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      09-05-2015, 11:03 PM   #441
tony20009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Then shouldn't you focus on laws that only effect the segment of society that does concern you.
Everything I'd proposed and discussed affects the segment of society that concerns me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
[W]hy does the government find me qualified and otherwise trustworthy to carry around as many pistols and ammo as i can conceal, but still doesn't trust me with a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16"?

Answer that for the million dollar prize.
I don't know. Does the government know something about you that the rest of us don't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
So you can shrug off 9,000,000 victims of violent crimes because it pails in comparison to 310,000,000+ total population. Why then is the comparatively minuscule gun homicide figure a problem?
I didn't say anything about shrugging them off. I wrote, "Nine million is a big number. I would consider it relevant to the topic under consideration if the population of U.S. were considerably lower than 310M+."

Now perhaps it's escaped your notice, but the TV crew that was killed was killed with a gun. They were not and cannot be considered among the 9M people who are victims of non-gun-related violence. If the context were violent crime in general, I wouldn't focus entirely on gun-related violence and its victims.

Why are you and other anti-gun regulation advocates so glib about gun-related crime? Why are you disinterested about dealing trying to prevent people from dying in connection with the one form of crime that has been shown to have a positive correlation between guns and killing?

Did you not see the following statements in the post to which you replied?
Quote:
  • I'm focused only on gun violence (homicide in particular) on two bases:
    • Logical
      • it's the form of violence that is causally linked to guns, and
      • other than gun violence, there's not much to be concerned about as it pertains to guns and their uses.
    • Ethical/Moral
      I'm concerned with gun violence also because it's a form of violence that can reasonably be expected to result in people dying. I focus on gun violence because it's the form of violence than can be controlled by controlling guns, and because I believe that a living person's life is more important than whether I am allowed to have a gun, and because I believe that too many people die from gun-related violence.
It's interesting that you asked that question of me even though the answer to it is found immediately following the passage you quoted to ask the question. It makes sense to me that you'd have that question at that point in reading my remarks. It doesn't make sense that you'd go ahead and ask it anyway seeing as it was answered immediately after the statements that would naturally give rise to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
That's not necessarily true. Procuring an automatic weapon through legal means is incredibly difficult and VERY expensive. On the black market, it's still difficult and expensive, but relatively easy and cheap compared to obtaining it legally. And infinitely faster as well.
It's "not necessarily true" and "relatively easy" based on what evidence? And relative to what? "Not available" via legal means? Are you really reduced to that extreme level of comparison? LOL (Surely I can't be the only one who sees the rank mention of automatic guns in this context as laughable?)

Can you please provide something empirical that suggests that the greater difficulty and expense associated with obtaining automatic weapons is not even at least circumstantially related to their very infrequently being used to commit gun related crimes?

The information I've seen (PDF page 9 here: http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/ag..._Report_09.pdf), even if just circumstantially, suggests that it's plausible that automatic weapons' (including machine pistols) being very hard to come by may have to do with why they aren't often used by criminals. Other information I've read supports the plausibility of that premise.
Given the clear benefits of automatically firing guns, I would think that criminals, especially the highly organized ones, would burglarize automatic weapons manufacturers in order to get them, that is if the "criminals steal guns" idea is "on point." I suspect there must be some such robberies, but they don't seem to make the news all that much. Not one such story could I find when Googling Fox News' website for "gun factory robbed Fox News." (The Chicago Tribune carried a story about the theft of guns from a train.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
So what your saying is, that if the attacker's goal is to kill me, it's likely they will accomplish their goal. Therefor, i need to use the minimum amount of force to stop what you say is likely for them to accomplish. Am i understanding this correctly?
No, that's how you've chosen to paraphrase and misrepresent while ignoring FenixMike's question to which the statements are a reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
So what happens when someone has cornered me into a fight which can not be avoided and that person starts winning the fight but doesn't seem to be letting up. Even when we stop fighting and clearly are having a difficult time defending ourselves from continued attack. Should we ask them politely to stop? If you're getting your ass beat by a criminal, how do we non-criminals have any control over when the criminal stops beating our ass? Remember feet & fist kill nearly as many people as guns.
Get real. In the scenario you described, just how plausible is it that you'd be drawing a gun at that point where "you're getting your ass beat?" On the other hand, if the criminal lets up and you are granted a moment to draw a gun, how necessary is it to do so? The person had let up and you are no longer under attack. Are you going to kill him just because you are pissed off? Seems to me, given the hypothetical scenario you describe, the time to have used your gun has passed once you are getting beat. Those other defensive tactics of which I've been writing seem like they would be more useful to you than a gun in a hand-to-hand (or foot) combat situation such as the one you've outlined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
You don't need to buy a CNC machine to get parts made from one. The people who did make the capitol investment want to turn a profit and often will make parts for individuals. All you need to do is show up with the raw materials and a flash drive with the proper machining code on it. How difficult do you think it will be to down load machining code from the deep dark corners of the internet that will instruct a CNC machine to mill out a receiver for a rifle, or a frame for a pistol? My guess is with all the pirating that goes on today, not that difficult.
Why guess? Why not just point us to a website that contains such code? You and FenixMike each have asserted that the requisite programs are readily available, yet neither of you have shown that to be so. Seems that if it were so readily available, pointing us to a few of them would be a convincing way to make the point, especially seeing as your point about ease of obtainability rests on these CNC programs being so easy to get and in turn submit to a metal fabricator.

