[erichighley]

This afternoon we stopped by one of our local dealers to replace my wife's X5. After driving a few contenders, we decided on an i3 as the best replacement. When we headed back to the "Team Leader's" office, we were met with a talk about how "transparent" the dealership is (also got a talk about how "blimmerpost" can be misleading). Upon finding a similar vehicle in inventory for dealer trade, he whipped out a number with very little time for us to negotiate. He said that TrueCar would provide us a number of 3% under MSRP and they would throw in .5% for loyalty. The deal seemed mediocre at best, so we asked for some time to think and headed home.

It's been a while since we left, and we've had time to think about the whole encounter. Notwithstanding his unsubstantiated southern draw, the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth. I decided to explore his TrueCar claims, and it seems TrueCar will give us a certificate for nearly $2k under what our "transparent" dealer quoted. Can someone who is more versed in this process walk us through the numbers?


We were quoted the following deal:

2015 i3 BEV
MSRP: $49,195
Discount Value: 3.5%
Tag: $150
Loyalty/Credit: $8,500
Down Payment: $0
Selling Price: $47,473.18

24mo/10k miles
Residual: 63
MF: .00154
Monthly (w/tax): $542.65

I know the loyalty credit with the MSRP doesn't quite make sense, and this is what threw up my flags. I assume he is throwing this into his formula somewhere, but it doesn't show accurately on the spreadsheet he printed for us.

TrueCar immediately quoted $45,935 for an exactly equipped i3. Is my dealer's offer way off base for being "transparent" or am I misunderstanding the two numbers?

[135iUSN]

Just my 2 cents. Keep shopping other dealers.

MF is elevated so they are making money on this line item. I believe BMW base MF for October is .00134

Loyalty credit. Not in agreement. BMW offering $1000 option credit and $7500 Lease cash. Making up your so called 'loyalty' credit.

63% is correct.

:

This is a link to Edmonds forums. Very helpful full of honest answers.

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion...omment_5138270

Yes, forums are your friend.



I'm also shopping i3rex

recent quote from Atlanta dealer

51,495 msrp
3634 discount
1000 BMW credit
7500 lease cash

[2sak2furious]

what was drive off total? 0 down but 0 drive off?

[erichighley]

Originally Posted by 2sak2furious

what was drive off total? 0 down but 0 drive off?

His custom workup sheet didn't make that very clear. There will be $0 down as cap reduction from us, but I am unsure of what they are planning to charge for Acq. and Docs...I've started negotiations with a dealer in GA who is offering me 10% off right out of the chute.

EDIT: On the top of the GA dealer...is a $699 doc fee ridiculous? On my GC I think we paid around $150 for doc, but that was in a different state on an ED deal.

[TimeFor]

Thats a shitty deal. I ran rough numbers and its way less. I assumed CA DMV fees of 400 + 80 but all that would change would be your upfronts anyway. Payment should be under $400 easily.

[TimeFor]

Drop 7 MSD on this deal and your payment drops to $362.43 if you can afford to give BMW a $2800 deposit for two years you'll return $865.44 in savings.

[erichighley]

Originally Posted by TimeFor

Thats a shitty deal. I ran rough numbers and its way less. I assumed CA DMV fees of 400 + 80 but all that would change would be your upfronts anyway. Payment should be under $400 easily.

Thanks for putting the time in to look at the numbers. I'm convinced the initial offer from Bert Smith was way off base. I have another deal going with Roswell in GA that is turning out to be much better. May see if our local dealer will match before committing to an out-of-state deal. Thanks again :thump:

Thoughts take 2? I think another $1k off would convince me, the monthly is already less than we were paying on the X5.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by erichighley

His custom workup sheet didn't make that very clear. There will be $0 down as cap reduction from us, but I am unsure of what they are planning to charge for Acq. and Docs...I've started negotiations with a dealer in GA who is offering me 10% off right out of the chute.

It is absolutely CRITICAL to negotiate all your fees upfront, else they will grow to $1-2K before you know it!

