[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

It is funny to read other posters thinking Tesla's latest FSD efforts are ground breaking.

But it gets serious to realize how dangerous such uninformed trust can lead to overconfidence of Tesla drivers on the road next to me ....

Simply put, the latest AI HW + SW is around the cognitive capabilities of a 1-year old.

I know; Elon does a great job as a hype man.
There is plenty of really good ADAS tech; Nvidia, Continental, Cruise, etc.
They just don't have hype men.

I tend to stay away from Tesla drivers. Recently saw one with the weight on the steering wheel. She was in the passing lane doing 70+ fully occupied with texting. The law does not have an exception for texting while driving for Tesla drivers.

The 1 year old is interesting. I'm not sure it's that advanced, but then I don't need my car to drive for me.

But with that being said you can get these on the i4 M50:
Google/Apple Smartphone integration
BMW Digital Key
Proper alarm
360 view
Head up display (I like the one in the 7)
Distance Control (ACC with Stop&Go)
Front collision
Active steering intervention
City braking
Lane departure
Automatic Speed Limit Assist
Wrong way detect
Cross Traffic
Backup assistant
Check parking spaces by driving by
GPS based regen braking
Drive recorder

There is some other stuff.
I'm not sure what I would add, except the driver monitoring. The 7 series I have right now has it. Makes sure you don't fall asleep at the wheel.

Overall I like the i4 M50 even with the porky weight, low power (if you can call 500+ low) and the compromise on range.
I have driven just about every M car sold and owned a few. New M cars just don't do it for me. They don't feel a whole lot better than my 335i on the street. Faster? Yeah, but I already run out of road before I run out of car.

So I couldn't justify the purchase of a new twin turbo car. That's why I went for the i4 M50.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

It is funny to read other posters thinking Tesla's latest FSD efforts are ground breaking.

But it gets serious to realize how dangerous such uninformed trust can lead to overconfidence of Tesla drivers on the road next to me ....

Simply put, the latest AI HW + SW is around the cognitive capabilities of a 1-year old.

As well as that level or moral and philosophical capabilities. There is a problem the industry has not yet solved, if it is indeed ever solvable. I've spoken with others in our business and questioned suppliers in this area to no avail. The issue is that someone needs to decide, a priori, how to handle situations without a good outcome. If the dynamic parameters of the vehicle in a sudden and critical situation mean hitting an adult pedestrian, a child, or run into a tree and possibly risk the occupants, how is that programming to be decided? Dr. Z at MB, before retirement, said they will always protect the driver. But what does that mean if the alternative is to hit a pedestrian, or any other situation you can conjur? In the heat of the moment, a human driver does the best they reflexively can, but the concept of devising the algorithm with these kinds of decisions is chilling.

Recently, a Toyota autonomous vehicle at the Paralympics in Japan ran down a blind pedestrian crossing in front of it...injured, but survived. The Toyota CEO subsequently was quoted in Automotive News as stating to the effect that we are not ready for self driving vehicles on public roads.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

As well as that level or moral and philosophical capabilities. There is a problem the industry has not yet solved, if it is indeed ever solvable. I've spoken with others in our business and questioned suppliers in this area to no avail. The issue is that someone needs to decide, a priori, how to handle situations without a good outcome. If the dynamic parameters of the vehicle in a sudden and critical situation mean hitting an adult pedestrian, a child, or run into a tree and possibly risk the occupants, how is that programming to be decided? Dr. Z at MB, before retirement, said they will always protect the driver. But what does that mean if the alternative is to hit a pedestrian, or any other situation you can conjur? In the heat of the moment, a human driver does the best they reflexively can, but the concept of devising the algorithm with these kinds of decisions is chilling.

Recently, a Toyota autonomous vehicle at the Paralympics in Japan ran down a blind pedestrian crossing in front of it...injured, but survived. The Toyota CEO subsequently was quoted in Automotive News as stating to the effect that we are not ready for self driving vehicles on public roads.

Yes, what is called the classic "Trolley Dilemma".
There are variations, but for autonomous driving systems it does boil down to kill people on the street or the driver.

There has to be an agreement at the government level that says if you adhere to a particular standard, that a company will be indemnified against lawsuits.

We are not ready yet.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

The 1 year old is interesting. I'm not sure it's that advanced, but then I don't need my car to drive for me.

Do u see the below descriptions as fair?

"Common sense. “One of the secrets of children’s learning is that they construct models or theories of the world. Toddlers may not learn how to play chess, but they develop common-sense ideas about physics … even 1-year-old babies know a lot about objects: They are surprised if they see a toy car hover in midair or pass through a wall, even if they’ve never seen the car or the wall before.”

One of the grand challenges in AI is to design a system that understands how the world works as well as an 18-month old. AI does best with applications and test sets that closely resemble those used in the training set, but it does much less well when attempting to generalize or extrapolate beyond its training data sets.

https://blog.irvingwb.com/blog/2021/...a-toddler.html

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

As well as that level or moral and philosophical capabilities. There is a problem the industry has not yet solved, if it is indeed ever solvable. I've spoken with others in our business and questioned suppliers in this area to no avail. The issue is that someone needs to decide, a priori, how to handle situations without a good outcome. If the dynamic parameters of the vehicle in a sudden and critical situation mean hitting an adult pedestrian, a child, or run into a tree and possibly risk the occupants, how is that programming to be decided? Dr. Z at MB, before retirement, said they will always protect the driver. But what does that mean if the alternative is to hit a pedestrian, or any other situation you can conjur? In the heat of the moment, a human driver does the best they reflexively can, but the concept of devising the algorithm with these kinds of decisions is chilling.

Recently, a Toyota autonomous vehicle at the Paralympics in Japan ran down a blind pedestrian crossing in front of it...injured, but survived. The Toyota CEO subsequently was quoted in Automotive News as stating to the effect that we are not ready for self driving vehicles on public roads.

My take on this is that any FSD from any automaker needs to come with full liability coverage from automaker, or else I do not want any trace of FSD HW + SW in my car.

In that regard, the realistic approach is that individual rides a FSD car as a passenger, e.g. Uber/Lyft, and full liability is carried by Uber/Lyft/whoever.

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by phantom701

With regards to the glass roof, Tesla managed to build the car in a way that's extremely efficient. In fact, their Model 3 and Model Y are superior in their efficiency compared to the i4 with no glass roof. Worse, the BMW i4 is EXTREMELY heavy!! WHY??!! It just shows how far behind BMW is on EV.

If you compared to the concept i4, it has a ton of other creature comforts. If you just go back to watching this video, you'll see how far off the 85% similarity the concept car is to the actual production car.

A huge missed opportunity!

Agree 100%

Not sure how anyone can say the production car is nearly identical to the concept or even 85%. Hood and grille, roof, interior seating, headlights etc certainly calculate to more than 15% difference.

I was so pumped when I saw the concept, then the production car appeared and I was pretty much out.

I saw the new M4 and front end design (specifically the front fascia and the hood integration resembles more of the i4 concept than the actually production model (at least to my eye)

[zilla91]

Well I for one quite like the fact it looks like a "normal" car and not some weird overly stylised thing that screams out "I'm electric!"

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

Agree 100%

Not sure how anyone can say the production car is nearly identical to the concept or even 85%. Hood and grille, roof, interior seating, headlights etc certainly calculate to more than 15% difference.

I was so pumped when I saw the concept, then the production car appeared and I was pretty much out.

This is quite the Rorschach Test!

Clearly the exterior surface/parts are not identical, but to me the resemblance is strong and the differences are so minor as to be irrelevant. I didn't like it as concept and I don't like it now, but might get one anyway despite the design, as the driving experience among potential BEV competitors is far more important to me than design.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Yes, what is called the classic "Trolley Dilemma".
There are variations, but for autonomous driving systems it does boil down to kill people on the street or the driver.

There has to be an agreement at the government level that says if you adhere to a particular standard, that a company will be indemnified against lawsuits.

We are not ready yet.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My take on this is that any FSD from any automaker needs to come with full liability coverage from automaker, or else I do not want any trace of FSD HW + SW in my car.

In that regard, the realistic approach is that individual rides a FSD car as a passenger, e.g. Uber/Lyft, and full liability is carried by Uber/Lyft/whoever.

You both offer cogent thoughts about the liability aspect for ADAS L5 where a driver has zero input. I think there are additional concerns that will complicate this situation further. Based on manufacturer programming decisions, such as the one hinted at by MB at that time, will some vehicles be known as "driver biased" vs. "pedestrian biased" as some consumers would be horrified to think their car will target another person to possibly save themselves....or vice versa? Will this be a selectable feature a driver can change as desired? Will it need to trigger an external warning signal..."I will intentionally hit you to save me?". Will all vehicles become "driver biased" for market competitive reasons and with what consequences? I asked a VP at a supplier company which will remained unnamed about this issue during an industry seminar and she refused to discuss it.

We are not only not ready technologically and legally, but we have no idea how to become ready from a policy and philosophy concern.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

You both offer cogent thoughts about the liability aspect for ADAS L5 where a driver has zero input. I think there are additional concerns that will complicate this situation further. Based on manufacturer programming decisions, such as the one hinted at by MB at that time, will some vehicles be known as "driver biased" vs. "pedestrian biased" as some consumers would be horrified to think their car will target another person to possibly save themselves....or vice versa? Will this be a selectable feature a driver can change as desired? Will it need to trigger an external warning signal..."I will intentionally hit you to save me?". Will all vehicles become "driver biased" for market competitive reasons and with what consequences? I asked a VP at a supplier company which will remained unnamed about this issue during an industry seminar and she refused to discuss it.

We are not only not ready technologically and legally, but we have no idea how to become ready from a policy and philosophy concern.

Yes, we aren't there for a variety of reasons.

I too have had these discussions with people in the industry; mostly hardware and software people. I have talked to some AI policy people though.

it's a complex issue.
I mean for the most part, drives are save me first anyway. we typically make the decision on where to point the car based on an instantaneous calculation we have made on what we think will keep us alive.

We are taught to run over an animal to prevent a more serious accident.

A lot of the programming and AI will focus on looking ahead and predictive human behavior. Thinks like, based on the position of the person at the curb what is the probability of them stepping in front? Based on that probability, taking a precautionary route or action.

There are a couple of companies selling trained models based on human behavior. They have people looking at body language and positioning a.nd a real person is deciding what they think the behavior will be and why and deciding what they would do in the car. This so the software in the car can calculate the probability of the person stepping in front of the car.

I see autonomous driving on the highway as a tractable problem as long as the lane marking is decent and the Lanes are wide enough. City driving is a nightmare and coming up with a predictive AI model is going to take a long time.

I ride a motorcycle and city driving scares the crap out of me; even after doing it for 4 decades.

Oh and for my mandatory i4 content.
There is a wiki page on the i4 and it claims some 40 driver assist features if you add all the options. Definitely L2 ADAS.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

...
I mean for the most part, drives are save me first anyway. we typically make the decision on where to point the car based on an instantaneous calculation we have made on what we think will keep us alive. We are taught to run over an animal to prevent a more serious accident.
...

This is interesting, although I'm not sure this is true. We seem to instinctually react to avoid an impact (data pending?). From experience and also seeing some people in simulators, I'm not even sure this reaction is mediated cortically and not lower, perhaps as part of the "fear" response to avoid an immediate impact. Having done that, if time even exists, repeat for the next obstacle. Swerve to avoid first impact (person), then again or brake to avoid tree? I think this reflexive response pattern is supported by having to be trained to maintain aim at the deer (believing it will move by impact time), as we otherwise would react naturally by turning. Will we then, as a society, accept an ADAS vehicle that hits the mom and baby carriage when the only other alternative is a potentially fatal impact with a bridge abutment?

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Oh and for my mandatory i4 content.
There is a wiki page on the i4 and it claims some 40 driver assist features if you add all the options. Definitely L2 ADAS.

The descriptions seem to list out the driver assist features available in G-series(e.g. G20), so there appears to be no new driver tech added to i4.

"There are more than 40 driver assistance systems available for the i4 as either standard or optional equipment, including some Level 2 automated driving functions such as speed limit assist and route guidance when the optional active cruise control is engaged. Collision warning, pedestrian warning, and lane departure warning are all standard. Cross-traffic warnings, blind-spot detection, and rear-collision prevention are part of the optional driving assistant system. Optional parking assistant will control the i4 when entering or exiting parallel or perpendicular parking spaces, while its back-up assistant offers automatic reversing for up to 50 yards. A Driving Assistance Professional system utilizes three front cameras, one front-facing radar sensor ,and four side-facing radar sensors “to build a detailed picture of the car’s surroundings,” says BMW. That data is used for such functions as active navigation, steering and lane control assistant, lane-keeping assistant, emergency stop assistant, and evasion assistant"

https://greencarjournal.com/electric...d-performance/

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Will we then, as a society, accept an ADAS vehicle that hits the mom and baby carriage when the only other alternative is a potentially fatal impact with a bridge abutment?

This reminds of Casino Royale in which Craig swivels to avoid hitting Eva Green and hence destroying his Aston Martin DBS.

I would think 0% survival chance of mom and baby hit by 3500-5000lb EV sedan@40mph(e.g.), vs. 90+%(e.g.) survival chance of occupants of such 3500-5000lb sedan hitting bridge abutment, may be a factor in AI's algorithm tuning.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

This reminds of Casino Royale in which Craig swivels to avoid hitting Eva Green and hence destroying his Aston Martin DBS.

I would think 0% survival chance of mom and baby hit by 3500-5000lb EV sedan@40mph(e.g.), vs. 90+%(e.g.) survival chance of occupants of such 3500-5000lb sedan hitting bridge abutment, may be a factor in AI's algorithm tuning.

You are right but until there is standardization on the decision making and people get to look behind the curtain to see what decisions get made we aren't there.

There may be a lot of stuff that's proprietary but those decisions that mean death of the occupants or death to the bystanders will need to be open and evaluated.

We are discussing this, which is good but we are having a hard time just convincing people that the hype put out by Musk is just that; hype.

we haven't even started talking about fault tolerance and graceful failure modes. Since at level 2 you hands are supposed to be on the wheel, there isn't an issue. When we start "letting the car drive" we need to make sure we have graceful failure and manual limp home.

The idea of a car with no steering wheel as Musk has talked about eliminates getting home if you have a systematic fault the disables the driving system.

I don't think I'll ever be ready to not have a steering wheel in my own car

There is no real "auto pilot" and there is no real "full self driving".

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

So I couldn't justify the purchase of a new twin turbo car. That's why I went for the i4 M50.

Do check out G20 M340ix, its B58 engine is single twin-scroll turbo, and outputs 382HP/359lb-ft and hits 0-60 4.1 seconds.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Do check out G20 M340ix, its B58 engine is single twin-scroll turbo, and outputs 382HP/359lb-ft and hits 0-60 4.1 seconds.

Sorry, I think you missed the point.
I've been driving a highly tuned 335i. The new cars don't offer much in the way of performance. just new tech. I can't justify purchasing a petrol car that doesn't really do anything different.

If BMW had not announced the i4 M50 I would have looked at the now entry Porsche Taycan for $80K or the entry Lucid when it becomes available. The i4 was opportunistic because I am a BMW owner for 30+ years. Before the announcement was over BMW had my $1500. I figured I could always get a refund. I don't want one. I can't wait to order and get my car.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Sorry, I think you missed the point.
I've been driving a highly tuned 335i. The new cars don't offer much in the way of performance. just new tech. I can't justify purchasing a petrol car that doesn't really do anything different.

If BMW had not announced the i4 M50 I would have looked at the now entry Porsche Taycan for $80K or the entry Lucid when it becomes available. The i4 was opportunistic because I am a BMW owner for 30+ years. Before the announcement was over BMW had my $1500. I figured I could always get a refund. I don't want one. I can't wait to order and get my car.

Yeah it is fair to move on to a well-built driver EV for something new.

Taycan and Lucid and now i4 are all pretty nice. I will probably pick either Taycan or i4 for their Porsche/BMW DNAs.

My 330i is likely my last ICE, I do wonder if BMW's dedicated EV platform coming in 2025 will use CFRP, and if solid state battery will be available by then.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Yeah it is fair to move on to a well-built driver EV for something new.

Taycan and Lucid and now i4 are all pretty nice. I will probably pick either Taycan or i4 for their Porsche/BMW DNAs.

My 330i is likely my last ICE, I do wonder if BMW's dedicated EV platform coming in 2025 will use CFRP, and if solid state battery will be available by then.

Yeah, after leasing a Fiat 500e, Chevy Bolt, then buying a Chevy Bolt, I figured my next daily driver would be EV.

I saw the i4 whenever they did that unveil a year or two ago and decided on the i4 whenever it became available.

when they announced pre-orders and the M50 version I was putting down my $1500. I was so fast I'm first in line at my dealer.

Porsche just announced an entry level Taycan for $80k-ish.

Is the TM3 cheaper? When fully loaded only by a hair when you factor in the $7500 credit that BMW gets.

Is the TM3 performance model faster? The numbers on paper don't say so, real life may differ. But it's close enough that a blink will have you lose a drag race

Is the TM3 better handling? Not when compared to a 330i M-Sport and I suspect the i4 M50 will be at least that good.

Interior? M seats and leather. For me that's a win. I'm coming of a 335i with sports seats.

I'm who BMW made the i4 M50 for.
Someone that has owned M cars and a tuned N54.
Someone that wants electric but also wants the car to have the soul of a BMW.

I'm sure the next gen 3/4 will shift to the Carbon Core to reduce weight. Until then, I don't really care.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Is the TM3 cheaper? When fully loaded only by a hair when you factor in the $7500 credit that BMW gets.

Is the TM3 performance model faster? The numbers on paper don't say so, real life may differ. But it's close enough that a blink will have you lose a drag race

Is the TM3 better handling? Not when compared to a 330i M-Sport and I suspect the i4 M50 will be at least that good.

Interior? M seats and leather. For me that's a win. I'm coming of a 335i with sports seats.

I'm who BMW made the i4 M50 for.
Someone that has owned M cars and a tuned N54.
Someone that wants electric but also wants the car to have the soul of a BMW.

I'm sure the next gen 3/4 will shift to the Carbon Core to reduce weight. Until then, I don't really care.

Tesla is not known to have great suspension, so my bet is that i4 will leave TM3 in rearview mirror 5+ car lengths at cloverleafs.

TM3 performance in straight line is not that stable at high speed, whenever TM3 guns around me I move out of the way, I really do not want to get involved in a high-speed Tesla crash that results in battery burning for a day.

The issue with TM3 performance, there is not much hardware enhancement going from regular to performance, while from non-M to M, the chassis gets lots of extra $$$ reinforcement that materially morph the car from sports sedan to track ready.

BMW being a German marque knows when to deploy its tech expertise.

[XtBimmer]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Someone that wants electric but also wants the car to have the soul of a BMW.

That's my exact thoughts.
I currently have a Kona EV and it's handling sux but I do like the electric part. Lol

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by XtBimmer

That's my exact thoughts.
I currently have a Kona EV and it's handling sux but I do like the electric part. Lol

A few friends who moved from BMW to Tesla(M3P, S) quietly place orders for i4.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

A few friends who moved from BMW to Tesla(M3P, S) quietly place orders for i4.

One of my friends is a serious car guy. He has had Porsches, BMW and at least one F. He bought a TM3 and absolutely hates it. He ordered a Taycan.

I just want BMW to hurry up and take my money.