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      03-09-2020, 02:21 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
WoW, those specs made me hard but got a little flaccid when I heard had increase in physical dimensions..

But what a package! The S58 is a better S55 without the crank hub issue..

I'm getting one, potential beaverface-grille or not, I just hope I don't hurt myself with all that power potential
Maybe I'm missing something, but the 2020 CS has better specs than the 2023 base G87. 444hp vs 420hp. 3.8 0-60 for CS with DCT.
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      03-09-2020, 02:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The 2 Series will no longer be available as a convertible after this generation ends, so the M2 must also miss out as a result. Convertibles continue to decline in popularity, and the case cannot be made for another one in the stable. BMW has apparently concluded that the Z4 and 4 Series (including the M4) can effectively cover that segment of the market now.
Long live the 2er Convertible.

Horrible decision on BMW's part.

The 2er Vert had a much better price point.

My next Convertible definitely won't be a BMW.
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      03-09-2020, 02:25 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, but the 2020 CS has better specs than the 2023 base G87. 444hp vs 420hp. 3.8 0-60 for CS with DCT.
Well maybe, but I guess people hope the G87 base price won't be anywhere near the CS...
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      03-09-2020, 02:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamic_m235 View Post
Don't you know their numbers are always bullshit? Lol s58 in an m2 is gunna run mid 3s 0-60 for sure
For a RWD, doing better than 4s is a real challenge, even with 500hp
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      03-09-2020, 02:32 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, but the 2020 CS has better specs than the 2023 base G87. 444hp vs 420hp. 3.8 0-60 for CS with DCT.
Yes, great car also but a S58 is a better motor with a ton of potential; they obviously detuned it to keep it in a lower model hierarchy and I'm sure the next-gen M2 will have a lot of cool, new options (like Comfort Access ) that the CS doesn't offer.

Honestly, now I see why BMW holdback so tight on announcing their newer models because it would obviously outshine their current offerings (duh)..
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      03-09-2020, 02:54 PM   #72
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An interesting part of reading this is it tells you there will be such a thing as the ZF with just RWD.
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      03-09-2020, 02:54 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
An interesting part of reading this is it tells you there will be such a thing as the ZF with just RWD.
As also found in:

G20 330i, M340i
G22 430i, M440i
G23 430i, M440i
G26 430i
G30 530i, 540i
G12 740i
G14 840i
G15 840i
G16 840i
G80 M3
G82 M4
G83 M4

(and many other lower end and diesel models outside the US)
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      03-09-2020, 02:59 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
I wonder if this M2 will be available for European delivery.
I have a feeling that won't be an option. With safety and emissions requirement differences, I'll wager the EU version won't be allowed here.
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      03-09-2020, 03:06 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Bpark1977 View Post
I have a feeling that won't be an option. With safety and emissions requirement differences, I'll wager the EU version won't be allowed here.
It'd still be the NA version, just assembled and delivered in Europe, just like how ED works today for other BMW models.

That said, I also don't think it will be an option. Assembly lines are optimized down to the last nut and bolt and there are parts that are specific to NA spec cars.
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      03-09-2020, 03:08 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
That said, I also don't think it will be an option. Assembly lines are optimized down to the last nut and bolt and there are parts that are specific to NA spec cars.
Yes, my thinking is that their will be slight manufacturing differences and processes between the two factories, making ED impossible.
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      03-09-2020, 03:13 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by dcpatters View Post
that's exactly what I was thinking. For what it's worth, the ZF 8 Speed is not even close to the DCT. Owned a few or each. Hands down, DCT prevails.
What objective reasons do you have why the planetary transmission is "not even close to the DCT"? The shifts are a few milliseconds slower? The ZF 8HP is lighter and has a very aggressive locking torque converter that can bang out shifts. If it comes down to performance figures, I'll bet that the 8HP has zero disadvantages to the DCT.

And isn't that the whole point of the DCT, because you guys keep saying it's faster than manually shifting? If you care about driver engagement over numbers, then you get the manual. If you want an automatic, you get an automatic, DCT or 8HP.
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      03-09-2020, 03:18 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Because an M2 is an F1 car. You must be an amazing driver.

None of this is true. When tuned right the ZF8 is great and will give you any gear short of blowing your motor. It will hold gears as well. Not sure why you hate it so much. Driving it in a Dodge Charger vs an M5 is quite a different experience.
Well it depends on the driving skills of each driver , who are you to judge someone if he cant drive the M2 as a F1 ? ZF8 is a great transmition , its one more than 3.5 million cars , its well known that its much cheaper and lighter too , but it really works different than a dct ! I m sure we will be missing dct boxes , so the next closest its the manual , not the zf8 . Much more aggesive gearbox , its not suprice that it suits high end performance cars . In the meantime i enjoy the dct , the car is a sunday car too , always use it on manual mode as well , and im super happy with the transmition . But Zf? Come on ! Its known that the ZF8 its easier for the carmakers since they can put it on many platforms and tune it differently . Lets see how it compares , its the evolution anyway ! You made the DCT look like an SMG and thats not the case
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      03-09-2020, 03:20 PM   #79
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nice a 420hp front grille.
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      03-09-2020, 03:29 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
What objective reasons do you have why the planetary transmission is "not even close to the DCT"? The shifts are a few milliseconds slower? The ZF 8HP is lighter and has a very aggressive locking torque converter that can bang out shifts. If it comes down to performance figures, I'll bet that the 8HP has zero disadvantages to the DCT.

And isn't that the whole point of the DCT, because you guys keep saying it's faster than manually shifting? If you care about driver engagement over numbers, then you get the manual. If you want an automatic, you get an automatic, DCT or 8HP.
Sure, @ WOT upshifts are ms apart, but overall feel; part throttle, etc, the ZF8 doesn't match up.