You will have to pay some inception fees. BMW FS lease inception is now $925 (BMW FS raised recently). If you are not watching it like a hawk, your dealer will mark it up to $1+K.

For everything else, start by looking at the latest BMW FS lease Special Offers:
http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...regiontypeid=3

The above will give you true APR (0.00083 or 1.99% APR) and residual (63% on 24mo/10k lease).
They are RIPPING YOUR OFF on your MF of .00154

Normalize for $0 down at signing (other than mandatory inception and reg fees), and start comparing across multiple dealerships.

Originally Posted by erichighley

EDIT: On the top of the GA dealer...is a $699 doc fee ridiculous? On my GC I think we paid around $150 for doc, but that was in a different state on an ED deal.

Yes.
There will be some state registration fees (look them up for your state), and there will be some registration processing fee from the dealer ($150-300), but if you are not careful, your reg fee will make someone rich, and it wont be you

Originally Posted by erichighley

Thanks for putting the time in to look at the numbers. I'm convinced the initial offer from Bert Smith was way off base. I have another deal going with Roswell in GA that is turning out to be much better. May see if our local dealer will match before committing to an out-of-state deal. Thanks again :thump:

Please do not ask them to match.
Ask them to BEAT the other offer!

Originally Posted by erichighley

Thoughts take 2? I think another $1k off would convince me, the monthly is already less than we were paying on the X5.

Your current payment on X5 is irrelevant.

With $0 down (other than inception fees), you should be able to bring your monthly payment into high $2xx range (before tax and other rebates)!

a

[135iUSN]

My crack of a stealer quoted me $700 payment 24/10. $900 out the door.

I took the high road. "I'll think about it and call you back "

Didn't have heart to be overly rude.



Good luck on your deal as I keep looking

[TimeFor]

Originally Posted by erichighley

Thanks for putting the time in to look at the numbers. I'm convinced the initial offer from Bert Smith was way off base. I have another deal going with Roswell in GA that is turning out to be much better. May see if our local dealer will match before committing to an out-of-state deal. Thanks again :thump:

Thoughts take 2? I think another $1k off would convince me, the monthly is already less than we were paying on the X5.

$44,400 is a good price for a $50,495 MSRP car. I'd be surprised if you can get much more out of them.

I have no idea about your docs fees but pay all of that up front regardless. Don't roll doc and acquisitions fees into cap cost. You're blowing money. Pay all fees upfront. Especially at a .00134 MF. That blows but its what BMWFS is charging this month. It's a shit rate but you can't negotiate it. Seriously consider 7 MSD to bring that down 0.00085.

Item 1: I used all of your dealers numbers. Only change I did was pay all fees up front: Difference is $156.48 savings overall by doing that.
Item 2: I used all of your dealers numbers. Only change I did was pay all fees up front and 7 MSD: Difference is $1028.61 savings overall by doing that.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by TimeFor

$44,400 is a good price for a $50,495 MSRP car. I'd be surprised if you can get much more out of them.

He can, and he should!

First of all, dropping $6K from MSRP is not even a good start.
BMW FS currently drops $7.5K as "lease cash" or otherwise known as federal EV credit pass-through, then adds another $1K as "Option Credit". So at MSRP - $8.5K your dealer is still making 100% markup on the car from invoice pricing.

When I was doing homework on my i3 lease last year, the delta from invoice to MSRP on i3's was reported as $3,615 ($45,200 MSRP vs. $41,585 invoice). I can't guaranteed that those #s were correct then, or are still correct now, but he 8% markup from invoice to MSRP is pretty typical for BMW NA. It is even higher on most options. Short of really doing your homework, I would assume that on a $50,495 MSRP car, there is at least $4,040 dealer markup over invoice. And that doesn't even include back-end sales incentives.

So for starters, you should assume that the US invoice price is around $50,495 - $8.5K - $4.04K = $37,955 (likely lower still!), and start negotiating up from there.
Assuming you throw them $500 profit mark-up, your monthly lease payment on 24m/10K lease with 63% residual and 2.99% APR (MF = 0.00125) should be $324.43 / month.
If you drop MF to 0.0083 (APR 1.99%), monthly payment is $313.81.

Good luck!
a

[erichighley]

Originally Posted by 135iUSN

My crack of a stealer quoted me $700 payment 24/10. $900 out the door.

I took the high road. "I'll think about it and call you back "

Didn't have heart to be overly rude.



Good luck on your deal as I keep looking

I've found that a lot of dealers seem to be AWFULLY proud of their baby i3

To everyone else: Thanks for putting in some brain time. Leasing has so many variables that some times I work myself into a migraine trying to manipulate all of them. It's stressful, but at the same time I think I like it

We had a great relationship with our old CA before our move. With him I was fine with throwing a little more his way, and he was always willing to negotiate to a truly reasonable position that we were both happy with. I think being a BMW Center of Excellence really does make a difference, unfortunately Florida is a little light on those (read: there are none).

Next move is to check out one more dealer down in Sarasota this weekend and hopefully wrap this up.

[2sak2furious]

Just my way of thinking about leases:

I used to get crazy about all the numbers - MF, residual, cap, interest etc. but bottom line its a lease. If you don't care about what happens at the end of the 24 mos or 36 mos and are just returning the car back, then its only a matter of how much you spend for the total lease period.

Ie, monthly payments + drive off.

Figure out how much you want that total to be and youre good. Let the dealer worry about making the numbers work.

I also try to get lowest drive off since if there is problem with the car mid-lease then that money is gone. I think its funny when people put like 10000 down to get a lower monthly???

Good luck!

[135iUSN]

My problem and goal

I want a loaded Rex for the lease of standard Rex

269 mo :thumbs:

recent offer from dealer...

I still have USAA to add to deal.. if I can get MF down...

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by 135iUSN

I want a loaded Rex for the lease of standard Rex
269 mo

recent offer from dealer...

I still have USAA to add to deal.. if I can get MF down...

There are MANY things wrong with these #s.
For starters, they are saddling you with the total of $1,995 work of fees, not including the strange $300 tax! That's very rough, bordering on obscene.

Than there is a BIG problem with dealer's math.
Taken at face value, at $5,213 down payment on 24m/10K lease, you should be looking at the monthly payment of $200.24.
Yet they quote you $462.

To turn $200.24 monthly payment (assuming 54,895 MSRP, $44,750 purchase price, MF of 0.00125 on 24 month/10K lease with 63% residual) into $462/month, there has to be another $6.1K of dealer profit tucked in there by your CA

At $0 down (never pay down the lease, as money is lost in case of an insurance claim), monthly payment should be $423.94.

Originally Posted by 2sak2furious

I used to get crazy about all the numbers - MF, residual, cap, interest etc. but bottom line its a lease. If you don't care about what happens at the end of the 24 mos or 36 mos and are just returning the car back, then its only a matter of how much you spend for the total lease period.

Ie, monthly payments + drive off.

Figure out how much you want that total to be and youre good. Let the dealer worry about making the numbers work.

That is a great way to get fleeced.

Leases are useful if you can do the math, can keep up with the dealer shenanigans, and only need/want the car for a few years.
There are more variables involved in a lease vs. purchase, so more room to get @#$%ed. Unless you know the math and enjoying negotiating against people who do it for a living, you will get taken. Badly.

a

P.S.: If you are BMW CCA member, you can subtract $500 post delivery (no need to mention to the dealer).

[135iUSN]

Welcomed feedback for sure - thanks

$300 tax is legit..it's the max sales tax when registered in SC.

CCA rebate is null if you use the USAA $1000 cash.

Other fees BS in my mind as well, a 299 doc fee is plenty profit for them.

I'm in no rush, so I'll probably wait until year end deals and play my cards at that time..

Thanks again!

