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      03-27-2020, 02:55 PM   #3521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Starbucks View Post
Because it doesn't need to be. Jesus. WTF don't people see?

With all this time off, I've been doing a lot of yard work. I have 2 chainsaws to use. Battery and the gas. Which one do you think started when I pulled them off the shelf?

I also have 2 string trimmers. Same story.

And I work on space ships, not cars.
I don't think ICE loyalists really comprehend how much less maintenance is required for EVs.

As I posted earlier, my spring/quarantine project list for my cars:

M3 coupe:
oil change
diff fluid
trans fluid
brake fluid if it seems like a track season is happening this year
engine air filter
fuel injector cleaning
spark plugs
valve adjustment

M5:
diff fluid
trans fluid
cabin air filter
engine air filter
oil change
brake fluid
timing chain tensioner
bluebus
seat angle repair
low priority: headlights lens

M3 wagon:
oil change
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Soften front sway
projector upgrade
M3 mirrors
rear brakes
brake fluid
summer wheels/tires

i3:
Summer wheels/tires


^nothing about that is atypical in my time owning these cars... and the i3 sees 4x more miles than all the other cars combined.
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      03-27-2020, 03:01 PM   #3522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
All of your discusssion is me me me, all my points has been general public, general use, and reality for the average individual.
That's right... A lot of my points are based on my experience and how they apply to me. However, the difference between my argument and your argument is that you are forcing your generalizations on me, while I am not forcing my experience on anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
None of my points has been debunk because saying "well it works for me" isn't a valid arguement
Sure it does. You say it's inconvenient, I said it's convenient for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
when I'm asking comparison of energy density of EV and ICE and legth of regaining that energy for both vehicals,
You only brought that up when I debunked your generalization about convenience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
and finally how are you ever going to convert commerical vehicals to EV when weight, cube, and time are the most important factors to those vehicals and EV come way short on all three.

So in short
They weigh to much for commercial use
They take up too much space for commerical use
They take too long to recharge for general use
They aren't environmentally friendly.
As someone has already pointed out, strawman argument.
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      03-27-2020, 03:06 PM   #3523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I don't think ICE loyalists really comprehend how much less maintenance is required for EVs.

As I posted earlier, my spring/quarantine project list for my cars:

M3 coupe:
oil change
diff fluid
trans fluid
brake fluid if it seems like a track season is happening this year
engine air filter
fuel injector cleaning
spark plugs
valve adjustment

M5:
diff fluid
trans fluid
cabin air filter
engine air filter
oil change
brake fluid
timing chain tensioner
bluebus
seat angle repair
low priority: headlights lens

M3 wagon:
oil change
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Soften front sway
projector upgrade
M3 mirrors
rear brakes
brake fluid
summer wheels/tires

i3:
Summer wheels/tires


^nothing about that is atypical in my time owning these cars... and the i3 sees 4x more miles than all the other cars combined.
They don't want to see it. It's about the climate change conspiracy to them, not about the actual EV.

I'm on my 3rd i3. I think I got one set of new tires, and one single oil change on my old REx. My two M3's got regular oil changes, repairs, new coils, brakes etc. My service receipts file folder is substantial... my i3 service receipts file folder is very very thin.
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      03-27-2020, 03:12 PM   #3524
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guys you can list n number of maintenance items and money saved etc but it won't sway the mind of rational types because we take our past experience with ice cars into view and our preferences and convenience etc and for the overwhelming majority EV are neither cheap nor practical nor desirable.
It might suit your niche micocosmic existence but otherwise you guys are in the minority.
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      03-27-2020, 03:17 PM   #3525
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and ive thought about it my 335d x drive does 0-60 in 4.8 sec. sure tesla is faster but i can drive all day long the way I want to drive without any care or worry. Its cheap reliable and keeps running without any unexpected maintenance. why should I shell out megabuccks for a car with a shitty interior and one that has to be charged everyday etc. pure madness. i will just keep driving it till it fails or till i buy a x3 m40 i
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      03-27-2020, 03:21 PM   #3526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
They don't want to see it. It's about the climate change conspiracy to them, not about the actual EV.

