Forum for the entire range of BMW electric vehicles
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Off-Topic Discussions Board

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-12-2019, 01:16 PM   #67
ASAP
Major General
ASAP's Avatar
9970
Rep
8,537
Posts

Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
pro tip... never take a counter offier; thats how you become a slave
*You'll become a slave because other companies want you.*


Are you sentient or a bot that works for his robot dad?
taking a counter offer at a current work place has 2 great dangers

1) the company knows you're a flight risk and may only be retaining you temporarily

2) now that u did accept; they can use and abuse you as your other offer has already disappeared and again they have the upper hand
__________________
2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 01:34 PM   #68
David70
Colonel
United_States
1567
Rep
2,665
Posts

Drives: 06 Z4M Coupe - 13 Cadillac ATS
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
taking a counter offer at a current work place has 2 great dangers

1) the company knows you're a flight risk and may only be retaining you temporarily

2) now that u did accept; they can use and abuse you as your other offer has already disappeared and again they have the upper hand
Possible or you have legitimate problems with the current job, you discuss it with them, they fix it and things are ok.

I recently tried to keep an engineer who said he was leaving because he had to travel too much and he wasn't paid enough. I offered to cut his travel and raise his pay. He decided to leave anyway but none of what you are saying would have happened to him, he was a good employee and we wanted him to stay.

"knows you're a flight risk" - almost every good employee is a flight risk, if they find a better job there is a risk they will leave. Really bad employees are the least likely to be a flight risk, they suck and everyone knows it.

"they can use and abuse you" - every employer could do that also but good employers don't do it to good employees as they know there is a risk they will leave. Nothing stopping all "use and abuse" for every employee other than the flight risk.

You make is seem like once you stay at your current employer that all options to ever leave are gone and the employer believes it.
__________________
2006 Z4M Coupe - Stromung exhaust, ZHP knob, stubby antenna, clutch delay delete
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 03:45 PM   #69
ASAP
Major General
ASAP's Avatar
9970
Rep
8,537
Posts

Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
taking a counter offer at a current work place has 2 great dangers

1) the company knows you're a flight risk and may only be retaining you temporarily

2) now that u did accept; they can use and abuse you as your other offer has already disappeared and again they have the upper hand
Possible or you have legitimate problems with the current job, you discuss it with them, they fix it and things are ok.

I recently tried to keep an engineer who said he was leaving because he had to travel too much and he wasn't paid enough. I offered to cut his travel and raise his pay. He decided to leave anyway but none of what you are saying would have happened to him, he was a good employee and we wanted him to stay.

"knows you're a flight risk" - almost every good employee is a flight risk, if they find a better job there is a risk they will leave. Really bad employees are the least likely to be a flight risk, they suck and everyone knows it.

"they can use and abuse you" - every employer could do that also but good employers don't do it to good employees as they know there is a risk they will leave. Nothing stopping all "use and abuse" for every employee other than the flight risk.

You make is seem like once you stay at your current employer that all options to ever leave are gone and the employer believes it.
personally speaking... most people leave for a reason... either better opportunity or feel they havent been treated right... everytime i've been countered and moved on; it was for the better... strictly personal experience
__________________
2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
Appreciate 0
      06-06-2019, 09:55 PM   #70
Turkish Pickle
Banned
United_States
3080
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: '21 330i xDrive
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Is talking behind everyone's back a common thing in all businesses?
I've been working here (as an intern) for about a month now and holy shit it's WAY too much complaining about other teams but no one has the balls to openly communicate the issue or to tell the higher ups to hand it to them either it's just an unending cycle of bitching
Appreciate 1
King Rudi13147.00
      06-07-2019, 05:51 AM   #71
Rmtt
Colonel
Rmtt's Avatar
United_States
8206
Rep
2,250
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW 128i, 2008 LS3 C6
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Pickle View Post
Is talking behind everyone's back a common thing in all businesses?
I've been working here (as an intern) for about a month now and holy shit it's WAY too much complaining about other teams but no one has the balls to openly communicate the issue or to tell the higher ups to hand it to them either it's just an unending cycle of bitching
Unfortunately it is.

Our production teams are like this. We have 9 different teams that alternate shifts.

And lucky me....since I keep such strange hours, I get to interact with all of them and have become the "sounding board" for all of their complaints against each other. For some reason they trust me implicitly. It's because they know I will keep anything they ask in confidence.