I'm not saying you two are wrong. I'm bidding you show us some programs, point us to some makers who will take the contract from an individual, point us to some evidence indicating their viability, give us an accurate indication of what they cost to obtain.

FWIW, I know that one can 3D print a functioning gun from plastic. I don't know how viable plastic is as a gun material, nor do I know how powerful the gun is, although I know it fired, "over the course of an evening," (? -- why does it take an evening to fire nine rounds?) nine .38 cal. rounds. The owner of the gun wasn't willing to hold it in his hand and fire it. (I suppose the owner has his own doubts about how safe such a thing is.)


Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygree...e-shots-video/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Ghost gun:
A gun is the serialized portion of the firearm. For an AR15 it's the lower receiver. For a pistol it's the frame, etc... If you can buy that manufactured part, mate it to an upper receiver or pistol slide so that it will fire a projectile, that part is a gun and it's sale is regulated as such.

If that part can NOT be mated to an upper recover without additional machining, it is NOT regulated as a gun and can be sold as raw materials or parts. Then, i simply need to rent a drill press or buy one for $150 to drill out the last 4 holes. Then it can be mated to an upper receiver or pistol slide. Since it's not serialized, there is no record of that gun's sale, because by law, no gun was sold.
Thanks for the explanation of what a "ghost gun" is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Look at the industry those purchases support. It's huge.
I'm willing to believe that what I think is implausible is in fact quite plausible or even just not so, provided you can put forth some scholarly, empirical information that demonstrates that I should.

I was asking questions in that paragraph. They weren't entirely rhetorical. I would genuinely like to understand what FenixMike's comment about folks having guns/pistols "holding them longer" has to do with ongoing and future gun-related crimes, particularly since there is surely an existing black market for guns.

It seems to me that if the folks who own the 300M guns FenixMike indicates are owned now were to hold on to them rather than sell them, the future crimes that occur using a gun would have to be committed by those existing owners or by folks who, in a highly regulated environment like that of automatic weapons, are among the few folks who could get their hands on one, much like the few folks who can get their hands on automatic weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Of course the average criminal isn't going to manufacture guns. No one thinks that. But a drug cartel recognizing an opportunity while having the money, means and motivation may do just that. Especially when all these gun manufactures sell of their tools when they close their doors. The average criminal will be buying guns from the illegal black market that the ban on guns will likely create.
You realize that assertion is highly questionable given your earlier observations re: automatic firearms and the empirical data I provided showing their extremely infrequent appearance/use in gun-related crimes. The economic theory you applied makes sense aside from it's failing to consider the impact of intensive regulation such as that which affects the manufacture and trade in automatic firearms.

All the best.
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Cheers,
Tony

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      09-06-2015, 11:45 AM   #442
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When I saw this for some reason I thought of Tony!


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      09-06-2015, 12:00 PM   #443
tony20009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
When I saw this for some reason I thought of Tony!