I'm on my 3rd i3. I think I got one set of new tires, and one single oil change on my old REx. My two M3's got regular oil changes, repairs, new coils, brakes etc. My service receipts file folder is substantial... my i3 service receipts file folder is very very thin.
You forgot replacing battery 18,000 dollars and lost of legs if you rearend someone.
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      03-27-2020, 03:24 PM   #3527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post

COVID19 did more to reduce pollution than all the Greta Thunberg screaming, flight shaming, EV worshippers, lefty agenda parties etc combined.

The irony.
That's not irony. Reducing carbon footprint to reduce pollution is exactly what GT was bitching about. This only proves her right.

The irony is that we did it for a virus instead of a little girl and now there is visibly less pollution regardless.
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      03-27-2020, 03:29 PM   #3528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
guys you can list n number of maintenance items and money saved etc but it won't sway the mind of rational types because we take our past experience with ice cars into view and our preferences and convenience etc and for the overwhelming majority EV are neither cheap nor practical nor desirable.
It might suit your niche micocosmic existence but otherwise you guys are in the minority.
Amen and well said!
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      03-27-2020, 03:30 PM   #3529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post

COVID19 did more to reduce pollution than all the Greta Thunberg screaming, flight shaming, EV worshippers, lefty agenda parties etc combined.

The irony.
That's not irony. Reducing carbon footprint to reduce pollution is exactly what GT was bitching about. This only proves her right.

The irony is that we did it for a virus instead of a little girl and now there is visibly less pollution regardless.
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/201...5EXRg0uD.email
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      03-27-2020, 03:33 PM   #3530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
You forgot replacing battery 18,000 dollars and lost of legs if you rearend someone.
It's $16k after 15 years. That's analogous to replacing an engine on a 2005 car, which isn't unheard of. However, you don't get a brand new engine for a 15 year old car for full price do you? No, you get a used one so that you aren't spending more than the car is worth. Currently there are used i3 batteries for $6k. You can get a complete Tesla 3 pack for around $9k. In 15 years or so, those price will go down as the market get saturated with used EV's, just like they do for used ICE cars.

I don't know why you are bringing up loss of legs... what are you talking about? The Tesla and the i3 both have collision mitigation. My i3 has stopped itself when I was getting too close to a stopped car in front of me. But then again, even ICE cars have that.
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      03-27-2020, 03:38 PM   #3531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
I'm not championing GT. I don't know much about her. It seems she's more like a mascot for the press to latch onto. Personally, I don't think she is qualified to dictate policy or make any scientific claims.

HOWEVER, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Her message of reducing our carbon footprint is fundamentally sound, and the current observable clearer skies over Los Angeles because of reduced vehicle use lines up with that idea. So no, it isn't ironic at all. That's all i'm arguing. You don't have to be for or against her to make that connection.

In essence, she could be the anti-christ. It doesn't matter to me. If the anti-christ told us ice cream was delicious, they're not wrong just because they are the anti-christ. Ice Cream is actually delicious.
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      03-27-2020, 03:38 PM   #3532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
You forgot replacing battery 18,000 dollars and lost of legs if you rearend someone.
He didn’t forget— those aren’t things.

The Model 3 is the safest car ever tested by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), whose testing procedures determined Tesla’s newest car has the lowest probability of injury in a collision of any of the over 900 cars NHTSA has tested. In second place is Model S, and in third — you guessed it — Model X.

Not having a huge block of metal (Engine) that wants to be shoved into the cabin in a crash makes it far easier to make a safe car.

And battery replacements on all EVs other than the Nissan Leaf are rarely to never required— especially after warranty, which is >= 100,000 miles on every EV I know of.

We already covered this. You’re just parroting the same information again that you already know is false.
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      03-27-2020, 03:41 PM   #3533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Good Lord, please stop. Their are well-educated [but equally religious] people who do not think climate change is science fiction. We don't believe anthropogenic climate change is a threat to civilization [but we don't know it isn't]. Thinking the climate is not going to change is conservative thought.[but we don't know it isn't] Thinking humans will not adapt to natural climate change is conservative thought. [but we don't know we will] Thinking the Earth's climate mechanism is tolerable of all animals that inhabit the planet is progressive thought. [but we don't know it is]

The EV as a mechanical device is not thought of as a tin hat conspiracy. Mandating the use of EV is a liberal tool to fight an imaginary foe called Globalwarmingclimatechange. [ or it's something else entirely depending on who's opinions you most listen to, which makes it a religious statement ]

It's become a religion for the Left. [or it hasn't, there's no truth here because this is just a random baseless opinion as the opposite would be - so religious!]
See the problem with everything you wrote is, you could be wrong on all of it; which sounds equally like your religion to me. Educated doesn't mean not-religious. Lots of educated people are religious - you are!