But I also tell them that if the matter pertains to the "health" of the company, they have no anonymity as I will bring something to light personally...so they need to "tread lightly" when they confide in me.

But most of the time it's just them needing to get petty stuff off of their shoulders without worrying about repercussions if it were to get back to someone else.

I tell them if they have legitimate concerns, they need to go to their manager, and if that doesn't get anything done...go to the next step.

But we also work with some very dangerous stuff...so no one can afford to be off of their game in this place or someone will get hurt very quickly!
__________________
Everybody has a gameplan....until they get punched in the mouth.
Appreciate 2
      06-07-2019, 07:14 AM   #72
OkieSnuffBox
Major
1803
Rep
1,011
Posts

Drives: '13 135i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: OKC, OK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Pickle View Post
Is talking behind everyone's back a common thing in all businesses?
I've been working here (as an intern) for about a month now and holy shit it's WAY too much complaining about other teams but no one has the balls to openly communicate the issue or to tell the higher ups to hand it to them either it's just an unending cycle of bitching
Yep. I work for a HUGE tech company. But most of the time it's just complaining between my boss and I with stuff like, "If we are redesigning the UI for the 20.1 release, why even bother moving things around in the 19.2 release?"

"Why did they change a feature name in the 19.1 release without telling us?"


But I'm not going to complain too much. Monday, out of nowhere I found out I got a raise and another chunk of RSUs.
Appreciate 1
      06-07-2019, 07:59 AM   #73
King Rudi
Lieutenant Colonel
King Rudi's Avatar
13147
Rep
1,965
Posts

Drives: Meat Suit
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Planet Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Pickle View Post
Is talking behind everyone's back a common thing in all businesses?
I've been working here (as an intern) for about a month now and holy shit it's WAY too much complaining about other teams but no one has the balls to openly communicate the issue or to tell the higher ups to hand it to them either it's just an unending cycle of bitching
Yes......it is. Sadly, if you don't join in you become like me, the outcast; then no one likes you. If you participate and say anything negative about anyone, that person will eventually tell the other person what you said, making you the bad guy. In the event that you don't participate, then you are viewed as uppity or whatever from the person who has initiated the negative banter.

Advice from someone who deals with it ALL DAY LONG (and it's actually happening as I type this) just ignore it. Some people never grow up. Most "adults" are only adults in theory of their age. Most never progress mentally after age 14. Some are able to deal with it and avoid being sucked into it, these people are the ones who typically become supervisors/successful (if that's what you want to call it). I prefer to work in small companies with like-minded individuals who are there only to make money. We don't have to be friends, just have the ability to communicate clearly and stay out of each others way when it comes to raking in cash. Unfortunately this is not the situation I am currently in, but it's safe from a financial standpoint.
Appreciate 4
      06-07-2019, 08:10 AM   #74
Gr-Racing
First Lieutenant
Gr-Racing's Avatar
206
Rep
356
Posts

Drives: E46, F30 335i, 1986 K75
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: GA

iTrader: (1)

I work for a OEM turbine manufacture and I feel the same way, im very good at my job and work 150% harder than all around me but if your not in the buddy buddy click you don't move up, I been working here for five years and got pass a promotion to a newer guy that works less than me but he is buddy buddy with the inner group....

I feel stagnant in my development and current contemplating pulling the rip cord and find somewhere else...

I guess it happens to all of us
Appreciate 2
      06-07-2019, 08:15 AM   #75
Reborn_
Lieutenant
291
Rep
408
Posts

Drives: 2007 BMW Z4MC
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spazzyfry123 View Post
See my original post on the first page some time ago.



After hours of discussion, I stood strong and gave my final "no" a couple hours ago. On to the next!
I am also in engineering management (came up technically), and have had similar struggles. In the beginning, I just did more work because I didn't like how it was done by my reports. After a few years, I learned that while I may do it better or more efficiently, that was not sustainable, so I learned to delegate, even if the results are sub-par. It is a continual struggle though. For more critical things, I still tend to do 'other people's work.' The best way to handle it is to be able to coach them to do better, but that is idealistic (assumes the person is capable and willing - big assumption).

And you made the right choice. Unless you are strictly leaving for money, the extra money from the retaining effort only makes you happy for a month, and then you are unhappy again.