LOL

Just for the record, my writing messages on here looks more like this:





The first photo most aptly portrays what the process looks like. The second is a better depiction of what I look like. I can type, but mostly I use speech recognition software to write.

All the best.
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Tony

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      09-07-2015, 02:22 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I don't know. Does the government know something about you that the rest of us don't?
Feeling cheeky today? You know what i mean. If i'm deemed able to conceal a hand gun and multiple 15 round magazines, why can't i own a SBR (short barrel rifle) when the spirit of the initial law banning the SBR is because it's more easily concealed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I didn't say anything about shrugging them off. I wrote, "Nine million is a big number. I would consider it relevant to the topic under consideration if the population of U.S. were considerably lower than 310M+."

Now perhaps it's escaped your notice, but the TV crew that was killed was killed with a gun. They were not and cannot be considered among the 9M people who are victims of non-gun-related violence. If the context were violent crime in general, I wouldn't focus entirely on gun-related violence and its victims.

Why are you and other anti-gun regulation advocates so glib about gun-related crime? Why are you disinterested about dealing trying to prevent people from dying in connection with the one form of crime that has been shown to have a positive correlation between guns and killing?
I thought we were talking about the use of self defense against violent crimes. My apologies if i got things mixed up. I was thinking that due to the 310m+ population, you weren't concerned about 3% of citizens who will fall victim to violent crimes. If you weren't concerned about the assaults, rapes, and other violent crimes due to its relationship to the nation's population, I couldn't see why you'd be concerned about the far less significant number (relative to US population) of gun homicides in the US.

Why do i seem glib?? Why aren't threads made when the multiple people die every day due to drug or gang interaction? I'm not the one ignoring the number one and two cause of gun homicides in the US. I fully recognize the loss of life, and by that i don't simply mean the children of New Town or TV station employees. As tragic as those incidents are, when we're talking death toll, those tragedies hardly create a recognizable percentage to even use in a statistic. The decimal is so far to the left, most people can't comprehend the meaning of it. Yet the media and politicians will stir up emotions of most people ignorant of the root cause of gun violence in America and which Americans it really affects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
It's "not necessarily true" and "relatively easy" based on what evidence? And relative to what? "Not available" via legal means? Are you really reduced to that extreme level of comparison? LOL (Surely I can't be the only one who sees the rank mention of automatic guns in this context as laughable?)

Can you please provide something empirical that suggests that the greater difficulty and expense associated with obtaining automatic weapons is not even at least circumstantially related to their very infrequently being used to commit gun related crimes?
Have you ever purchased a firearm? Have you ever submitted the proper forms to the ATF in order to purchase a NFA regulated firearm or item? My guess is no. Anyone who can legally own a firearm can legally own a machine gun (automatic firearm) or any other NFA regulated item. (SBR or Suppressor) All it takes is a form to be submitted and "tax stamp" submission along with that form. Then you wait anywhere form 3 to 14 months for the ATF to approve the form. On top of that, because you can only legally buy/sell pre-ban registered machine guns, the purchase of one will likely be expensive. So much so, it's prohibitive for most gun owners. There are some relatively inexpensive machine guns, typically machine pistols which are again, relatively, available in large numbers when compared to more popular rifles. But then since the gun is the lower receiver, you can easily replace the upper receiver and bolt carrier group with a longer barreled version and even change the caliber of the weapon in the process.

But one point your missing due to your firearm ignorance is the advent of a drop in auto-sear or sear pack which can cost next to nothing (when home made) and can be place into a semi-automatic firearm in a matter of minutes making that firearm fully automatic. Then it can be removed in a matter of minutes making that firearm return to it's previous state of being semi-automatic. These auto-sears and sear packs are also on the machine-gun ban list so law abiding citizens can only buy pre-ban registered auto sears. I'll let you google the difference between them, but this piece of metal along with a new fire selector can turn an AR-15 into a full auto M16/M4. This piece of metal is easily fabricated on the cheap. And few machinist will have any clue as to what it is and just how illegal it is to make it for someone.

