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      03-21-2020, 03:21 PM   #3389
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
I can't think of any benefit to EV
They are heavy
They are inefficient
They are inconvenient

I might as well drive an electric fork lift around town.
I can't tell if this post is sarcastic or not.

-My EV is 2700 lbs. How much does your 3 series weight? Around 800(!) lbs more, IIRC.

-energy costs about the same per KW, regardless of how it's delivered (in this case gas or electricity). It costs me ~$1.40 of electricity to drive 100 miles in my EV. It costs me ~$15 in gas in my ICEVs to drive 100 miles. Sure seems like the EV is converting energy into motion more efficiently (and they do-- really good ICEV engine turn ~20% of the energy in gas into motion. Normal EVs turn ~90% of the energy in the battery into motion. Plus EVs regain energy when slowing down through regen).

-One of the primary reasons I DD an EV is that it's vastly more convenient than DDing my ICEVs. I used to have to go to the gas station twice a week (my daily commute is ~100 miles). It's dirty and a waste of time and money. You don't notice it, because you've done it your whole life- but once you get used to EV life, when you do have to go to a gas station is just feels like... a scam. Either way, leaving the house with a full battery every morning is VASTLY more convenient than routine gas filling-- even more so in recent times. That doesn't even factor in the connivence of all the maintenance it doesn't need-- oil changes, spark plugs, air filters, fuel filters, coils, trans fluid, diff fluid, bla bla black-- just tires and brake fluid every 2 years. The EV is now the car we use 100% of the time, so we don't have to interact with people at the gas station or touch the pump/card reader. Less disease vectors = better.
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      03-21-2020, 03:26 PM   #3390
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Many Canadians are socialists I suppose - I'd agree there can be a few benefits to it, and especially easy to see now ... as they say, in a bull market everyone's a capitalist, in recession, everyone's a socialist. That said, I'll always be a private industry guy - especially when you look at what SpaceX has been able to do that government hasn't.

In any event, yeah, Musk continues to insist there are plenty of ventilators while hospitals in NYC are doubling up and Seattle and California are screaming for more. The guy is completely denying reality - maybe that's his superpower ... if so it works in capitalism, not so much during a pandemic.
If you've read anything Ive posted here you know Im not a socialist, nor am I a fan of Musk.
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      03-21-2020, 03:30 PM   #3391
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I can't tell if this post is sarcastic or not.

-My EV is 2700 lbs. How much does your 3 series weight? Around 800(!) lbs more, IIRC.

-energy costs about the same per KW, regardless of how it's delivered (in this case gas or electricity). It costs me ~$1.40 of electricity to drive 100 miles in my EV. It costs me ~$15 in gas in my ICEVs to drive 100 miles. Sure seems like the EV is converting energy into motion more efficiently (and they do-- really good ICEV engine turn ~20% of the energy in gas into motion. Normal EVs turn ~90% of the energy in the battery into motion. Plus EVs regain energy when slowing down through regen).

-One of the primary reasons I DD an EV is that it's vastly more convenient than DDing my ICEVs. I used to have to go to the gas station twice a week (my daily commute is ~100 miles). It's dirty and a waste of time and money. You don't notice it, because you've done it your whole life- but once you get used to EV life, when you do have to go to a gas station is just feels like... a scam. Either way, leaving the house with a full battery every morning is VASTLY more convenient than routine gas filling-- even more so in recent times. That doesn't even factor in the connivence of all the maintenance it doesn't need-- oil changes, spark plugs, air filters, fuel filters, coils, trans fluid, diff fluid, bla bla black-- just tires and brake fluid every 2 years. The EV is now the car we use 100% of the time, so we don't have to interact with people at the gas station or touch the pump/card reader. Less disease vectors = better.
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      03-21-2020, 03:49 PM   #3392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
I can't think of any benefit to EV
They are heavy
They are inefficient
They are inconvenient

I might as well drive an electric fork lift around town.
I can't tell if this post is sarcastic or not.

-My EV is 2700 lbs. How much does your 3 series weight? Around 800(!) lbs more, IIRC.

-energy costs about the same per KW, regardless of how it's delivered (in this case gas or electricity). It costs me ~$1.40 of electricity to drive 100 miles in my EV. It costs me ~$15 in gas in my ICEVs to drive 100 miles. Sure seems like the EV is converting energy into motion more efficiently (and they do-- really good ICEV engine turn ~20% of the energy in gas into motion. Normal EVs turn ~90% of the energy in the battery into motion. Plus EVs regain energy when slowing down through regen).