Last edited by Reborn_; 06-07-2019 at 08:23 AM..
Appreciate 1
      06-07-2019, 08:26 AM   #76
Turkish Pickle
Banned
United_States
3080
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: '21 330i xDrive
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmtt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Pickle View Post
Is talking behind everyone's back a common thing in all businesses?
I've been working here (as an intern) for about a month now and holy shit it's WAY too much complaining about other teams but no one has the balls to openly communicate the issue or to tell the higher ups to hand it to them either it's just an unending cycle of bitching
Unfortunately it is.

Our production teams are like this. We have 9 different teams that alternate shifts.

And lucky me....since I keep such strange hours, I get to interact with all of them and have become the "sounding board" for all of their complaints against each other. For some reason they trust me implicitly. It's because they know I will keep anything they ask in confidence.

But I also tell them that if the matter pertains to the "health" of the company, they have no anonymity as I will bring something to light personally...so they need to "tread lightly" when they confide in me.

But most of the time it's just them needing to get petty stuff off of their shoulders without worrying about repercussions if it were to get back to someone else.

I tell them if they have legitimate concerns, they need to go to their manager, and if that doesn't get anything done...go to the next step.

But we also work with some very dangerous stuff...so no one can afford to be off of their game in this place or someone will get hurt very quickly!
For us its not slacking off or not being on their A game - it's stuff like this. The architects design something (its pretty too) but it's out of budget for the owner. Then at the owner's meeting they show it without telling us, and then the owner wants it (completely understandable). But no one tells them they cant afford it, so after the meeting the construction vs design war breaks out. It's annoying because if we coordinate before these meetings stuff like this wouldn't happen...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Now_Rudi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Pickle View Post
Is talking behind everyone's back a common thing in all businesses?
I've been working here (as an intern) for about a month now and holy shit it's WAY too much complaining about other teams but no one has the balls to openly communicate the issue or to tell the higher ups to hand it to them either it's just an unending cycle of bitching
Yes......it is. Sadly, if you don't join in you become like me, the outcast; then no one likes you. If you participate and say anything negative about anyone, that person will eventually tell the other person what you said, making you the bad guy. In the event that you don't participate, then you are viewed as uppity or whatever from the person who has initiated the negative banter.

Advice from someone who deals with it ALL DAY LONG (and it's actually happening as I type this) just ignore it. Some people never grow up. Most "adults" are only adults in theory of their age. Most never progress mentally after age 14. Some are able to deal with it and avoid being sucked into it, these people are the ones who typically become supervisors/successful (if that's what you want to call it). I prefer to work in small companies with like-minded individuals who are there only to make money. We don't have to be friends, just have the ability to communicate clearly and stay out of each others way when it comes to raking in cash. Unfortunately this is not the situation I am currently in, but it's safe from a financial standpoint.
I mean I can be extremely childish too but I also know when to be and when not to be and it's not stuff like this. I'm not really looking to make office friends, a lot of the other interns are from my school too. The cool ones we hang out with outside of work anyway - I don't participate in the bad talking because I'm just an intern. Don't want to be labeled that right off the bat, but it's still pretty annoying to hear all this when all it takes is an email with the director or something CC'd...
Appreciate 2
Rmtt8206.00
King Rudi13147.00
      06-07-2019, 08:43 AM   #77
CTinline-six
Hoonigan
CTinline-six's Avatar
United_States
6789
Rep
3,000
Posts

Drives: '09 328i, '98 Wrangler
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Connecticut

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
Yep. I work for a HUGE tech company. But most of the time it's just complaining between my boss and I with stuff like, "If we are redesigning the UI for the 20.1 release, why even bother moving things around in the 19.2 release?"

"Why did they change a feature name in the 19.1 release without telling us?"


But I'm not going to complain too much. Monday, out of nowhere I found out I got a raise and another chunk of RSUs.















__________________
"Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

-Dr. Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
Appreciate 3
Rmtt8206.00
King Rudi13147.00
      06-07-2019, 08:56 AM   #78
Darth One
drunk poster
Darth One's Avatar
United_States
6613
Rep
3,649
Posts

Drives: M4 GTS | E46 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Answering this question honestly - i truly am not sure what ‘happy in my job’ is.

I am good at my job, and i’m pretty secure and respected within my organization. I know my work is important and my company makes me feel that it (and i) are valued. Finally, i make a great wage and it keeps me in a lifestyle i’m happy with.

But i don’t love my job. It doesn’t inspire a feeling that i would define as happiness. What i’m really happy about is that it pays me well, and i don’t have to do it for unacceptably long hours...and that my income pays for me to do the things that do give me happiness.