Re: my "objective reasons", loads of time driving them, owning, and tuning them. I'd be more than happy to drive you in back to back cars, DCT and ZF8, something tells you'll walk away and say, "You know, you're right."

Look, I am not here as a manual vs auto or DCT guy, I could care less what anyone chooses to drive.
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      03-09-2020, 03:30 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpark1977 View Post
Yes, my thinking is that their will be slight manufacturing differences and processes between the two factories, making ED impossible.
We'll find out soon enough.
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      03-09-2020, 03:41 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
While it has not been officially confirmed, the manual transmission is all but sure not to return in the G42 2 Series. Other than in a few low end four cylinder applications (which are not available in the US), the S58 is the only engine BMW will pair with a manual transmission from now on.

The B58, on the other hand, appears likely to make a return in the G42. There are rumors of an M245i which could mean a B58 TU2 is coming.
I guess I'll have to go for a M2 at that point UNLESS they slap the same ugly embarrassing huge kidney grill on it that they put on the 4s. The article claims, "Aesthetically, the new M2 is said to draw heavily on the M235i xDrive Gran Coupé for inspiration. The two are said to share similar front-end styling, most notably in the shape of the grille and headlights." Personally, I think the kidneys of the current get 2er/M2 are pretty much perfect sized. I saw the new 2GC in person and wasn't enamored with the larger grill. However, it didn't make me vomit in my own mouth the way the 4 grill does. With a longer hood, it perhaps won't look too awful. And having driven a new 3, I do have to admit that CLAR is not a bad platform. Just hope they don't make it too much bigger.

Last edited by MarkDemma; 03-09-2020 at 03:55 PM..
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      03-09-2020, 03:42 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Agree, M2's size is perfect where its at right now. The Mild-Hybrid sounds interesting but, it will require BMW to work around the weight of the car, and the current M2 is already pretty heavy.
If this new M2 doesn't have impressive weight loss vs a 2 series I'm just gonna roll my eyes. BMW cashing in on the M name at that point.

Remember when the original M8 was downgraded to the 850csi because it was too heavy? They thought it would damage the brand and that car is a legend AND had more 'Me to it than the M2 of last gen and this upcoming gen appears to have.
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      03-09-2020, 03:52 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by dcpatters View Post
Sure, @ WOT upshifts are ms apart, but overall feel; part throttle, etc, the ZF8 doesn't match up.

Re: my "objective reasons", loads of time driving them, owning, and tuning them. I'd be more than happy to drive you in back to back cars, DCT and ZF8, something tells you'll walk away and say, "You know, you're right."

Look, I am not here as a manual vs auto or DCT guy, I could care less what anyone chooses to drive.
I bet you I don't. Explain "part throttle". What makes a DCT superior to an 8HP at part throttle? the TC is locked almost all the time. There is no TC slip except at start or slower shifts when it doesn't matter. And how does "overall feel" make a DCT better? How does it make you a better driver? Yes the shifts feel a little crisper, but the car is still shifting for you. You're not doing any of the work like in a manual transmission. So what does it matter?
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      03-09-2020, 03:52 PM   #85
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At this point I don't even want them to come up with a new model.

Just keep building F87, problem solved.
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      03-09-2020, 03:52 PM   #86
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We only have ourselves to blame for the shift away from DCT's. Automakers are phasing out DCT's because North Americans as a whole complained about the clunky slow speed shifting. Audi is also shifting away from them because of this. Everyone likes to think they buy these cars to track them but the reality is that most don't and a lot of the people using these as daily drivers will appreciate the more refined operation and butter smooth shifts of the ZF8. The DCT and the ZF are both very good automatic transmissions and while personally on a car like an M2 or M3 I may prefer a DCT for the rawness ultra-quick downshifts, the ZF would certainly not be a deal breaker for me as it's a really good automatic transmission.
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      03-09-2020, 03:58 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I bet you I don't. Explain "part throttle". What makes a DCT superior to an 8HP at part throttle? the TC is locked almost all the time. There is no TC slip except at start or slower shifts when it doesn't matter. And how does "overall feel" make a DCT better? How does it make you a better driver? Yes the shifts feel a little crisper, but the car is still shifting for you. You're not doing any of the work like in a manual transmission. So what does it matter?
There is no question DCT is the superior transmission here, especially in the manual mode. With Zf8, downshifts have huge lag when asking for two and more shifts braking into a corner, and there is a huge delay until you can get back onto the throttle at the exit. DCT is instant and you can always feel the total connection between the engine and the transmission i.e. driver is in full control of the vehicle.

I do not agree with that "then get a manual" because while DCT doesn't have a third pedal, it makes up for much faster manual shifts with consistency. ZF8 can be fast but is rather inconsistent and struggles to cope with prolonged heavy duty use (track).

Most importantly, DCT's responsiveness just makes driving more enjoyable. I have to second-guess what ZF8 wants to do when pushing around mountain roads and that gets tiring.
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      03-09-2020, 03:58 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
If this new M2 doesn't have impressive weight loss vs a 2 series I'm just gonna roll my eyes. BMW cashing in on the M name at that point.

Remember when the original M8 was downgraded to the 850csi because it was too heavy? They thought it would damage the brand and that car is a legend AND had more 'Me to it than the M2 of last gen and this upcoming gen appears to have.
I remember BMW actually built an M8 prototype with a 550hp V12 as a Ferrari fighter, that was definitely NOT the 850CSi:

https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/05/22/o...arkable-thing/

Unfortunately the bean counters deemed it too expensive and didn't think it would make a profit so they never produced it.
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