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      02-17-2020, 07:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BS_CS View Post
Putting him in a car with lower safety ratings with less technology than today that could potentially prevent a crash? Methinks-not. I'm sure he'll like it, but with my son I'd prefer him driving a newer smaller car, and getting him the proper training to avoid emergency/crash situations. Also I don't think the BMW here was at fault for causing the crash, it unfortunately sounds like maybe the new driver was showing off for friends. Really sad to see.
I wish OEMs would start implementing tech to assist parents. Even a lowly Toyota Corolla will do well over 100MPH. At those speeds I dont care what safety features you have, you're toast if the shit hits the fan and you're an inexperienced driver.

OEMs should allow for "new driver" mode where with a special key (like a valet key) or an app you limit HP, torque, acceleration, wheel spin, and top speed. Give parents a smartphone app that alerts them if their child driver goes outside bounds that are drawn on a map or drives the car between midnight and 6:00 AM. Stuff like that. Certainly seems well within reach to be able to tailor the performance of the car to the driver so they can have all the modern safety features of a 2020 model car with all the performance of a 1970s shitbox.
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      02-17-2020, 08:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by TrevorM3 View Post
reminds me of the 5 guys that were killed in an e60 m5 some years ago in north florida.,...sad.

i feel for these kids, that was me, and i'm sure many others here. we all made mistakes, it's unfortunate this one cost them everything.
I recall that Florida one, and I also recall that the driver (a teenager, as all 5 were) was on this forum trying to get info on making the car go faster.....thankfully most replies on here were safety-oriented, and cautioning the poster to drive carefully. I think the lawsuits over that one may still be going on. Sad.
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      02-17-2020, 08:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BS_CS View Post
Putting him in a car with lower safety ratings with less technology than today that could potentially prevent a crash? Methinks-not. I'm sure he'll like it, but with my son I'd prefer him driving a newer smaller car, and getting him the proper training to avoid emergency/crash situations. Also I don't think the BMW here was at fault for causing the crash, it unfortunately sounds like maybe the new driver was showing off for friends. Really sad to see.
Because he was driving a 2019 BMW... the Ultimate Driving Machine.
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      02-17-2020, 08:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TrevorM3 View Post
reminds me of the 5 guys that were killed in an e60 m5 some years ago in north florida.,...sad.

i feel for these kids, that was me, and i'm sure many others here. we all made mistakes, it's unfortunate this one cost them everything.
Yeah, on Travolta's airstrip. That one was unreal.
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      02-17-2020, 08:53 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
I wish OEMs would start implementing tech to assist parents. Even a lowly Toyota Corolla will do well over 100MPH. At those speeds I dont care what safety features you have, you're toast of the shit hits the fan and you're an inexperienced driver.

OEMs should allow for "new driver" mode where with a special key (like a valet key) or an app you limit HP, torque, acceleration, wheel spin, and top speed. Give parents a smartphone app that alerts them if their child driver goes outside bounds that are draws on a map or drives the car between midnight and 6:00 AM. Stuff like that. Certainly seems well within reach to be able to tailor the performance of the car to the driver so they can have all the modern safety features of a 2020 model car with all the performance of a 1970s shitbox.
Ford has that tech already.
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      02-17-2020, 11:54 PM   #28
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Ford has that tech already.
Well crap, there goes my get rich quick idea. Oh well. Good for Ford. Hopefully the idea catches on.
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      02-18-2020, 12:59 AM   #29
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My first car was a mid 90s Camry which was 15 years old at the time with 100k miles. It was so slow and mediocre handling I couldn't get myself into too much trouble. With that being said, it was also unsafe. The doors were paper thin, and being FWD it would easily lose traction if I made fast turns on slick NW roads.

On the flip side, giving a kid any car remotely powerful or with a prestigious badge is just asking for trouble.

I'm far from being a parent, but I think some lame slow AWD Subaru for a kid would give me the best piece of mind as a parent.
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      02-18-2020, 08:20 AM   #30
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It's crazy the destruction that occurs at high speeds. A few years ago someone I went to high school with was flying down a main road with his GF very early in the morning. Both were involved with drugs and doing well over 100 mph in a 2002 or so Honda Civic. They lost control on a downward curve and struck a stone wall. The engine of the car was about 50 feet away from the wreck. Both of them died obviously, but the amount of pieces scattered all over the road was insane. The guy who lived across the street said he heard screeching tires and then what sounded like an explosion.
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      02-18-2020, 01:06 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
I wish OEMs would start implementing tech to assist parents. Even a lowly Toyota Corolla will do well over 100MPH. At those speeds I dont care what safety features you have, you're toast if the shit hits the fan and you're an inexperienced driver.