-One of the primary reasons I DD an EV is that it's vastly more convenient than DDing my ICEVs. I used to have to go to the gas station twice a week (my daily commute is ~100 miles). It's dirty and a waste of time and money. You don't notice it, because you've done it your whole life- but once you get used to EV life, when you do have to go to a gas station is just feels like... a scam. Either way, leaving the house with a full battery every morning is VASTLY more convenient than routine gas filling-- even more so in recent times. That doesn't even factor in the connivence of all the maintenance it doesn't need-- oil changes, spark plugs, air filters, fuel filters, coils, trans fluid, diff fluid, bla bla black-- just tires and brake fluid every 2 years. The EV is now the car we use 100% of the time, so we don't have to interact with people at the gas station or touch the pump/card reader. Less disease vector better.

you're driving around a experimental vehicle that's not a patch historically or currently on the legendary 3 series that i've has in the past and driven 200000km with zero unscheduled maintenance and 10 years and lost 20k from buying price when I sold it and still being driven around by the nice old gentleman 2 km away from me. No faffing around daily lugging cables etc ni thank you.
quorn is superior but bacon will always be king!!!
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      03-21-2020, 04:51 PM   #3393
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
you're driving around a experimental vehicle that's not a patch historically or currently on the legendary 3 series that i've has in the past and driven 200000km with zero unscheduled maintenance and 10 years and lost 20k from buying price when I sold it and still being driven around by the nice old gentleman 2 km away from me. No faffing around daily lugging cables etc ni thank you.
quorn is superior but bacon will always be king!!!
Where I work, everyone where with an EV gets to charge it for free outside. They don't have a free gas station for me for some reason. Really disappointing.
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      03-21-2020, 05:00 PM   #3394
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with due respect you should get around and see how the 99% of the world and its peoples normally live and its it's not like where you live sadly
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      03-21-2020, 05:11 PM   #3395
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
with due respect you should get around and see how the 99% of the world and its peoples normally live and its it's not like where you live sadly

Where I come from that means exactly the opposite.
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      03-21-2020, 08:12 PM   #3396
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
I'm not sure which of my points you think this video refutes, but if you value his opinion... might I direct your attention to this video:

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      03-21-2020, 08:17 PM   #3397
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
you're driving around a experimental vehicle that's not a patch historically or currently on the legendary 3 series that i've has in the past and driven 200000km with zero unscheduled maintenance and 10 years and lost 20k from buying price when I sold it and still being driven around by the nice old gentleman 2 km away from me. No faffing around daily lugging cables etc ni thank you.
quorn is superior but bacon will always be king!!!
"not a patch"? I don't know what that means.

I've never carried a cable anywhere. If you drive a normal amount (not 100-120 miles/day like me), or had a bigger battery EV (like a Tesla), you wouldn't need to charge daily. That said, charging daily is SO MUCH less of a PITA than getting gas a couple times per week. Once I got used to driving an EV and charing at home, I feel the same kind of pity for people at gas pumps that I do for people eating their dinner at McDonalds.

No unscheduled maintenance is all well and good, but just comparing scheduled maintenance is a silly difference in ease. As in, here's my spring projects list for some of my cars:

M3 coupe:
oil change
diff fluid
trans fluid
brake fluid
engine air filter
fuel injector cleaning
spark plugs
valve adjustment

M5:
diff fluid
trans fluid
cabin air filter
engine air filter
oil change
brake fluid
timing chain tensioner
bluebus
seat angle repair
low priority: headlights lens

M3 wagon:
oil change
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Soften front sway
projector upgrade
M3 mirrors
rear brakes
brake fluid
summer wheels/tires

i3:
Summer wheels/tires
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      03-21-2020, 08:24 PM   #3398
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with due respect you should get around and see how the 99% of the world and its peoples normally live and its it's not like where you live sadly
You're posting on a forum about a vehicle a majority of people in the world couldn't afford when new. This thread and forum is anything but how people normally live.

Charging stations are increasing, there are state executive orders to increase EV registrations (literally no idea how that's enforced but whatever), and there are models out there specifically telling decision makers how to increase EV sales in their state and what the overall theoretical market share is. All of that is happening right now. It's not slowing down, that I can tell you.
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      03-21-2020, 08:37 PM   #3399
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Where I come from that means exactly the opposite.
Me two
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      03-21-2020, 09:34 PM   #3400
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
with due respect you should get around and see how the 99% of the world and its peoples normally live and its it's not like where you live sadly
I think the point might've been there's no reason it can't be like that everywhere (charging stations are cheap to build, that's why even my local grocery store has like 10 of them).