So while it will cost me a tax stamp, registration with the ATF and a very long wait to legally own a machine gun (or any NFA regulated item) a criminal can side step those laws and acquire one for much cheaper and faster. Either by black market purchase or having a machinist fabricate an innocuous looking auto-sear for them. That fact has nothing to do with the likelihood or determined statistical usage of a machine gun during a crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Given the clear benefits of automatically firing guns, I would think that criminals, especially the highly organized ones, would burglarize automatic weapons manufacturers in order to get them, that is if the "criminals steal guns" idea is "on point." I suspect there must be some such robberies, but they don't seem to make the news all that much. Not one such story could I find when Googling Fox News' website for "gun factory robbed Fox News." (The Chicago Tribune carried a story about the theft of guns from a train.)
I think it's possible that your lack of firearm experience may be letting you down. There are few benefits of machine guns when committing a crime. A drive by shooting or mass shooting are just about the only times one may be beneficial. They are difficult to control, shooters who don't train regularly with them often miss their targets due to muzzle clime caused by the high rate of fire. And they run out of bullets fast. It's most likely an untrained person utilizing a machine gun will miss their target with the majority of their bullets and run out of those bullets (have to reload a magazine) generally in less than 2 seconds. Even the military, despite all the movies, don't issue full auto weapons to the infantry for those same reasons. The automatic weapon is for suppressive fire in tactical situations. In civilian legal use situations, the automatic weapon is for making watermelon soup out of watermelons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Get real. In the scenario you described, just how plausible is it that you'd be drawing a gun at that point where "you're getting your ass beat?" On the other hand, if the criminal lets up and you are granted a moment to draw a gun, how necessary is it to do so? The person had let up and you are no longer under attack. Are you going to kill him just because you are pissed off? Seems to me, given the hypothetical scenario you describe, the time to have used your gun has passed once you are getting beat. Those other defensive tactics of which I've been writing seem like they would be more useful to you than a gun in a hand-to-hand (or foot) combat situation such as the one you've outlined.
Get real?

Is this real enough for you?



Cop tries to detain someone through non-lethal means for fitting the description of someone who just assaulted a cab driver. Guy resists arrest, guy also has 40 to 60 pounds on the cop, is drunk and seems to be in a fighting mood. After getting the upper hand over the cop he starts whaling on the cops face. Cop, recognizing his inability to adequately defend himself, draws his gun and fires.

Your bolded statement pretty much proves my point. In the same way that a police officer would draw his firearm at the onset of violent behavior. Assuming the officer didn't know if this person was armed or not. However, if the officer was certain the violent person was unarmed AND had LTL means on his person, he would likely move to that option. But i'm not psychic and I don't have the belt space to carry a pistol, pepper spray, taser, baton, spare gun mags, and spare taser barbs, etc... On top of that, i don't have the physical capacity to carry a cop around with me all the time.

That's why i'll depend on my brain and steer clear of any violent situation when it's at all possible. I will literally turn tail while being provoked, insulted, disrespected, etc... to get the hell out of dodge if it appears i'm possibly going to be dragged into a physical altercation. The only time that would change is if my wife or other family members were being threatened as well. While we're in hypotheticals, assuming i knew the offenders weren't armed (which you can never tell) i would not draw unless i truly felt our lives were in danger. And not that i owe you any justification, if i didn't think i couldn't control my anger i wouldn't carry a gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Why guess? Why not just point us to a website that contains such code? You and FenixMike each have asserted that the requisite programs are readily available, yet neither of you have shown that to be so. Seems that if it were so readily available, pointing us to a few of them would be a convincing way to make the point, especially seeing as your point about ease of obtainability rests on these CNC programs being so easy to get and in turn submit to a metal fabricator.

I'm not saying you two are wrong. I'm bidding you show us some programs, point us to some makers who will take the contract from an individual, point us to some evidence indicating their viability, give us an accurate indication of what they cost to obtain.
So you want empirical evidence of CAD data files and fabrication services for which no black market currently exists? Seems like a strange request from a research expert. But here is a link to the top google result for "lower receiver CAD file". https://grabcad.com/library/ar15-low...works-native-1

You can take it from there as i have no need to procure the services of someone with a CNC machine. Though, i do know someone who has produced such items for his personal collection with his personal CNC machine. I doubt he'd have a problem doing the same for me. But like i said, there is no current need as these firearms are readily availably for purchase by those who are qualified and live in a free state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
FWIW, I know that one can 3D print a functioning gun from plastic. I don't know how viable plastic is as a gun material, nor do I know how powerful the gun is, although I know it fired, "over the course of an evening," (? -- why does it take an evening to fire nine rounds?) nine .38 cal. rounds. The owner of the gun wasn't willing to hold it in his hand and fire it. (I suppose the owner has his own doubts about how safe such a thing is.)
There is a lot of force packed in that little .38 cal shell casing. Especially when encased in a breach making for only one place for the bullet and gasses to escape. I think the owner was prudent in making a jig to fire the prototype from. Key word, prototype.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I'm willing to believe that what I think is implausible is in fact quite plausible or even just not so, provided you can put forth some scholarly, empirical information that demonstrates that I should.
My only point was that accessories for guns are flying off the shelves, new companies are being born creating competition which is further pushing innovation while driving costs down. For items that are popular upgrades, you often have to back order those items in order to procure them. It's a large industry which continues to expand from the old days of a single model pistil and standard ammunition. Most gun models these days come in different trim models much like cars. Threaded barrel, de-cocker, external safety, night sights, skeletonized hammer, skeletonized slide and or trigger, lighter trigger groups, extended magazines, lighter magazines, IWB holsters, OWB holsters, retention holsters, leather work holsters, custom stippling for composite grips, custom bolt on grips, WM lights and lasers, JHP ammo, FMJ ammo, boat tail bullets, nosler bullets, steal case, aluminum case, brass case, reloads, different grain weight bullets, etc... etc... i've barely scratched the surface of the options available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
It seems to me that if the folks who own the 300M guns FenixMike indicates are owned now were to hold on to them rather than sell them, the future crimes that occur using a gun would have to be committed by those existing owners or by folks who, in a highly regulated environment like that of automatic weapons, are among the few folks who could get their hands on one, much like the few folks who can get their hands on automatic weapons.

You realize that assertion is highly questionable given your earlier observations re: automatic firearms and the empirical data I provided showing their extremely infrequent appearance/use in gun-related crimes. The economic theory you applied makes sense aside from it's failing to consider the impact of intensive regulation such as that which affects the manufacture and trade in automatic firearms.
Bold: On the surface, this seems plausible. But then to the italic section, why is it highly questionable? What happened during prohibition of alcohol? Did not thousands of people start making their own alcohol for purposes of distribution? Did not hundreds of thousands create that market? Why is it highly questionable to presume a huge black market for illegal firearms will explode upon the banning of firearms?


And since you like reading as much as writing, here is an interesting article about gun control, gun violence, potential restrictions, etc... i've bolded some of the concepts all of us anti-regulation people are always on about.

Quote:
Despite the rhetoric from both sides over the need for stricter gun control regulations – and the fear instilled by a rash of random shootings in public places nationwide – statistics show relatively few people will fall victim to violent, firearm-related crimes committed by strangers, according to a new study by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics.

That study shows strangers committed about 38 percent of non-fatal, violent crimes including rape, robbery and assault in 2010, the most recent data available. Of that amount, only an average of 10 percent used a firearm while committing the crime. In other words, fewer than four out of every 100 non-fatal, violent crimes were committed by a stranger.

Additionally, only about one-fourth of homicides are committed by strangers. The overwhelming percentage of homicides – and of all violent crimes, for that matter – is committed by a friend, relative or other acquaintance.

Those statistics, and that federal study, apparently have gotten lost amid the debate that’s followed the deadly school shooting in Newtown, Conn.

The study, released three days before the Dec. 14 tragedy, has not been mentioned in any other newspaper, according to a Nexis database search, and only a handful of blogs mentioned the report.

Instead, the debate has focused on assault weapons – rarely used in violent crimes, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation – and background checks at gun shows, such as the one scheduled Feb. 9-10 at the Myrtle Beach Convention Center. That show, one of the center’s most popular, is expected to draw about 4,000 people over two days.

Ignoring statistics and focusing on emotion are typical tactics used by gun-control advocates, according to National Rife Association spokeswoman Jacqueline Ott.

“The debate is at an emotional high right now, and it’s not rooted in any crime statistics,” Otto told The Sun News. “They [gun control advocates] are over-hyping the risks and preying on fear, all in the argument that they are trying to protect children.”

Ed Kelleher, president of gun rights advocacy group Grass Roots South Carolina in Lexington, said the gun control arguments are irrational.

“The studies are there, but those who advocate gun control ignore the facts so they can keep pushing their own agenda,” he said.

Others, including U.S. Attorney William Nettles, say South Carolina has a definite gun problem – unregulated private sales and no registration process. Nettles – who said he is not anti-gun, adding that his father owned firearms – said S.C. legislators “don’t have the political will to track guns,” leaving federal prosecutors as the de facto enforcement agency when gun laws are violated. Among the biggest problem, he said, is the illegal transport of guns out of South Carolina for sale in other states and countries.

Those who advocate more restrictive gun laws say the evidence is clear that tighter restrictions – such as prohibiting gun sales to substance abusers, the mentally ill and perpetrators of domestic violence and limiting ammunition capacity – can reduce firearm violence.

“Mass shootings bring public attention to the exceptionally high rate of gun violence in the U.S., but policy discussions rarely focus on preventing the daily gun violence that results in an average of 30 lives lost every day,” Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, said in a news release. Webster was the author of an Oct. 26 study that showed overhauled gun laws could save lives.

“It is important to note that making these changes to our gun laws would not disarm law-abiding adults,” he said.

Erika Harrell, who wrote the Bureau of Justice Statistics study titled “Violent Victimization Committed by Strangers – 1983-2010,” said she cannot comment on government policy decisions or why the study might have been ignored by the media.


The gun show loophole

The national gun control debate has put a spotlight on the estimated 5,000 gun shows held each year, where firearms often are sold without the requirement of background checks. South Carolina is among 33 states that do not restrict the private, intrastate sale of firearms at gun shows, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence in San Francisco.

One of this area’s most popular shows – the C&E Gun Show – will be held starting later this week at the convention center. Steven Elliott, the show’s sponsor, did not respond to requests for comments and his company website specifically bans media interviews at his gun shows. Elliott has been holding shows that the convention center for 20 years and the event has proven so popular that he now holds them twice a year.

“It has always been well attended,” Paul Edwards, the convention center’s general manager, said of the gun show. Edwards said he expects about 4,000 people to attend the two-day event, which is being held in a 34,000-square-foot exhibit space. That attendance figure ranks slightly higher than a craft show that would be held in the same space, Edwards said.

Attendance at the local gun show spiked after President Barack Obama first was elected in 2008, Edwards said, “for fear of changes in the gun laws,” adding that the current debate over tighter gun laws could boost attendance again this year.

“We had a pre-convention conference call to go over a few things and we discussed making sure that we don’t exceed the maximum capacity for the space – visually checking that if we get too many people in there at one time, we need to restrict entrance until some people leave,” Edwards said. “We haven’t had to restrict attendance like that in the past. Other than that, there have been no law changes or any other changes to the show.”

Nettles, the lead federal prosecutor in South Carolina, said he isn’t opposed to gun shows and understands that people want to show off their collections and interact with others who share the same interests. But he can’t understand why state legislators won’t require background checks and registration of private gun sales.

“More guns go out of South Carolina than come in to the state,” Nettles said. “People will come here from all over the East Coast to buy guns at a gun show or flea market, then get back in their car and sell them in another state. Those guns can’t be traced.”

One flea market in Summerville had such a reputation for illegal gun transfers, Nettles said, that a group of South Americans he prosecuted for transporting illegal weapons called it “the gun farm.”

“I am not anti-gun,” Nettles said. “We just need to make sure guns don’t fall into the wrong hands.”


Stranger initiated violence rare

Statistics indicate that many of the illegal gun sales are to people who are already involved in some other type of criminal behavior, particularly drug trafficking and gang activity. Relatively few of them are used in random, violent crimes against strangers. The number of stranger-committed non-fatal, violent crimes has been declining for nearly two decades, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics study.