OEMs should allow for "new driver" mode where with a special key (like a valet key) or an app you limit HP, torque, acceleration, wheel spin, and top speed. Give parents a smartphone app that alerts them if their child driver goes outside bounds that are drawn on a map or drives the car between midnight and 6:00 AM. Stuff like that. Certainly seems well within reach to be able to tailor the performance of the car to the driver so they can have all the modern safety features of a 2020 model car with all the performance of a 1970s shitbox.
So wait... Are you saying this wouldn't work?



I wouldn't be surprised if we see Tesla do something like this in the future. Seems like they'd be able to limit power potential on the fly or at the flip of a switch or an app which I'm guessing is easier for electric vehicles than it is for ICE vehicles.
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      02-18-2020, 01:10 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Well crap, there goes my get rich quick idea. Oh well. Good for Ford. Hopefully the idea catches on.
Like the Corona Virus?

Sorry. I couldn't resist. I will disciple myself.
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      02-18-2020, 01:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
So we worry about our kids, but really lots of good stuff happens after midnight, that's why young people want to be out then. In fact, more good stuff happens than bad stuff.
An old dude I worked with 30 years ago used to say "Ain't nothing open after midnight 'cept legs." There's some wisdom there.
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      02-18-2020, 01:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
My first car was a mid 90s Camry which was 15 years old at the time with 100k miles. It was so slow and mediocre handling I couldn't get myself into too much trouble. With that being said, it was also unsafe. The doors were paper thin, and being FWD it would easily lose traction if I made fast turns on slick NW roads.

On the flip side, giving a kid any car remotely powerful or with a prestigious badge is just asking for trouble.

I'm far from being a parent, but I think some lame slow AWD Subaru for a kid would give me the best piece of mind as a parent.
That's the point though, nothing is really that slow nowadays, safer for sure, but also definitely quicker. I remember in high school thinking a V6 Beretta GT was pretty fast. Now every 4 cylinder Camry/Accord and probably Corollas/Civics can beat those.
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      02-18-2020, 01:27 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
My first car was a mid 90s Camry which was 15 years old at the time with 100k miles. It was so slow and mediocre handling I couldn't get myself into too much trouble. With that being said, it was also unsafe. The doors were paper thin, and being FWD it would easily lose traction if I made fast turns on slick NW roads.

On the flip side, giving a kid any car remotely powerful or with a prestigious badge is just asking for trouble.

I'm far from being a parent, but I think some lame slow AWD Subaru for a kid would give me the best piece of mind as a parent.
My first car was a 97 Camry. What it taught me was ...how to drive a slow car fast.

Which in the grand scheme of things, taught me to really learn my vehicles and their limitations before ever attempting anything in them
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      02-18-2020, 01:41 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by BS_CS View Post
So wait... Are you saying this wouldn't work?



I wouldn't be surprised if we see Tesla do something like this in the future. Seems like they'd be able to limit power potential on the fly or at the flip of a switch or an app which I'm guessing is easier for electric vehicles than it is for ICE vehicles.
Maybe the BMW auto group side of the house can talk to BMW Motorrad. New S1000RR bikes are delivered limited in performance up until the factory recommended break in period is completed. The official answer is to ensure proper break in of the mechanicals. Some say it's also to ensure new owners that have never ridden the RR understand the dynamics of the motorcycle. I don't recall if the limiter just goes away after the mileage is reached or if the dealer removes the limiter when the first factory service is done.

Something similar to this could be adapted as a teenager nanny for autos along with the existing riding modes the RR has which has become standard for modern sport bikes. The RR has rain, sport, race, and slick modes from the factory. Here's a list of what each of the modes do:

1. Power Mode: Rain: Power is cut to 150 bhp, reduced torque, and the
throttle response is more gentle.
* 5% throttle dampening
* The braking force is applied to both front and rear wheels (partially
integral brakes)
* Rear wheel ABS operates even when only the rear foot brake is used
* The system detects if the rear wheel is lifting (stoppie protection)
* Wheelie protection operates at 29 degrees lean angle and wheelie angle max 33 degrees, 5 second front wheel lift maximum
* Reduces rear wheel spin
* Increased traction and stability even when the frictional coefficient
spikes suddenly
* Power freeze lean angle 38 degrees