The non-religious point of view is this:

(1.) Near as science can determine, the Earth is experiencing unprecedented global warming acceleration which is visually obvious if nothing else.

(2.) We can't prove what's causing it, because we don't understand climate science well enough (so we don't know if and when it'll stop).

(3.) Therefore we should take steps to ensure we aren't burdened with catastrophe.

This is why the concept of financial insurance exists: protect against unknowns. That's a very non-religious things to do because it doesn't rely on faith.

For example, you could examine every inch of every wire in your home every day, you could follow every fire prevention best practice, etc but it still doesn't guarantee your home won't burn down so you buy fire insurance (or at least your mortgage lender is smart enough to make you do it).

Why? Because there are known unknowns, and unknown unknowns, so the smart person has fire insurance.

Do you know why the reinsurance market is doing so great? Because back in the 1990s they priced in effects from global warming. That's what non-religious smart people do, they price in the unknown, and protect themselves using insurance.

As for BEVs, there are a ton of reasons to go BEV other than religion: new technology revolution = jobs, growing economy, less air/noise pollution = happier customers and workers and lower health care costs, etc etc. The economic argument for new technology is unassailable (and that's not including the unknown benefits!).

Good policy should be based on non-religious points of view, which will always be either supported or opposed by the religious, and they should be ignored.

The bottom line is, portable battery electric power is a booming technology revolution that's already created millions of jobs and it's only going to grow from there - it doesn't matter whose religion likes it or doesn't like it.
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Last edited by GrussGott; 03-27-2020 at 04:00 PM..
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      03-27-2020, 03:50 PM   #3534
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
guys you can list n number of maintenance items and money saved etc but it won't sway the mind of rational types because we take our past experience with ice cars into view
Why would your past experiences with ICE apply to the EV? They are different tools for different jobs.

You describing yourself as "rational" is passive aggressively saying that someone like me is irrational. You keep saying that the EV might suit my needs and I am in the minority, but you are also saying I am irrational. Obviously this is a political/emotional argument and not a pragmatic one. I'm trying to be pragmatic, and some little girl that got the right really upset gets brought up.
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      03-27-2020, 03:54 PM   #3535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
EV's are orders of magnitude more efficient than ICE. That's just physics. The numbers change a little once you added the total amount of energy to produce the vehicle and generate/distribute the energy source (gas/diesel, electrons).

Obviously EV's have some limitations with regards to specific applications vs ICE but that has nothing to do with efficiency.
Your avoiding the question here I'll help you

On weight and space problem


On environment problem
Ya, I've seen both EE videos including his latest. It doesn't change my claim. Perhaps you should watch his latest.

The other video,,,I haven't watched it and if it's like his others it probably lacks context like his others. He's just a well spoken Scotty Kilmer.
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      03-27-2020, 03:56 PM   #3536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
He didn’t forget— those aren’t things.

The Model 3 is the safest car ever tested by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), whose testing procedures determined Tesla’s newest car has the lowest probability of injury in a collision of any of the over 900 cars NHTSA has tested. In second place is Model S, and in third — you guessed it — Model X.

Not having a huge block of metal (Engine) that wants to be shoved into the cabin in a crash makes it far easier to make a safe car.

And battery replacements on all EVs other than the Nissan Leaf are rarely to never required— especially after warranty, which is >= 100,000 miles on every EV I know of.

We already covered this. You’re just parroting the same information again that you already know is false.
Why do you guys ignore facts and reality
What I mention did occur.

https://www.dealerrater.com/recalls/BMW/i3/

https://www.mlive.com/auto/2017/11/b...p-sale_af.html
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      03-27-2020, 04:04 PM   #3537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Why do you guys ignore facts and reality
What I mention did occur.

https://www.dealerrater.com/recalls/BMW/i3/

https://www.mlive.com/auto/2017/11/b...p-sale_af.html
I don't see any mention of loss of legs on any recall. Did BMW replace the legs for free?

Regarding a new battery, I don't see any of those either. I've owned a '15, '18, and '19. I've never had to replace the battery. What specifically are you referring to?