With that, 3 weeks ago we all thought we knew how people lived - well, now we're all going to be living quite a bit differently, at least until we get a vaccine. And those lifestyle changes are going to seem empty because - if done well - nothing will happen, so people will cry to go back to normal, and then we'll get hit with wave #2. Hopefully we'll be better prepared.

Anyway, my lease is up this year (i've never been happier to lease), and I can definitely say i'm still not considering a Tesla - I probably won't be alone - wondering what deals BMW might have.

side note: is anyone seriously going to buy a BeaverMW in a recession? Seems like a good-time-only ride.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      03-21-2020, 10:20 PM   #3401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
with due respect you should get around and see how the 99% of the world and its peoples normally live and its it's not like where you live sadly
I think the point might've been there's no reason it can't be like that everywhere (charging stations are cheap to build, that's why even my local grocery store has like 10 of them).

With that, 3 weeks ago we all thought we knew how people lived - well, now we're all going to be living quite a bit differently, at least until we get a vaccine. And those lifestyle changes are going to seem empty because - if done well - nothing will happen, so people will cry to go back to normal, and then we'll get hit with wave #2. Hopefully we'll be better prepared.

Anyway, my lease is up this year (i've never been happier to lease), and I can definitely say i'm still not considering a Tesla - I probably won't be alone - wondering what deals BMW might have.

side note: is anyone seriously going to buy a BeaverMW in a recession? Seems like a good-time-only ride.
The beaver is going to flop big time
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      03-21-2020, 10:44 PM   #3402
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
I can't think of any benefit to EV
They are heavy
They are inefficient
They are inconvenient

I might as well drive an electric fork lift around town.
The last time I did something for my car instead of my car doing something for me was in April 2019 when I gave it a set of summer wheels. The one and only time it needed service (fixing a small build defect) was in September 2018. Total time wasted to charge over 20 months of ownership - approximately an hour (though this is actually a bad thing - I should definitely get out more and do longer trips). How much time have you spent driving to and from the BMW dealership and waiting there for oil changes and whatever else the car needed over the last 20 months? How much time driving to and from the gas station and waiting to fill up?

Also, I don't give a fuck how heavy the car is as long as it can take off faster than 99% of all cars on the road. I see you have a 340i - it's one of the cars I laugh at the most since lots of stupid bimmer bois still don't know what to expect when the light turns green.

With all that, the increase on my electric bill is approximately 40% of the old car's gas costs even though it had much lower mileage (for some weird reason, everyone in the family takes the Tesla if it's available, instead of mixing up two cars equally like before).

tl;dr: you have no clue what you're talking about.
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      03-21-2020, 10:48 PM   #3403
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In any event, yeah, Musk continues to insist there are plenty of ventilators while hospitals in NYC are doubling up and Seattle and California are screaming for more. The guy is completely denying reality - maybe that's his superpower ... if so it works in capitalism, not so much during a pandemic.
He's already flipped on that.

(One lesson of this whole thing - anything you learned more than a few hours ago may not be true anymore.)
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      03-22-2020, 12:50 AM   #3404
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The last time I did something for my car instead of my car doing something for me was in April 2019 when I gave it a set of summer wheels. The one and only time it needed service (fixing a small build defect) was in September 2018. Total time wasted to charge over 20 months of ownership - approximately an hour (though this is actually a bad thing - I should definitely get out more and do longer trips). How much time have you spent driving to and from the BMW dealership and waiting there for oil changes and whatever else the car needed over the last 20 months? How much time driving to and from the gas station and waiting to fill up?

Also, I don't give a fuck how heavy the car is as long as it can take off faster than 99% of all cars on the road. I see you have a 340i - it's one of the cars I laugh at the most since lots of stupid bimmer bois still don't know what to expect when the light turns green.

With all that, the increase on my electric bill is approximately 40% of the old car's gas costs even though it had much lower mileage (for some weird reason, everyone in the family takes the Tesla if it's available, instead of mixing up two cars equally like before).

tl;dr: you have no clue what you're talking about.
Actually I do, I had the miserable experience of driving a Tesla and here are my observation
Range anxiety is a real thing and if you actually drive like myself (I cover 60k miles a year combine on all my personal vehical)
Due to the above it inconvenient as **** to wait for at least an hour to get a sufficient enough charge before moving on while in a ICE a gas stop is 10 minutes max.
The lines at the super charge station are typically ridiculous

Yes on the car side weight can be comparable to my 340i but compare to my Abarth, Miata, and 80s BMW you have to drive a shit SMART or the death box BMW to even get near that weight range and compromise while doing so) Furthermore once you start scaling up to trucks electric cars can get terrible heavy and on the commerical side forget about it since weight, range, space and time is everything which EV fail at all four. Since commerical vehicals are the largest contributors to motorize traffic co2 and EV is a piss poor replacement for the current ICE pretty much it a wasted investment imho. Side note I've yet to lose to a Telsa at a traffic light going 0 to legal speed limit.

