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      03-12-2019, 05:47 PM   #1
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Post What a Halo version of the i8 should have been!

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...1qakrtikY2m0t4


Aston Martin announced their new halo car, the 003. Full carbon fibre, hybrid 4WD and at least 1000bhp.

This is what BMWi should have aimed for, with a pricey halo version of the i8. How much more desirable would the "normal" i8 have been then...


Aston Martin have just leapfrogged McLaren IMO....whilst Ferrari release a stopgap "new" model (F8 Tributo) that is heaver and slower than their competitors' old models (720S).

I can't really see BMW competing in this space, having squandered their initial technological lead in Carbon fibre and hybrid tech with the i8.
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      03-13-2019, 02:27 PM   #2
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I have to see these get built and put into production before they leapfrog Mclaren for me. The Vanquish Vision is the best looking concept I've seen in some time though.
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      03-13-2019, 03:29 PM   #3
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You don't just build a "pricey" halo version of a car and then a "normal" version of that same car.

When a manufacturer spends all the money and design on a "Full Carbon Fiber, Hybrid AWD, and 1000 HP" halo car, what business model suggests dropping in a 3-cyl mini engine and also rolling it out in a "normal" (budget) variant? If you spend the money to design a chassis for such a powerful, then it makes no sense to water it down for a much less expensive variant.

If BMW built the i8 you allude to, we wouldn't have any i8's like we have today at any price point.
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      03-13-2019, 03:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo-Sta07 View Post
I have to see these get built and put into production before they leapfrog Mclaren for me. The Vanquish Vision is the best looking concept I've seen in some time though.
I thought the same until they showed the production prototype Valkyrie at Geneva i.e. not a concept. And it is better than the concept.

The only car that comes to mind as exceeding its concepts performance (bit not quite looks) until now was the i8.

This suggests to me the 003 (80% finished) concept will likely be improved for the actual road car. Perfectly possible when only building 500 cars.

When it comes to the Vanquish concept, that's where I think Aston Martin will row back significantly in the same way all manufacturers do, and will water down the concept significantly.

I agree the Vanquish concept is stunningly beautiful though.
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      03-13-2019, 03:40 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
You don't just build a "pricey" halo version of a car and then a "normal" version of that same car.

When a manufacturer spends all the money and design on a "Full Carbon Fiber, Hybrid AWD, and 1000 HP" halo car, what business model suggests dropping in a 3-cyl mini engine and also rolling it out in a "normal" (budget) variant? If you spend the money to design a chassis for such a powerful, then it makes no sense to water it down for a much less expensive variant.

If BMW built the i8 you allude to, we wouldn't have any i8's like we have today at any price point.
Perhaps, but we will never know, re the i8.

Regarding Aston Martin, that is virtually what they are doing. 003 is all carbon, but the production Vanquish is virtually all aluminium. Engine size will be the same, although I am sure the power output and probably internals will differ very significantly.

Although, with the i8 the carbon tub was there at least for a halo version. Its already strong and stiff enough for more power. The problem is that it was never designed to fit a bigger engine, for packaging. I don't blame them for that, given the struggle BMWi had in bringing the i8 into being.

I just feel that BMW have failed to follow up on the incredible initial launch of the i8. The LCI model is better in a few ways, yet worse in others.

But perhaps they are working on a great replacement. It would not surprise me at all in fact, but I just can't see them reaching this kind of level (003). Vanquish level is perfectly in reach though, if they really go for it.
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      03-14-2019, 08:20 AM   #6
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The i8 is a cool car but it was never designed to excel at anything. It was simply an experiment and a pretty odd one at that.

Its not powerful, not fast, doesn't handle very well, has no storage space, is not practical, and is not a good EV by any measure. No one builds a "halo" car which is strictly "meh" in all categories. That was never the objective...

The i8 was a pretty interesting experiment and that is what I find endearing.

I also loved my VW Thing.
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      03-14-2019, 12:31 PM   #7
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I imagine the costs of putting a bigger engine in the i8 will be very prohibitive given how expensive the car is already. A V6 is probably the best option given the width restriction and having to fit a gearbox in to drive the rear wheels but BMW don't have a V6 that I know of so that would be completely new as well.