But i don’t LOVE my work or get excited about coming to the office or any of that “luuurv what you do and you’ll never work a day in your life” bullshit. I kinda think that we do ourselves a disservice in expecting that in our lives, to be honest.

So i don’t know, am i happy in my current job? What’s the definition?
Appreciate 4
upstatedoc7555.50
jmg18480.00
      06-07-2019, 09:04 AM   #79
CTinline-six
Hoonigan
CTinline-six's Avatar
United_States
6789
Rep
3,000
Posts

Drives: '09 328i, '98 Wrangler
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Connecticut

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
Answering this question honestly - i truly am not sure what ‘happy in my job’ is.

I am good at my job, and i’m pretty secure and respected within my organization. I know my work is important and my company makes me feel that it (and i) are valued. Finally, i make a great wage and it keeps me in a lifestyle i’m happy with.

But i don’t love my job. It doesn’t inspire a feeling that i would define as happiness. What i’m really happy about is that it pays me well, and i don’t have to do it for unacceptably long hours...and that my income pays for me to do the things that do give me happiness.

But i don’t LOVE my work or get excited about coming to the office or any of that “luuurv what you do and you’ll never work a day in your life” bullshit. I kinda think that we do ourselves a disservice in expecting that in our lives, to be honest.

So i don’t know, am i happy in my current job? What’s the definition?
I don't think that concept of loving what you do and never working a day in your life really exists. You can really like your job, but no job is 100% free of stress. I have a few friends who own successful businesses doing what they love, but there is still stress in owning a business and managing a work/life balance, even though their actual work is something they love to do.

Liking what you do, having a good work/life balance, and being financially stable enough where you aren't a slave to your job seems to be the best combination.
__________________
"Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

-Dr. Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
Appreciate 0
      06-07-2019, 09:53 AM   #80
King Rudi
Lieutenant Colonel
King Rudi's Avatar
13147
Rep
1,965
Posts

Drives: Meat Suit
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Planet Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Pickle View Post

I mean I can be extremely childish too but I also know when to be and when not to be and it's not stuff like this. I'm not really looking to make office friends, a lot of the other interns are from my school too. The cool ones we hang out with outside of work anyway - I don't participate in the bad talking because I'm just an intern. Don't want to be labeled that right off the bat, but it's still pretty annoying to hear all this when all it takes is an email with the director or something CC'd...
There is a big difference between being an adult with child-like tendencies (being jovial and a pleasure to be around) versus a child in an adults body. Case in point, when the guy I work with on the side and I do security camera installs, we are constantly joking around and giving each other a hard time. Usually the people within earshot laugh their asses off unless they have a stick up their butt. All the while, we move quickly and work very efficiently together, make our money, educate the customer on their new equipment and get the hell out. We get complimented, referrals and more jobs based off our personalities and our level of professionalism when it comes down to getting the install completed and teaching the customer how to use their equipment in simple terminology all while making them laugh.

This is much different than someone who simply wants to complain, gossip and doesn't bother to communicate with others whose jobs/productivity is impacted by their negative behavior or general lack of concern for anyone other than themselves.

Nothing wrong with being child-like as long as the job/project is completed on time, inside budget and the end user/internal or external customer is satisfied with the result.
Appreciate 4
nyalpine907375.50
Rmtt8206.00
      06-07-2019, 10:26 AM   #81
nyalpine90
Lieutenant General
nyalpine90's Avatar
7376
Rep
11,825
Posts

Drives: MY24 G01 AW Msport
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: L.I. NY

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2016 BMW X4  [9.33]
everything in life has pros and cons, its how you deal with it.

i love my job, deadlines are stressful and people involve in projects makes it worse.
i deal with architects at different levels, rookies, premadonnas, old school etc. Overall is fun career with designs and development of house, apt, etc. I wish salary/raise was better, but my hours are flexible 7 to 3, i can work from home if i need to. None of that micro-managing crap. i keep all my design ahead of schedule since I am the only plumbing designer and been with same firm for 20yrs
Appreciate 1
King Rudi13147.00
      06-07-2019, 10:49 AM   #82
OkieSnuffBox
Major
1803
Rep
1,011
Posts

Drives: '13 135i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: OKC, OK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
*the giant cheetoh*
I think we are the 2nd largest software company in the world, IIRC.
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2019, 09:02 PM   #83
Housekeeping
Lieutenant
596
Rep
469
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Retired at 43. Worked a stressful job for 24 years, sold business now help non profits (volunteer) increase business. Wife’s always been bread winner so I take care of kids more although there’s one left at home and pretty much self-reliant
Appreciate 4
jmg18480.00
Hawkeye2069.50
      06-09-2019, 10:10 PM   #84
Darth One
drunk poster
Darth One's Avatar
United_States
6613
Rep
3,649
Posts