2. Power Mode: Sport (which is the default setting): Full power (193 at the \
crank, approx 183 rwhp) with a fast but smooth throttle response.
* 5% throttle dampening
* The braking force is applied to both front and rear wheels (partially
integral brakes)
* Rear wheel ABS operates even when only the rear foot brake is used
* The system detects if the rear wheel is lifting (stoppie protection)
* Wheelie protection operates at 29 degrees lean angle and wheelie angle max 33 degrees, 5 second front wheel lift maximum
* DTC is slower to intervene than in Rain Mode, so slight drifts are
possible when exiting corners
* Power freeze lean angle 45 degrees

3. Power Mode: Race: Full power but instant throttle response.
* No throttle dampening.
* The braking force is applied to both front and rear wheels (partially
integral brakes)
* Rear wheel ABS operates even when only the rear foot brake is used
* No rear wheel lift detection (stoppie protection)
* Wheelie control none
* DTC even slower to intervene so longer drifts and brief wheelies are
possible when exiting corners
* Power freeze lean angle 48 degrees

4. Power Mode: Slick (coding plug required to be inserted): Full power 193hp with ram air at 160km/h 200hp
* No throttle dampening, an aggressive and instant throttle response.
* The braking force is applied to both front and rear wheels (partially
integral brakes)
* ABS does not operate when only foot brake is used
* No rear wheel lift detection
* Wheelies control none
* Power freeze lean angle 53 degrees
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      02-18-2020, 01:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Maybe the BMW auto group side of the house can talk to BMW Motorrad. New S1000RR bikes are delivered limited in performance up until the factory recommended break in period is completed. The official answer is to ensure proper break in of the mechanicals. Some say it's also to ensure new owners that have never ridden the RR understand the dynamics of the motorcycle. I don't recall if the limiter just goes away after the mileage is reached or if the dealer removes the limiter when the first factory service is done.
This is a software limiter thats flashed off on first service. And this is also a good idea, however, wondering what effect this would have on the final price of the vehicle.

Remember that motorcycles, particularly flagship liter bikes, boast the very latest in tech, but as a result, their price tags reflect this. The stuff on a bike is more than just a speed governor. As seen in your post, there are many systems integrated into the "Modes" that you can set up.

The closest parallel we have to this would be, halo vehicles showcasing the latest tech. I.E, 7er, Lexus LS, etc. But then, look at their MSRPs
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      02-18-2020, 02:06 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ky0u View Post
This is a software limiter thats flashed off on first service. And this is also a good idea, however, wondering what effect this would have on the final price of the vehicle.

Remember that motorcycles, particularly flagship liter bikes, boast the very latest in tech, but as a result, their price tags reflect this. The stuff on a bike is more than just a speed governor. As seen in your post, there are many systems integrated into the "Modes" that you can set up.

The closest parallel we have to this would be, halo vehicles showcasing the latest tech. I.E, 7er, Lexus LS, etc. But then, look at their MSRPs
Point being, the tech has been around and working well for years. It really astounds me that the tech that has been around in performance motorcycles for years have yet or is just appearing in automobiles. The different riding modes for the RR has been around since it's introduction in 2009. Yes, tech such as what we're talking about are introduced in the flagship products. But eventually trickle down to other models in the brand. No different than what happens with automobiles.

The list above doesn't account for the latest updates to the RR which includes electronic suspension damping which first appeared in the HP1 and is now standard on all RRs. The suspension is adjusted based on various things happening with the bike at the time to include lean angle, speed, throttle position, and any differential in wheel speeds. I can tell you first hand the system works very well as I've experienced it on track.
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      02-18-2020, 02:15 PM   #39
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My youngest is driving a shitbox Pontiac Vibe. He's never been interested in going fast. The car for him gets him where he'd like to go, which is often the Train to the City to see friends. There are so many things out there that can kill you. Kids need to be made aware of the dangers. It makes me laugh when folks think that buying their kid a new BMW to keep them safe is a good thing....not even close. That's a show, and lazy. Take your kids out and teach them to drive defensively. Offset lane positions, safe following distances, slowing down in bad weather, shoulder checking, mirrors etc. Don't drink and drive and if you don't think your kid is responsible don't buy them a car that is really fast with a great crash rating and pat yourself on the back.

I was a cop for over 30 years....the majority of the crashes I saw in the wee hours that involved young drivers and catastrophic injuries were privileged kids driving new cars and often BMW's or something similar.....almost never saw those accidents in old shit boxes.

You're forgetting about the other guy in the other car that you have no control over. I certainly will make it point that my kids will have the safest car we can afford. I'm not going to put them in a shit-box just because.

As a former cop, you should know all too well that even the most piece of shit car is capable of "high speed" (i.e. 90mph+), even that truck you're talking about.
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      02-18-2020, 02:21 PM   #40
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even that truck you're talking about.
my truck is capable of 90mph, takes a good half an hour to get there.
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      02-18-2020, 02:29 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Point being, the tech has been around and working well for years. It really astounds me that the tech that has been around in performance motorcycles for years have yet or is just appearing in automobiles. The different riding modes for the RR has been around since it's introduction in 2009. Yes, tech such as what we're talking about are introduced in the flagship products. But eventually trickle down to other models in the brand. No different than what happens with automobiles.

The list above doesn't account for the latest updates to the RR which includes electronic suspension damping which first appeared in the HP1 and is now standard on all RRs. The suspension is adjusted based on various things happening with the bike at the time to include lean angle, speed, throttle position, and any differential in wheel speeds. I can tell you first hand the system works very well as I've experienced it on track.
Agreed on all points here, but I'm also wondering if the issue is that the tech is still not "cost effective" to trickle into the lower models. Quotes around that because I'm sure it's less an issue of being cost prohibitive and moreso effecting their profit margin.

Btw, somewhat off topic but how do you like your s1k? Any weird annoyances or oddities to note? Is the Seating position demanding at all after extended periods of time?
I've been on the fence between a few bikes, this was one of them

I'm like 40%/40%/20% for commute/canyon/track
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      02-18-2020, 07:48 PM   #42
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Agreed on all points here, but I'm also wondering if the issue is that the tech is still not "cost effective" to trickle into the lower models. Quotes around that because I'm sure it's less an issue of being cost prohibitive and moreso effecting their profit margin.

Btw, somewhat off topic but how do you like your s1k? Any weird annoyances or oddities to note? Is the Seating position demanding at all after extended periods of time?
I've been on the fence between a few bikes, this was one of them

I'm like 40%/40%/20% for commute/canyon/track
I'm not familiar with all of the various models of BMW motorcycles. But just picking at random, I found the F900R which has a base price of just under $9000. It has Rain and Road modes. So the tech has trickled down to the more mainstream/budget bikes. As I've been saying it seems there has been a lot of innovation with 2 wheeled vehicles over what is being offered with 4 wheels. Even the act of shifting gears with bikes and cars are worlds apart. First was the invention of the slipper clutch (or back torque limiter). This pretty much eliminated the need to do throttle blips to rev match the engine and the rear wheel speed. This is equivalent of eliminating the need to do heal toe shifting. That technology was available in my 2004 ZX-10R. Then over the past few years saw the advent of clutchless upshifts and then the advent of clutchless downshifts. Outside of having to use the clutch when at a stop or coming to a stop, you can operate a sport bike like an automatic while still having all the advantages of a fully manual setup. If you choose to use the clutch for shifting, you can but I don't know why one would.

I don't own a S1000RR. But have had plenty of seat time at the track with them. I go to VIR when California Superbike School has their camps there. I've done 4 day camps with is a ton of laps. It's what you would expect from any superbike. The seating position is going to be aggressive. I'm tall at 6'5" and in general I struggle with keeping weight off of my wrists/hands as my upper body pretty much hangs over the handle bars all the time. I also do get numbness in my right hand due to the engine vibration being transmitted into that handle bar on top of the weighted hands issue. I don't know about using an RR as a commuter. I'd think it would be absolutely miserable. I have done commutes in both my ZX-10R and 848 through stop and go traffic around the DC Metro area. It's just terrible especially during the summer. Between the fatigue from the forced body position to the bikes getting close to overheating, I can assume the RR would be the same. As a weekend canyon carver or track bike, sure. I'm thinking about replacing the 848 with an RR. I just love the entire package of the RR. I spun up the rear tire of the RR coming out of the roller coaster after turn 17 and wasn't freaked out.
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      02-18-2020, 08:02 PM   #43
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You're forgetting about the other guy in the other car that you have no control over. I certainly will make it point that my kids will have the safest car we can afford. I'm not going to put them in a shit-box just because.

As a former cop, you should know all too well that even the most piece of shit car is capable of "high speed" (i.e. 90mph+), even that truck you're talking about.
The difference is how the car gets to 90 MPH+. Some cars take an eternity to get to those speeds while others can do it under 10. Many times cars which are $hit boxes are more forgiving with poor driver inputs. Which brings up the topic of graduated licensing which has been discussed here before.
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      02-18-2020, 08:05 PM   #44
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