Please don't tell me you are just posting a recall bulletin to prove how unreliable the i3 is. Plenty of ICE cars have recalls. Just another strawman argument.
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      03-27-2020, 04:10 PM   #3538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
and ive thought about it my 335d x drive does 0-60 in 4.8 sec. sure tesla is faster but i can drive all day long the way I want to drive without any care or worry. Its cheap reliable and keeps running without any unexpected maintenance. why should I shell out megabuccks for a car with a shitty interior and one that has to be charged everyday etc. pure madness. i will just keep driving it till it fails or till i buy a x3 m40 i
You're lucky you didn't have a the 335d(M57) sold in the US, because it was problematic with regards to the emissions system and it took BMW years to develop a fix for the problem with carbon buildup inside the intake.

EV's are application specific. The reality, in the US, is that the majority of people living in the suburbs who can afford these cars or BMWs just use their car to commute to work and around town. They don't roadtrip because they either don't like to do it or don't have the miles to give because they're on some stupid low mileage lease.

I like you love to drive and drive fast. I actually road trip in my 435i so a BEV isn't for me at this point in my life.

Tesla has a long way to go. For example with regards to the TM3 having only two interior colors and five exterior colors will eventually start to cost them sales. Buyers of economy cars accept those limitations but luxury buyers won't.
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      03-27-2020, 04:15 PM   #3539
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
and ive thought about it my 335d x drive does 0-60 in 4.8 sec. sure tesla is faster but i can drive all day long the way I want to drive without any care or worry. Its cheap reliable and keeps running without any unexpected maintenance. why should I shell out megabuccks for a car with a shitty interior and one that has to be charged everyday etc. pure madness. i will just keep driving it till it fails or till i buy a x3 m40 i
I would certainly never insist that you replace your fun to drive 335d with a Tesla unless you thought that it would better suit your needs. Indeed, as I have stated many times, I have a fun ICE for the same reasons you enjoy driving your 335d. M3 CS, 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, can run all day both on the street and the track. I would never replace it with a Tesla 3. However, that doesn't mean my i3 doesn't do it's job better than my M3 does as a commuter. It's the way of the future for urban areas. Again, sounding like a broken record: a different tool for a different task.
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      03-27-2020, 04:22 PM   #3540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post

COVID19 did more to reduce pollution than all the Greta Thunberg screaming, flight shaming, EV worshippers, lefty agenda parties etc combined.

The irony.
That's not irony. Reducing carbon footprint to reduce pollution is exactly what GT was bitching about. This only proves her right.

The irony is that we did it for a virus instead of a little girl and now there is visibly less pollution regardless.
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/201...5EXRg0uD.email

powerful stuff...
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      03-27-2020, 04:36 PM   #3541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
and ive thought about it my 335d x drive does 0-60 in 4.8 sec. sure tesla is faster but i can drive all day long the way I want to drive without any care or worry. Its cheap reliable and keeps running without any unexpected maintenance. why should I shell out megabuccks for a car with a shitty interior and one that has to be charged everyday etc. pure madness. i will just keep driving it till it fails or till i buy a x3 m40 i
I would certainly never insist that you replace your fun to drive 335d with a Tesla unless you thought that it would better suit your needs. Indeed, as I have stated many times, I have a fun ICE for the same reasons you enjoy driving your 335d. M3 CS, 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, can run all day both on the street and the track. I would never replace it with a Tesla 3. However, that doesn't mean my i3 doesn't do it's job better than my M3 does as a commuter. It's the way of the future for urban areas. Again, sounding like a broken record: a different tool for a different task.
with 3 kids and 15k miles/ year an m car or model 3 is sadly not for me. I can accept different tools for different jobs argument.
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      03-27-2020, 07:44 PM   #3542
NormanConquest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
It's $16k after 15 years. That's analogous to replacing an engine on a 2005 car, which isn't unheard of. However, you don't get a brand new engine for a 15 year old car for full price do you? No, you get a used one so that you aren't spending more than the car is worth. Currently there are used i3 batteries for $6k. You can get a complete Tesla 3 pack for around $9k. In 15 years or so, those price will go down as the market get saturated with used EV's, just like they do for used ICE cars.

I don't know why you are bringing up loss of legs... what are you talking about? The Tesla and the i3 both have collision mitigation. My i3 has stopped itself when I was getting too close to a stopped car in front of me. But then again, even ICE cars have that.
engine and transmission replacement/rebuild is way cheaper then 16k (that the battery itself, not including installation charge)
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