Drives: M4 GTS | E46 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy1616 View Post
Retired at 43. Worked a stressful job for 24 years, sold business now help non profits (volunteer) increase business. Wife’s always been bread winner so I take care of kids more although there’s one left at home and pretty much self-reliant
I like this. I always tell my wife that she has far more potential than me, and she should realize it soon so i can retire to a life of a gentleman of leisure.

She isn’t quite with the program but i’m working on it
Appreciate 5
RickFLM410798.50
Rmtt8206.00
Hawkeye2069.50
      06-13-2019, 04:40 AM   #85
Paul567
New Member
Paul567's Avatar
22
Rep
14
Posts

Drives: Nissan Sentra 2005
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: the USA

iTrader: (0)

I wanna tell you a story of my niece. She'd been working as a teacher at school. First, she went along well but then she and her co-workers been forced to do the cleaning at school cause there ware no cleaners at all! They were cleaning desks and boards, vacuuming and doing other stuffs. Is it ok? Has anybody had the same situation?
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2019, 08:07 AM   #86
C2YT
Private First Class
C2YT's Avatar
United_States
68
Rep
159
Posts

Drives: 2011 e90 335i
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Taylor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by C2YT View Post
I guess I can bring a different perspective here.

Recently graduated in April 2018 with my BBA in Marketing. I have been "interning" at the same company since May 2017. I basically have a full-time load with no benefits, sick days, vacation days, etc. Needless to say it has been a lot of waiting.

We have been in the process of acquiring another company for 5.4B since Feb, 2018. There has been a hiring freeze since then. Multiple cuts, etc etc. Being the low man on the totem pole I have easily been passed over.

April, start of Q2, is finally opening up some positions. Hopefully this last year of waiting will be worth it!
Posted this 3 months ago. So, since then:

I ended up buying my first house (21) at the beginning of April, and the commute was 35 miles each way. This was really my big push.

Between May/June corporate has fired 20+ employees, complete shut down of marketing, engineering, and T&E spend. Only work is "business critical" and has to be approved by upper management. Corporate culture has gone down the drain along with our stock.

Happy to say I accepted a job offer in the Gas and Oil industry as a Sales and Marketing Development Representative. Basically start as inside sales with a push, and the goal to develop into outside sales quickly (6-8 months). Big bonus that my new job is only a 1/2 mile from my new house.

I believe I made the best decision for myself. If you aren't happy where you are at then make a change.
__________________
2011 BMW 335i E90 - FBO w/ Pure Stage 2 Turbo on JB4 BEF
Appreciate 1
King Rudi13147.00
      06-17-2019, 10:51 AM   #87
CANGRKE70
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
CANGRKE70's Avatar
Canada
814
Rep
172
Posts

Drives: 2012 BMW X5
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

My job is chaos but I thrive in chaos.

I recently got passed up for a promotion, where they went external. That kinda sucked.

President made all sorts of promises to keep me from looking outside the company and that I'll be part of the SLT soon.

I'm not actively looking, but also have recruiters reaching out to me every so often. I get paid well for the job I do, and there are a lot of future opportunities in the pipeline to keep me interested in staying with the company.

So to answer the question, I'm happy but not as happy as I could be.
Appreciate 0
      06-18-2019, 07:53 AM   #88
OkieSnuffBox
Major
1803
Rep
1,011
Posts

Drives: '13 135i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: OKC, OK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CANGRKE70 View Post
My job is chaos but I thrive in chaos.

I recently got passed up for a promotion, where they went external. That kinda sucked.

President made all sorts of promises to keep me from looking outside the company and that I'll be part of the SLT soon.

I'm not actively looking, but also have recruiters reaching out to me every so often. I get paid well for the job I do, and there are a lot of future opportunities in the pipeline to keep me interested in staying with the company.

So to answer the question, I'm happy but not as happy as I could be.
I hear ya. I was starting to get frustrated after 2.5 years without a raise. I finally got one a few weeks ago and more stock.

Even though the earliest I would have left would have still been 2 more years from now. Leaving before then would have meant giving up ~$18k in stock before it vests.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:53 AM.




bmw
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST