[UltimateMoneyShifter]

Originally Posted by sor

I am not a tax attorney. But in general my opinion is that in 99% case you just claim the credit, put the date of your purchase agreement in the tax form, and that's that.

There's a small chance they ask for documentation. At that point I figure if you have any written agreement to buy the car to back up your date I have a hard time imagining they will spend time poring over the details of your specific agreement to see if it meets some non-existent fine print detail of what binding is. Maybe if you're being audited for other more serious reasons they will spend more time on it.

I can't imagine the complexity for the IRS in enforcing these new rules.

If we go off the current forms for EV tax credits, it basically just asks for a VIN.

With these new laws, it should be possible to figure out whether a vehicle was made in North America with the VIN and when it was "put into service," but the transition period caveat makes it a lot more complex. You could have a "binding agreement" but not the car until much later.

I can imagine a lot of mistakes being made while filing just because of the sheer ambiguity of this new bill, because:
1) people didn't know the old rules around non-NA assembly had lapsed
2) people are not sure about what makes up a binding agreement

There have been reports of the EV tax credit system being abused in the past. I can't imagine this will make this any better, especially with the low audit rates.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by UltimateMoneyShifter

I can't imagine the complexity for the IRS in enforcing these new rules.

If we go off the current forms for EV tax credits, it basically just asks for a VIN.

With these new laws, it should be possible to figure out whether a vehicle was made in North America with the VIN and when it was "put into service," but the transition period caveat makes it a lot more complex. You could have a "binding agreement" but not the car until much later.

I can imagine a lot of mistakes being made while filing just because of the sheer ambiguity of this new bill, because:
1) people didn't know the old rules around non-NA assembly had lapsed
2) people are not sure about what makes up a binding agreement

There have been reports of the EV tax credit system being abused in the past. I can't imagine this will make this any better, especially with the low audit rates.

Hence the 87,000 new IRS agents to be hired, I suppose. More than the population of Delaware, doubling their current force.

[sor]

I use TurboTax, and I imagine they would just code it in as a simple questionnaire like they have with other things like home energy credits. Enter VIN, maybe a date of purchase agreement, and then it will decide if you qualify or don't.

Hopefully the same for other tax prep services. I'm sure if you're old school and do it all by hand it could get confusing about what has changed, but even then I'll bet the tax form required to claim the credit will have these same things spelled out. It would be easier to just fill out anyway and submit even when you don't qualify, though.

[UltimateMoneyShifter]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

Hence the 87,000 new IRS agents to be hired, I suppose. Which will put their total manpower at greater than all of the uniformed services combined, including the Pentagon.

I think it comes down to how they flag returns for an audit. They can certainly flag more returns given more IRS personnel, but if they are not looking for the right thing in software, it will be moot.

[grueber]

I have a signed and dated order for my iX from end of June if the IRS asks. Doubt they would demand more than that.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by UltimateMoneyShifter

I think it comes down to how they flag returns for an audit. They can certainly flag more returns given more IRS personnel, but if they are not looking for the right thing in software, it will be moot.

Excess comparison amended . It actually only doubles their workforce, so perhaps they'll be too busy to bother....

[sor]

I usually keep my taxes simple and probably don't itemize nearly as much as I could, just the obvious things. I feel like this keeps my audit risk low, I pay enough in taxes that I imagine if they audited me and I actually hired a tax attorney they'd regret it, I'd end up owing less

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by sor

I usually keep my taxes simple and probably don't itemize nearly as much as I could, just the obvious things. I feel like this keeps my audit risk low, I pay enough in taxes that I imagine if they audited me and I actually hired a tax attorney they'd regret it, I'd end up owing less

One random audit in my tax life and my lawyer handled it -I didn't owe anything or get anything back. But depending on your taxes, it can be a PITA.

[hilld]

Even if they are going to hire 87k tax auditors, where are they going to find those people that want to paid on a GS payscale compared to what they can make in the private sector. It will take a decade or more to add that volume of people.

[Protocol_10]

https://www.slashgear.com/958060/whi...ev-tax-credit/

This article should help those who have questions about the tax credit. According to the language of the bill, if you don't have some kind of legally binding contract (buyer's order/purchase order) on your incoming EV before President Biden signs it into law this week, you're out of luck. BMW dealerships will not provide this to you until your iX is at least in the US port (and not on stop sale). Deposits, numbers worksheets, and having your name on an order doesn't qualify as "binding" as you can always back out of it.

There may be a small chance the IRS or Secretary of State will allow a grace period until the end of the year, but don't count on it. There's also a chance the IRS will only consider the year your iX is placed into service, and not factor in the "transition rule" verbatim

To sum it up: If you obtain a buyer's order BEFORE Biden signs the law, you're safe. If your i4 or iX arrives AFTER Biden signs the law, but before January 1st, 2023, you may have a *small* chance to get the credit (dependent upon IRS guidance). If your i4 or iX comes in 2023, you get nothing.

[hilld]

It was pointed out on various other forums that binding doesn't obligate you to purchase, but rather locks in the pricing, meaning that the dealer can't change the terms of the agreement after the fact, but again, I AM NOT A LAWYER and contract interpretation is an art.

[Protocol_10]

Originally Posted by hilld

It was pointed out on various other forums that binding doesn't obligate you to purchase, but rather locks in the pricing, meaning that the dealer can't change the terms of the agreement after the fact, but again, I AM NOT A LAWYER and contract interpretation is an art.

Pricing cannot be 'locked in' until a purchase order or retail contract is signed. Only contracts are binding. Otherwise, a dealer can absolutely change the terms of the agreement after the fact (though they often don't). If you signed a numbers worksheet, there is fine print at the bottom that clearly states it "isn't an offer or contract for sale"

I currently sell BMW's, so I may have some insight

[sor]

How do you figure that a preorder with deposit and a production number or VIN is not binding?

I looked this up yesterday, binding just means "legally enforceable", which according to Cornell Law school is defined as four things:

mutual assent - in writing an offer is made and accepted (car details and price agreed upon).

Adequate consideration - is it a reasonably fair trade according to the market? Or is someone fleecing you, or selling you something for peanuts to skirt tax laws or something?

Capacity - IOW are you old enough to make such a binding agreement?

Legality - is it legal for them to sell you this vehicle? Or are they trying to sell you a car they don't own or something?

My deposit slip has a production number on it and states the deposit is for the purchase of a specific vehicle with a specific VIN, with the build sheet and price attached. It doesn't state specifically that this is not a contract. This would seem to satisfy mutual assent and the other items.

Now, in honesty I'd prefer something a little more solid, and I'm going to ask to see what they can do, but I also don't think you have to have a formal sales document to satisfy a "binding agreement". Legally enforceable agreements have been made on napkins.

Additionally, I don't think the IRS is equipped to read the fine print on every agreement and try to determine what is binding and what is not, if the proper clauses were included, etc. it's worth trying to claim the credit if you have any documentation that you ordered the car in advance. Binding depends on jurisdiction, in some places just the acceptance of a deposit or value exchanged is proof and agreement exists.

[sor]

I guess put another way - if they didn't deliver the car on the deposit document to me, and didn't give me my deposit back, could I win in small claims and get my deposit back based on this deposit document?

If yes, this seems like it meets the definition of a legally enforceable agreement. If no, then we need something more solid. A "binding agreement to purchase" doesn't have to guarantee the purchase will occur, it provides for an outcome if the purchase doesn't occur.


Adding caveats that I'm not a lawyer and thus have no real clue what I'm talking about do your best to cover yourself with whatever documents you can get.

[hilld]

Originally Posted by jtrock97

Pricing cannot be 'locked in' until a purchase order or retail contract is signed. Only contracts are binding. Otherwise, a dealer can absolutely change the terms of the agreement after the fact (though they often don't). If you signed a numbers worksheet, there is fine print at the bottom that clearly states it "isn't an offer or contract for sale"

I currently sell BMW's, so I may have some insight

I am staring at an order for a Mini Cooper SE that I also have, it clearly lists all the pricing including deposit, it is signed by the customer and the GM of the dealership.

The only "fine print" if you can call it that is that the customer may obtain their own financing, percentage rate and terms. That is it.

So, I guess it comes down to what is considered binding and like I said, this is going to be argued for a while, unless the rules are slightly relaxed to include these orders, but not yet delivered scenarios.

[Protocol_10]

Originally Posted by sor

I guess put another way - if they didn't deliver the car on the deposit document to me, and didn't give me my deposit back, could I win in small claims and get my deposit back based on this deposit document?

If yes, this seems like it meets the definition of a legally enforceable agreement. If no, then we need something more solid. A "binding agreement to purchase" doesn't have to guarantee the purchase will occur, it provides for an outcome if the purchase doesn't occur.


Adding caveats that I'm not a lawyer and thus have no real clue what I'm talking about do your best to cover yourself with whatever documents you can get.

A deposit slip is not binding. Most dealers will make you sign a document explaining the deposit is *non-refundable* should you change your mind. If you threaten to call the police or take the dealer to small claims court over not refunding your deposit, they will simply show where you signed, or refund your deposit to avoid the hassle. As you can see, that would not be considered "binding" as they aren't forced to give the car to you.

By placing a deposit on an order, you have zero legal ownership rights. The dealer is not required by law to sell you the car. Your dealer can raise the price of the car *right now*, and if you disagree they can refund your deposit and remove your name from the ordered unit to sell to someone else. Until you sign a buyer's order or retail contract, you have no legal recourse.

Should you sign a buyer's order or contract and your dealer decides to change the terms after the fact, you can present the signed contract as evidence in court. If you attempt to show a deposit slip or numbers worksheet in court, your case will be dismissed.

Keep in mind, your dealer will not finalize the sale of the car to you until your car arrives (or is close to arrival). This would present a liability issue for the dealership should the car arrive damaged (or not at all), and it's not worth the risk.

To sum it up: Until you actually PURCHASE the car, you have no recourse. Purchasing the car includes providing your promised down payment (or complete payment), approval from your lender (if financing), delivery of your car, and the dealer physically signing the contract agreeing to release the car to you. If you don't have that, what you have is not binding.

[Sheva_BMW]

It might be binding. Fisker is doing that with preorders and I just received email from Lucid. This is wording there

This past weekend, the Senate passed the Inflation Reduction Act, which eliminates the $7,500 tax credit for sedans with an MSRP over $55,000. This means that if the bill is enacted, Lucid Air will no longer qualify for this tax credit. The House is expected to vote on the bill this Friday, August 12.

Many of you have asked what we can do to help you maintain your eligibility for this tax credit.*

The current text of the bill includes a “transition rule,” which may maintain eligibility for Lucid customers who enter into a contract to purchase their Lucid Air before the bill is signed. We’ve decided to help reservation holders take advantage of the transition rule by opening a window to place an order for their Lucid Air. This window is now open, and will remain so until 12 a.m. the morning the bill is passed, which could be as soon as this Friday.

To be completely clear, you don’t have to place an order now and your reservation will remain in place — we’re doing this to help those who want to do everything possible to maintain eligibility for the federal tax credit. If you don’t wish to place an order now, you’ll still have the opportunity to do so closer to your vehicle’s production date. Please note that placing an order now will not alter the expected delivery timelines for Touring and Pure.

However, if you decide to place an order now, please understand you’ll be entering into a contract, and your deposit will become non-refundable.

To place your order, log into your Lucid account, go to your “Designs and Orders” tab, identify the relevant reservation and click the “Order” button. A pop-up window will appear where you can again click “Confirm this order” to complete the process.

[grueber]

Originally Posted by hilld

It was pointed out on various other forums that binding doesn't obligate you to purchase, but rather locks in the pricing, meaning that the dealer can't change the terms of the agreement after the fact, but again, I AM NOT A LAWYER and contract interpretation is an art.

Neither is the IRS. Claim it and if the IRS challenges it produce the documentation you have. At worst pay the difference and a small amount of interest later.

[Protocol_10]

Originally Posted by hilld

I am staring at an order for a Mini Cooper SE that I also have, it clearly lists all the pricing including deposit, it is signed by the customer and the GM of the dealership.

The only "fine print" if you can call it that is that the customer may obtain their own financing, percentage rate and terms. That is it.

So, I guess it comes down to what is considered binding and like I said, this is going to be argued for a while, unless the rules are slightly relaxed to include these orders, but not yet delivered scenarios.

I sold MINI's for 2 years, and can still sell them. There is a $250 deposit for MINI SE's that you must submit online through MINI's website. The website clearly states the deposit is fully refundable, and you have the option to cancel your order. That is non-binding.

The dealer will be morally obligated to honor your agreed-upon price, but they can refund your deposit & refuse to sell you the car if they wished to. The car officially belongs to the dealer until they officially transfer ownership to you. This process happens when you finalize paperwork upon arrival of your ordered car, and you sign a contract.

[jsclarke99]

https://flip.it/2y3h4y

[Protocol_10]

Originally Posted by Sheva_BMW

It might be binding. Fisker is doing that with preorders and I just received email from Lucid. This is wording there

This past weekend, the Senate passed the Inflation Reduction Act, which eliminates the $7,500 tax credit for sedans with an MSRP over $55,000. This means that if the bill is enacted, Lucid Air will no longer qualify for this tax credit. The House is expected to vote on the bill this Friday, August 12.

Many of you have asked what we can do to help you maintain your eligibility for this tax credit.*

The current text of the bill includes a “transition rule,” which may maintain eligibility for Lucid customers who enter into a contract to purchase their Lucid Air before the bill is signed. We’ve decided to help reservation holders take advantage of the transition rule by opening a window to place an order for their Lucid Air. This window is now open, and will remain so until 12 a.m. the morning the bill is passed, which could be as soon as this Friday.

To be completely clear, you don’t have to place an order now and your reservation will remain in place — we’re doing this to help those who want to do everything possible to maintain eligibility for the federal tax credit. If you don’t wish to place an order now, you’ll still have the opportunity to do so closer to your vehicle’s production date. Please note that placing an order now will not alter the expected delivery timelines for Touring and Pure.

However, if you decide to place an order now, please understand you’ll be entering into a contract, and your deposit will become non-refundable.

To place your order, log into your Lucid account, go to your “Designs and Orders” tab, identify the relevant reservation and click the “Order” button. A pop-up window will appear where you can again click “Confirm this order” to complete the process.

The "However, if you decide to place an order now, please understand you’ll be entering into a *CONTRACT*, and your deposit will become non-refundable" part is key here. Fisker is willing to provide contracts to customers who placed an order. BMW is not currently willing to do that.

[thenewguy]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

Hence the 87,000 new IRS agents to be hired, I suppose. More than the population of Delaware, doubling their current force.

Don’t you worry, buddy; they’re only going after the really rich people! Promise!