[erichighley]

Does anyone know what base MF is for November 2015? What about the $1,000 options credit, is that no longer available?

Getting REAAAAAL close to coming to an agreement here

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by afadeev

He can, and he should!

First of all, dropping $6K from MSRP is not even a good start.
BMW FS currently drops $7.5K as "lease cash" or otherwise known as federal EV credit pass-through, then adds another $1K as "Option Credit". So at MSRP - $8.5K your dealer is still making 100% markup on the car from invoice pricing.

When I was doing homework on my i3 lease last year, the delta from invoice to MSRP on i3's was reported as $3,615 ($45,200 MSRP vs. $41,585 invoice). I can't guaranteed that those #s were correct then, or are still correct now, but he 8% markup from invoice to MSRP is pretty typical for BMW NA. It is even higher on most options. Short of really doing your homework, I would assume that on a $50,495 MSRP car, there is at least $4,040 dealer markup over invoice. And that doesn't even include back-end sales incentives.

So for starters, you should assume that the US invoice price is around $50,495 - $8.5K - $4.04K = $37,955 (likely lower still!), and start negotiating up from there.
Assuming you throw them $500 profit mark-up, your monthly lease payment on 24m/10K lease with 63% residual and 2.99% APR (MF = 0.00125) should be $324.43 / month.
If you drop MF to 0.0083 (APR 1.99%), monthly payment is $313.81.

Good luck!
a

Realize this is an old thread, but wanted to point out that $k plus off did NOT include the $7,500 lease cash.

[erichighley]

Well boys and girls, I have bittersweet news. Brought my wife in to drive an i3 prior to doing the deal and she just could not get comfortable with it. This is her baby, so I let her scope out the dealership and decide on what to go with. We ended up walking out with signed papers for a 2016 X1.

Part of me is a little torn up, because I (personally) was really excited for the i3. Having said that, the X1 is a great little car, and she'll be happier with it in the long run (which makes me happier in the long run, too).

If anyone on the better side of Tampa Bay is looking for a new BMW, Mary Keller and crew at Ferman were wonderful to work with, and I can't recommend them enough.

We'll be back to take a look at the LCI in 2017....someone unplug me

[-c-]

Originally Posted by erichighley

Well boys and girls, I have bittersweet news. Brought my wife in to drive an i3 prior to doing the deal and she just could not get comfortable with it. This is her baby, so I let her scope out the dealership and decide on what to go with. We ended up walking out with signed papers for a 2016 X1.

Part of me is a little torn up, because I (personally) was really excited for the i3. Having said that, the X1 is a great little car, and she'll be happier with it in the long run (which makes me happier in the long run, too).

If anyone on the better side of Tampa Bay is looking for a new BMW, Mary Keller and crew at Ferman were wonderful to work with, and I can't recommend them enough.

We'll be back to take a look at the LCI in 2017....someone unplug me

What was the problem she couldn't get comfortable with. Just curious, my wife too was put off initially with the regen brakes now it's just second nature for her, but she still hates the fact that she has to remove the seat belt if someone wants to get into the rear seat behind her. So in general the coach doors are the one thing she wants changed. But I like them hehe.....

[erichighley]

Originally Posted by -c-

What was the problem she couldn't get comfortable with. Just curious, my wife too was put off initially with the regen brakes now it's just second nature for her, but she still hates the fact that she has to remove the seat belt if someone wants to get into the rear seat behind her. So in general the coach doors are the one thing she wants changed. But I like them hehe.....

Yeah, the regen was just too much I think. I'm sure it's something you get used to, but it's hard to get adjusted and comfortable with a brand new way of driving in a 5min test drive. I was actually really pleased with the legroom in the back seats, and I didn't think the trunk capacity was too bad either, but she also had concerns surrounding Hurricane evac. Just the level of anxiety those two things would've brought about for her didn't make it a worthwhile venture.

We would've loved to have been early adopters, but hopefully by the time our 36m X1 lease is up something along the lines of an X5e will be an option.