The best bet for a fast i8 I believe is full electrification when battery energy density allows decent range and also keeps the weight down enough to retain the handling.

A retro-fit kit in the future would be interesting, expensive and need some clever software but physically I can see it working.
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      03-14-2019, 12:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
The i8 is a cool car but it was never designed to excel at anything. It was simply an experiment and a pretty odd one at that.

Its not powerful, not fast, doesn't handle very well, has no storage space, is not practical, and is not a good EV by any measure.

That's overly harsh I feel.

I think the handling is very good indeed for example. And it is very fast relative to its fuel usage. Overall even, it is on par with a base 911 on track.

It excels in its looks.

It was also revolutionary upon release.
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      03-14-2019, 12:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGR View Post
I imagine the costs of putting a bigger engine in the i8 will be very prohibitive given how expensive the car is already. A V6 is probably the best option given the width restriction and having to fit a gearbox in to drive the rear wheels but BMW don't have a V6 that I know of so that would be completely new as well.

The best bet for a fast i8 I believe is full electrification when battery energy density allows decent range and also keeps the weight down enough to retain the handling.

A retro-fit kit in the future would be interesting, expensive and need some clever software but physically I can see it working.

I think BMW will absolutely not revise the i8 with a bigger engine, or anything significant at all.

I think it is possible (50/50) that they will create a different successor with a completely new structure, with more flexibility designed in (engine size and perhaps the possibility of 100 BEV option model later).

Retrofit kit is unlikely I think too, as the market size for such a modification would be tiny. e.g. I would not buy it.
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      03-14-2019, 01:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH View Post
That's overly harsh I feel.

I think the handling is very good indeed for example. And it is very fast relative to its fuel usage. Overall even, it is on par with a base 911 on track.

It excels in its looks.

It was also revolutionary upon release.
Nonsense... I seriously doubt the i8 will come close to keeping up with a 911 in the hands of a competent driver.

I say "seriously doubt" because I've never driven a 911 on the track, but I do have considerable time in many M cars (1M, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, X6M) on many different tracks (inc the Nurburgring, VIR, RA, CMS, Arjeplog, and my home track at AutobahnCC).

I've driven my i8 on my track ONCE and it was a real "boat". My M4 will run circles around it all day long. Hell, even a stock M3/M4 or M2Comp will run circles around it. The i8 is heavy, soft, and lacks the proper wheels/tires/suspension for the job. I never even finished a full 25 min session with the i8 cause it just felt like I was abusing a car which was clearly never designed for track work...

Slower than a Civic Type R or even a 2008 Renault Megane: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/mod...ightve-thought

Its a very nice highway cruiser though and it does look great!

Last edited by evanevery; 03-14-2019 at 02:28 PM..
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      03-14-2019, 03:02 PM   #11
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Actually that was a typo by me. I specified it because I was typing "on road" in my mind.

I meant to type:

"Overall even, it is on par with a base 911 on road".

I completely agree the base 911 would beat it on track.

I've driven mine on track too, and it was not a "boat" in any sense. But it lacked power, overall grip, and braking. And after 10 laps or so, it lacked e power. It handled very well indeed. Not as well as a track focussed car of course.
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      03-15-2019, 11:43 AM   #12
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https://www.autobild.de/videos/video...-12099711.html

This could be the right one.

If it really comes...
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      03-15-2019, 03:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
https://www.autobild.de/videos/video...-12099711.html

This could be the right one.

If it really comes...

I can't understand what he says, and like the front, but its not revolutionary enough to be a successor to i8 IMO.
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      03-15-2019, 04:07 PM   #14
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On reflection, perhaps the AMG ONE is more aligned with the i8 approach, albeit at hypercar level.

1.6L v6 engine and 4 electric motors.


But with an engine life of only 30,000 miles.... which is what you get for using a race engine. Then it goes back to the factory for a complete engine refresh/rebuild.


The 003 has no such drawbacks.