Next is consumption, our infrastructure struggles to operate during a hot summer day, now imagine all ICE replace with EV

Then inconsistency of range due to weather which in my four season region would be maddening

I can go on but your clearly one of those folks who think it works for me so it must work for everyone else when the fact clearly show it doesn't.

Last edited by NormanConquest; 03-22-2020 at 12:56 AM..
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      03-22-2020, 01:51 AM   #3405
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I can go on but your clearly one of those folks who think it works for me so it must work for everyone else when the fact clearly show it doesn't.
And you're clearly one of those folks who think everyone does 60Kmiles a year.
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      03-22-2020, 04:06 AM   #3406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
I can't think of any benefit to EV
They are heavy
They are inefficient
They are inconvenient

I might as well drive an electric fork lift around town.
The last time I did something for my car instead of my car doing something for me was in April 2019 when I gave it a set of summer wheels. The one and only time it needed service (fixing a small build defect) was in September 2018. Total time wasted to charge over 20 months of ownership - approximately an hour (though this is actually a bad thing - I should definitely get out more and do longer trips). How much time have you spent driving to and from the BMW dealership and waiting there for oil changes and whatever else the car needed over the last 20 months? How much time driving to and from the gas station and waiting to fill up?

Also, I don't give a fuck how heavy the car is as long as it can take off faster than 99% of all cars on the road. I see you have a 340i - it's one of the cars I laugh at the most since lots of stupid bimmer bois still don't know what to expect when the light turns green.

With all that, the increase on my electric bill is approximately 40% of the old car's gas costs even though it had much lower mileage (for some weird reason, everyone in the family takes the Tesla if it's available, instead of mixing up two cars equally like before).

tl;dr: you have no clue what you're talking about.

opps accidentally pressed appreciate instead of reply to your post

but seriously i wouldn't want to be seen inside the butt ugly tesla that looks like a frog spawn or be associated with the image a tesla driver conjures.
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      03-22-2020, 05:21 AM   #3407
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And you're clearly one of those folks who think everyone does 60Kmiles a year.
We are a 60,000 mile/year family. Assuming you can charge at home (I’d hope anyone buying cars in the BMW/Tesla price point can afford to do that), its much more convenient in an EV. 60,000 miles per year at 25mpg = 2400 gallons of gas = getting gas every 2-3 days. Plus 6 oil changes per year, frequent brake swaps, spark plugs every year, diff and trans fluid twice a year, engine air filters twice a year, bla bla bla. In the same time period the BEV needs tires. I’ve lived the 60,000 mile/year ICE and BEV life— and now the EV sees 50,000 miles/year and the three ICE cars see 10,000 per year combined (many of which are to/from/on the track). Thinking ICE cars are better for high mileage people, if they can charge at home, is only based on ignorance.
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      03-22-2020, 06:28 AM   #3408
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And you're clearly one of those folks who think everyone does 60Kmiles a year.
They don't have to be like me, when you go for a long distance road trip the Tesla doesn't give you a sense of freedom and exploration your overwhelm with anxiety of I hope I make it to this charge station, I got to drive like an old nanny so I don't draw too much power consumption, instead of doing from NYC to Miami in one day you have to book a stay at a hotel because you lose too much time at the charge station.

Then your complaining about maintaine on a ICE, how expensive do you think it going to be replacing your battery 5-10 years down the line? There plenty of video online of people trying to repair flooded tesla and tesla with generic accident damage and the repair period is either 3x longer then a normal car or price inhabited, so congrads you spent 40+k on a disposable cell phone.

Last edited by NormanConquest; 03-22-2020 at 06:33 AM..
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      03-22-2020, 07:33 AM   #3409
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
They don't have to be like me, when you go for a long distance road trip the Tesla doesn't give you a sense of freedom and exploration your overwhelm with anxiety of I hope I make it to this charge station, I got to drive like an old nanny so I don't draw too much power consumption, instead of doing from NYC to Miami in one day you have to book a stay at a hotel because you lose too much time at the charge station.

