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      04-09-2020, 06:12 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Doesn't the ZF8 Supra pretty well keep up to or exceed the times of a DCT equipped M2C on some tracks and comparisons? I've not heard of any Supra review where anyone has complained about delayed shifting as the transmission has been largely praised in that car. Also I have not seen this delay with my ZF8 equipped X3MC. The ZF8 is a better transmission for everywhere but the track and if you track your car a lot then you may have a beef as DCT's do downshift fractionally faster but if you don't then complaints like this are a bit of hot air.
I think the Supra is faster than the M2c because it rides on a newer chassis, has a shorter wheelbase, weighs less and has a lower center of gravity. The 2-series chassis is an older sport coupe chassis, while the Supra rides on a brand new sport car chassis.

That said, i too have not seen anyone complain about the transmission in the Supra beyond "we wish it were a manual."
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      04-09-2020, 08:43 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Doesn't the ZF8 Supra pretty well keep up to or exceed the times of a DCT equipped M2C on some tracks and comparisons? I've not heard of any Supra review where anyone has complained about delayed shifting as the transmission has been largely praised in that car. Also I have not seen this delay with my ZF8 equipped X3MC. The ZF8 is a better transmission for everywhere but the track and if you track your car a lot then you may have a beef as DCT's do downshift fractionally faster but if you don't then complaints like this are a bit of hot air.
Try braking hard into a corner then downshift sequentially with X3MC. It will lag. I'm not having that in my M3.

ZF8 is identical transmission in M240i(US spec) is identical and while I thought it was the fastest iteration of ZF8 I drove(only possible due to low torque, low boost setting of B58, notice the compression ratio of 11:1), I wasn't impressed by it. It will certainly not impress in new M3s that use higher torque application.

I do have to add I am an avid track guy. But this doesn't apply to just track driving, it also applies to daily driving when I want control over my car.
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      04-10-2020, 01:54 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.
It has been a poser car for people who cannot drive ever since the late 90's with people and their auto E36 M3's.
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      04-10-2020, 10:58 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It has been a poser car for people who cannot drive ever since the late 90's with people and their auto E36 M3's.
That's why US spec M3s are considered 330is.
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      04-10-2020, 07:54 PM   #181
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To be fair, not all dual-clutch transmissions shift as quickly as M-DCT. Try the gearbox in a GTR or AMG car, they all exhibit delays.

The fact of the matter is that we've all been a bit spoilt by how good M-DCT is. It's a close second to PDK with other dual-clutchers lagging further behind. In general, ZF8 is better than most dual-clutch 'boxes, even if it is a bit laggy compared to M-DCT and PDK.
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      04-14-2020, 08:46 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Redd View Post
To be fair, not all dual-clutch transmissions shift as quickly as M-DCT. Try the gearbox in a GTR or AMG car, they all exhibit delays.

The fact of the matter is that we've all been a bit spoilt by how good M-DCT is. It's a close second to PDK with other dual-clutchers lagging further behind. In general, ZF8 is better than most dual-clutch 'boxes, even if it is a bit laggy compared to M-DCT and PDK.
This.

M-DCT is arguably faster than the first generation PDK of 997s. After all, Getrag DCT transmission was originally developed to cater to the needs of Ferrari F458. The transmission control module (TCU) was developed accordingly to achieve consistent state-of-the-art shift speeds.
On the other hand, high-torque application ZF8s (ZF8-75HP) are what you find in the likes of VW Touareg/Cayenne; they are far from sports transmission. Drive any of these in manual mode, you get irritated within seconds due to slow shifting and put it in auto mode.
BMW's favorite marketing term "M-specific steptronic transmission" just means they had to tune the balls out of the ordinary ZF8 TCU to achieve something remotely acceptable from ZF8. It is fast for a ZF8 no doubt, but it is no DCT.

Hype is temporary, substance is perennial.

Compared to every generation of Ms that redefined driving dynamics through the extensive use of racing technology, this generation of M (starting F90) is diluted in that it struggles to propose any novel interpretation of the art of driving but rather react to and feed upon the ephemeral reminiscence of M's heydays, along with numerous cost-cutting in its presentation because "it is close enough".

I fear this generation of M won't be remembered fondly in the years to come.
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      04-14-2020, 10:11 AM   #183
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You are being a little disingenuous when you say that the ZF8 being installed in a Touareg/Cayenne makes it far from a sports transmission. You do realize it's a modular transmission and different internal clutch packs are used from application to application? Heck you can swap the torque converter for an electric motor in a hybrid application as the basic transmission is just the starting point to which internal hardware/software is selected based on the intentions of the implementation.

The ZF8 shifts as fast as most DCT's and the difference is simply in its refinement (not as abrupt and you lose the throttle blip) and the fact it's lighter than a DCT is a big bonus for a sporting application. The reality is that a millisecond quicker shifting from a DCT is more than offset by the heavier weight of the transmission in a sporting car application.

There are aspects of the DCT I really like such as the throttle blip and quickest downshifts possible but they are all clunky at times, the throttle tip-in lag sucks, and a lot of people simply don't like them in a daily driver. I personally have owned several from the old Getrag TC-SST in the EVO X which in SS-Mode shifted faster than the BMW versions to the VAG DSG's and I have enjoyed them despite their quirks. With the ZF8 I feel I am getting 98% of DCT the performance without the quirks so I don't think it's the end of the world as some are speculating if it's offered in the M3/M4.
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      04-15-2020, 04:54 AM   #184
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ZF 8HP is without question a better option than the DCT gearboxes.

You should feel what a tuned 8HP gearbox is like.. DCT doesn't have a chance. With the gearshift intervention limiters completely removed, it bangs harder than an SMG and shifts faster than a DCT could dream of.

The 8HP is an incredible gearbox. DCT's have a real rough time holding up in applications with greater than 700 ft/lbs in the long run, while the 8HP continues to impress.

BMW's test run with the 8HP was in the E70 X5 50i, the first E series to get it. It was impressive back then and much improved now.
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      04-15-2020, 07:54 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPMSport View Post
ZF 8HP is without question a better option than the DCT gearboxes.

You should feel what a tuned 8HP gearbox is like.. DCT doesn't have a chance. With the gearshift intervention limiters completely removed, it bangs harder than an SMG and shifts faster than a DCT could dream of.

The 8HP is an incredible gearbox. DCT's have a real rough time holding up in applications with greater than 700 ft/lbs in the long run, while the 8HP continues to impress.

BMW's test run with the 8HP was in the E70 X5 50i, the first E series to get it. It was impressive back then and much improved now.
I'm sure ZF8's ability to handle more torque is a dream to tuners, but I'm not looking for more power in any of my cars. ZF8 has a clear hardware limit of only being able to rev up to 7,300 rpm when oil cavitation starts to destroy the gearbox. I track my car and I want every rev possible from the engine.

I have also repeatedly stated my dissatisfaction of ZF8 isn't about the longitudinal acceleration in automatic mode, but its delayed response to manual shifts vs. DCT. It is good to know aftermarket software could resolve this issue, but then why wouldn't BMW release like that in the first place? I suspect it invokes a reliability issue that no longer justifies replacing DCT for reliability advantage.

Lastly, If the ZF8 was "so good", every supercar manufacturer would have adopted them long time ago despite packaging issues that some seem to point out. Simple fact is, it just doesn't have the traits that a keen driver appreciates.
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