Last edited by JasH; 03-15-2019 at 04:13 PM..
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      03-15-2019, 04:28 PM   #15
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Surprising how many people, owners included still don't get the i8 and what it was all about. It is a special car, no doubt.
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      03-16-2019, 09:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxxsirrah View Post
Surprising how many people, owners included still don't get the i8 and what it was all about. It is a special car, no doubt.
"Not getting it" and wanting a limited numbers halo version are two different things.
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      03-18-2019, 10:24 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxxsirrah View Post
Surprising how many people, owners included still don't get the i8 and what it was all about. It is a special car, no doubt.
The i8 is a special car, no doubt. It was concept car tech which was actually taken to completion. An experiment we could actually buy!

I've also considered buying a Swiss AmphiCar, BMW Izetta, and DUKW because of their uniqueness...
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      03-23-2019, 09:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Nonsense... I seriously doubt the i8 will come close to keeping up with a 911 in the hands of a competent driver

Its a very nice highway cruiser though and it does look great!
Itís not a track car, but it still accelerates faster than most GT cruisers of the time of its inception, weighs a lot less than practically all GT cruisers which matters for handling, and has looks that not only makes GT cruisers envious, but even track cars. Yet despite all of this, itíll kick all their asses (cruisers & track cars) in the energy efficiency department.
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      03-27-2019, 03:14 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGR View Post
I imagine the costs of putting a bigger engine in the i8 will be very prohibitive given how expensive the car is already. A V6 is probably the best option given the width restriction and having to fit a gearbox in to drive the rear wheels but BMW don't have a V6 that I know of so that would be completely new as well.

The best bet for a fast i8 I believe is full electrification when battery energy density allows decent range and also keeps the weight down enough to retain the handling.

A retro-fit kit in the future would be interesting, expensive and need some clever software but physically I can see it working.

I think BMW will absolutely not revise the i8 with a bigger engine, or anything significant at all.

I think it is possible (50/50) that they will create a different successor with a completely new structure, with more flexibility designed in (engine size and perhaps the possibility of 100 BEV option model later).

Retrofit kit is unlikely I think too, as the market size for such a modification would be tiny. e.g. I would not buy it.
Judging from what they are doing with the ix3 and the i4, the i8 will likely look like a M850i with some i design cues. I don't think that's a bad thing. I'd love for the i8 to keep its doors and unique styling, but it doesn't look like that would fit in with BMWs plans. I'd also like an updated i3, but I don't think that's happening either. I think the i3 and the i8 will be very interesting experiments by bmw that launched the i division.
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      03-29-2019, 03:45 PM   #20
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Proper i3 is toast

https://carbuzz.com/news/bmw-i3-succ...e-much-cheaper

A non carbon i8 would not be an i8 IMO. I would never buy such a car.


In fact all my cars are now full carbon fibre tub, and those I have on the way are the same.
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      03-31-2019, 04:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxxsirrah View Post
Surprising how many people, owners included still don't get the i8 and what it was all about. It is a special car, no doubt.
Correct.

Let's look at the intention behind the idea:
Vision Efficient Dynamics
That doesn't say "fastest car ever" or "the ultimate track beast". Anyone who compare the i8 in this regard has indeed understood nothing.

Now we see all sorts of Power EV Concepts with unbelievable benchmarks and ranges on paper but let's see what they are going to consume effectively.

It is much easier to propagate a King Kong concept than to face a sophisticated technical challenge, namely to master efficiency and bring it on the streets.
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      04-06-2019, 09:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH View Post
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...1qakrtikY2m0t4


Aston Martin announced their new halo car, the 003. Full carbon fibre, hybrid 4WD and at least 1000bhp.

This is what BMWi should have aimed for, with a pricey halo version of the i8. How much more desirable would the "normal" i8 have been then...


Aston Martin have just leapfrogged McLaren IMO....whilst Ferrari release a stopgap "new" model (F8 Tributo) that is heaver and slower than their competitors' old models (720S).

I can't really see BMW competing in this space, having squandered their initial technological lead in Carbon fibre and hybrid tech with the i8.
Leapfrogged McLaren? with what?

Their concept cars that are still not in production? Or the so called Hypercars they've released already that can't hang with a 720S, much less a P1/Senna/Speedtail.

Aston should stick to making GT cars with Ford engines for grandfathers and leave the supercars to McLaren, Ferrari and Lamborghini.
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