK]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Not really, iX is also based on CLAR platform. That's why it can be manufactured in the same production line as other CLAR cars.

BMW has no dedicated EV platform.
Usually, dedicatd EV platform would necessitate its own dedicated production line. BMW has decided against it, and I think this was not a wise decision.

I thought the ix was made on the bespoke EV platform? Which BMW will only use for the ix

https://www.bmwblog.com/2020/11/16/b...-architecture/

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by InsideDK

I thought the ix was made on the bespoke EV platform? Which BMW will only use for the ix

I think that article was mistaken or it didn't make it clear.
Both iX and i4 are using modified CLAR platform, with iX using a bespoke modified one not being used by other models.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Since then, we have seen some new entrants, with no established infrastructure they needed to support, champion their new "skateboards". That is great for the industry overall as it shows the future. These companies had no legacy costs/burden to support and were free to innovate. Good for them!

But the main concern is that almost all BMW competitors like Mercedes and Audi/VW now have dedicated "skateboard" EV platform.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

But the main concern is that almost all BMW competitors like Mercedes and Audi/VW now have dedicated "skateboard" EV platform.

There are two main points in response:

1) That should not be a main concern. The main concern should be the deliverable. How does the product perform? Once we know that, we can discuss the root causes. An expression in our industry is, "Consumers don't buy features. They buy benefits." The result is what matters most to most buyers. If the i4 turns out to be a wonderful car to drive, the sharing and flexibility of the platform won't be a handicap, but an advantage. If not, BMW will have learned a lesson from their (perhaps necessary?) fiscal conservatism. Patience is best at the moment.

2) Differently situated companies need to consider different strategies. BMW is the "small guy" among the German leaders and needs to consider their plans perhaps differently than companies much larger. For MB, for example, their first dedicated EVA platform is for the low-volume, far more expensive S Class in a production environment where they can take the calculated risk on market acceptance, and later, the E. Their MMA platform for medium size cars is not until 2025. MB's decision-making did not allow them to have a comparable higher-volume middle market BEV to a BMW i4 in-market as soon as BMW's flexibility does.

BMW will have a new BEV platform in 2025 (reported by insideevs.com), matching MB timing, but even then, they intend to create a BEV platform, but allow for flexible use for ICE or hydrogen fuel cell! They have "flex" as part of their basic strategy for platform development. This is a clean sheet platform called (repeating history), the "New Class", versus the modifications CLAR needed to be BEV-compatible. New Class will eventually replace the CLAR as their product plans evolve.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

BMW will have a new BEV platform in 2025 (reported by insideevs.com), matching MB timing, but even then, they intend to create a BEV platform, but allow for flexible use for ICE or hydrogen fuel cell!

I wish BMW would just drop hydrogen fuel cell - it is a dead end, diverting funds from other developments and will never grow out its niche market.

[DeeKay]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

G20 M340i is quieter than Tesla Model 3 when cruising on the highway at 70 mph. And Tesla doesn't have an engine. That means Model 3 build and material quality is aggressively bad. I'm not talking about just parts fitting together here.

I don't hate Tesla. It feels very futuristic. But it's the future of Kia and Honda. Not BMW and Audi or any other decent premium car. And maybe I'm being unfair to Honda or Kia here, because they're both better than Tesla in terms of building a decent car...

Agree the sound insulation could have been better - don't think it's terrible materials as much as just weight savings. EVs are pretty heavy beasts.

[sahajesh]

Originally Posted by ParkNuts

Yeah, big ouchie on the weight. It's on par with the Polestar 2 but Model 3 still wins handily on the scale at <4,100. This is the effect of cramming batteries into an ICE chassis. Goes to show how much of a leap Tesla has on the competition given that their next gen battery structure is going to literally be baked into the shell of the car - "10% mass reduction, 14% range increase opportunity, 370 fewer parts."

You can rely on Tesla to have 20% worse interior build quality but they won't say that.

Still, if you want to be be green and give absolutely zero fucks about what your car actually feels like to drive, then yeah get a Tesla.

[ParkNuts]

Originally Posted by sahajesh

You can rely on Tesla to have 20% worse interior build quality but they won't say that.

Still, if you want to be be green and give absolutely zero fucks about what your car actually feels like to drive, then yeah get a Tesla.

This seems like a super generic response. Do you actually have any experience driving a Model 3? It's quite fun to drive. I moved from an E90 M3 ZCP to a Model 3 Performance and yes of course it's different, but almost all reviewers call it the most fun you can have in an electric car. I like the fast steering rack and it strikes a good balance between daily driver and way-too-quick for the streets. If you haven't driven one, I guarantee the first time you do you'll say "HOLY S" when you dip into the throttle. It's shocking.

[uuni]

Originally Posted by ParkNuts

This seems like a super generic response. Do you actually have any experience driving a Model 3? It's quite fun to drive. I moved from an E90 M3 ZCP to a Model 3 Performance and yes of course it's different, but almost all reviewers call it the most fun you can have in an electric car. I like the fast steering rack and it strikes a good balance between daily driver and way-too-quick for the streets. If you haven't driven one, I guarantee the first time you do you'll say "HOLY S" when you dip into the throttle. It's shocking.

Taycan is way more fun, so reviews are wrong.

I find Model 3 performance fun in straightline but corners are not fun. Chassis is not good enough. However in Taycan corners are fun. Thus i believe i4 will be also fun in corners and the value car of all of those thrée.

[chadkoepf]

I have a model 3, coming from 2 BMWs and an audi, the model three is like driving a tin can. a tin can that goes really fast straight, but everything else is a step down. paint, build quality, comfort, customer service, literally everything other than going in a straight line, is better in a german car. I can't wait to get into a german car thats as fast in a straight line, but also handles corners and doesn't feel like a low end camry on the interior

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

I wish BMW would just drop hydrogen fuel cell - it is a dead end, diverting funds from other developments and will never grow out its niche market.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

SANDY MUNRO: No Batteries Needed for Toyota to Rival Tesla

Well, if their best hope is some unproven technology that no fuel cell vehicle manufacturers have caught on, then good luck to them.
Even Sandy knows that nationwide hydrogen refueling infrastructure ain't going to happen.

[JorgenTrued]

.. to a real track test. Wish to see the track time from Nurburgring.