Then your complaining about maintaine on a ICE, how expensive do you think it going to be replacing your battery 5-10 years down the line? There plenty of video online of people trying to repair flooded tesla and tesla with generic accident damage and the repair period is either 3x longer then a normal car or price inhabited, so congrads you spent 40+k on a disposable cell phone.
What's the resale market going to be on EV's....your cell phone analogy is excellent. Tesla's (EV's in general) are not bought by car enthusiasts, so like cell phones folks are going to want the new model and I suspect that the interest for used will be less than that of ICE. I'd happily buy a well loved M2 or M4 but have zero interest in buying any used EV out there.
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      03-22-2020, 09:14 AM   #3410
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
We are a 60,000 mile/year family. Assuming you can charge at home (I’d hope anyone buying cars in the BMW/Tesla price point can afford to do that), its much more convenient in an EV. 60,000 miles per year at 25mpg = 2400 gallons of gas = getting gas every 2-3 days. Plus 6 oil changes per year, frequent brake swaps, spark plugs every year, diff and trans fluid twice a year, engine air filters twice a year, bla bla bla. In the same time period the BEV needs tires. I’ve lived the 60,000 mile/year ICE and BEV life— and now the EV sees 50,000 miles/year and the three ICE cars see 10,000 per year combined (many of which are to/from/on the track). Thinking ICE cars are better for high mileage people, if they can charge at home, is only based on ignorance.
Your math is a bit fuzzy to me. Based on real annual MPG data I keep, I personally drive 45,000 miles per year. 37,300 of those miles are just my commute to work. The other 7,700 are weekend recreational driving. My work commute is 175 miles round trip.

While I don't keep explicit records on the average MPH, when I reset the trip mileage per tank, the average MPH is around 45; it varies depending on traffic congestion, but the number usually is between 40 MPH to 50 MPH. These data are from my 3 BMWs that I daily to work, 5 days a week. So doing all the mathematics, my average trip time per day is 3.46 hours. This is validated by my actual experience based on my length of work day of time at work and commuting, which is a bit over 12 hours per day. So the point is, I have a lot of experience with high annual mileage.

Based on your information, which is 50,000 (family) miles per year in your EV, that's a shit load of driving. If the car is driven 365 days a year, and based on a 45 MPH average, that's 3 hours per day of driving (1,111 hours per year). An average 45 MPH may be a too high number in your case, so going with a lower average MPH makes the case worse. The case being, most cars are not driven 365 days a year, or at least not driven exactly the same way every day for 365 days a year. Yours are "family" miles, which tells me multiple family members are driving the EV through out the day; in my case, I drive my car about 2 hours into work, it's parked for 9 hours or so, then a 1 hr. 45 min. commute home. The 50,000 miles a year on your EV says it is not driven on a daily commute then parked, which I think most people use their daily commuter for. So while you say an EV is doable for a high annual mileage service scenario based on your experience, I just can't get the numbers to work out, if the car is used as a typical person uses their daily commuter.

I've been looking into using an EV for my commute since 2012. In 2012 the only viable EV that had range of over 175 mile per charge was the Model S. Even with the lowest priced version of the Model S at around $75K, the Tesla was nowhere near as affordable in lifecycle cost as an ICE, even a BMW 3-series. Jump to 2018, and the only high-range EVs to make my commute were the Chevy Bolt and Model 3. Both had a approximate 240-mile max range; and that's in near perfect weather. Throw in winter and the car becomes range limited (assuming one can't charge at work - my case, no chargers). In 2020, nothing has really changed. ICE for a lot of people still is the better choice; especially if their family is limited to one or just 2 cars.

And that's really more the point, EVs work great for wealthy multi-car families, that have private home-charging stations. There are a whole lot of people that do not have the ability to have home-charging stations, which makes the high-mileage commute calculations even worse.

I will contend that EV maintenance is a lot less than ICE, but I think you've exaggerated it a bit to make your point. While I'm lucky I'm mechanically inclined to do most all my maintenance/repair and have a shop set up for it, it still isn't as bad as you make it sound. Most people have their car serviced and multi-task at the same time (i.e. drop the car off and pick it up later, or the next day). And the argument about plugging in your EV to recharge and walking away vs. filling up ICE at a gas station is a joke. It takes 5 minutes to fill a 16 - 20 gallon tank; most people do it once a week, so it's not a huge time out of their day. Most people don't drive to and from a gas station to fill up, they fill up while they are out for other reasons; gas stations are so ubiquitous you can fill up almost anywhere at any time. Take one long-distance trip in an EV once a month and have to wait an hour to recharge, and that blows the ICE fill up argument out of the water. 1 hour of recharge is worth 12 ICE recharges.

My 2 cents.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 03-22-2020 at 09:39 AM..
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