In 2010, the most recent data available, strangers committed 1.8 million non-fatal, violent crimes nationwide – a 77 percent drop from the 7.9 million committed in 1993, the earliest data available. That mirrors an overall drop in firearm-related crime nationwide during that period – from about 6 victims per 1,000 residents to 1.4 victims per 1,000 residents.

The largest percentage of stranger-committed homicides – 19.3 percent – occur during robberies, according to the federal study. Myrtle Beach police Capt. David Knipes said many of those robberies are committed for drug-related purposes, “either to get money to purchase illegal narcotics or drug ripoffs.”

Another 25 percent of homicides take place when the stranger and victim are arguing. And about 19 percent of homicides committed by strangers take place when the victim is taking part in some other illegal activity, ranging from gang killings and drug crimes to alcohol- or drug-fueled brawls. The circumstances surrounding the remaining homicides, about 34 percent, are uncategorized or unknown.

“Historically, the numbers would show that a relatively small amount of individuals are committing more than their share of gun-related crimes,” Knipes said. “A lot of those cases are intermingled with drug offenses or gang activity where they are carrying some type of firearm.”

The link in Horry County between guns and drug-related crimes is evident in the number of prosecutions for unlawful possession of a firearm in federal court. Last year, 20 people were charged with unlawful possession of a firearm because they had prior felony convictions. Of that number, 13 also were charged with felony drug offenses related to the gun charges. Another person had just completed a prison sentence for cocaine possession when he was charged with the gun crime.

Concealed weapons, commons sense

Firearm-related homicides in Horry County generally follow the national patterns.

There were 16 homicides in Horry County during 2011, according to the most recent FBI data. Nine of those homicides involved firearms, with at least four of those committed during arguments among friends, relatives or acquaintances. Two others involved men who were shot outside their apartments, apparently by someone they knew. Three of the gun-related homicides were the result of robberies.


Horry County police Sgt. Robert Kegler said “most firearm crimes do not appear to be random act,” but he warned that “there is always the possibility of a random person becoming the victim of a gun crime,” citing some armed robberies and home invasions as examples.

Kegler said the best policy is to be prepared even for what might seem to be an unlikely crime scenario.

“The Horry County Police Department never discounts the fact that a mass shooting incident could happen here in our area,” he said. “As a result, we continuously train to prepare for the potential of an active shooter.”

For many South Carolina residents, preparation for the unexpected means carrying a handgun for defense. There are 187,327 concealed weapon permits statewide, according to the S.C. Law Enforcement Division. That is a 26 percent increase over the number of active permits a year ago and amounts to more than 1 out of every 20 residents aged 21 and older in the state. A breakdown of the number of concealed weapon permits issued in Horry County was not available.

Regardless of one’s stance on the gun issue, Knipes said common sense is the best defense – even in a place where random, stranger-committed crimes is rare.

“We’re certainly not Mayberry, but we’re not Chicago, either,” Knipes said, adding that many crimes in Myrtle Beach are committed against tourists who let their guard down while on vacation. They are accosted while walking the beach late at night or wandering – often drunk – along the back streets near the hotel district. “A lot of these numbers [locally] could be brought down if people would just be more aware of their surroundings and use better sense.”

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/crim...#storylink=cpy
The major point of posting that article were for the bits about the majority of gun violence revolving around drug trafficking and gang affiliation as well as the police chief acknowledging that the best thing for citizens to do is be prepared should that rare event befall them and that being more aware of your soundings can lower the probity of being a victim. All things the anti-regulation crowd harp about regularly when the emotional arguments for banning and controlling guns come out. I didn't go looking for it to support my views, i just happen to come across it as a google result when searching for how many people will fall victim to violent crimes.

I understand your reason for being so thorough in your post and signing off with "All the best". I may not be as thorough but want you to know that i'm of equally good intentions with *most* of my posts. So i'll sign off with....

Kind regards.
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Last edited by Mr Tonka; 09-10-2015 at 12:41 PM..
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      09-08-2015, 10:17 AM   #445
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During the Virginia Tech/OSU game last night, ESPN mentioned that both teams wore ribbons on their helmets honoring the two victims who were shot.

ESPN did something the rest of the media should've done, mention the names of the victims and briefly refer to the shooter, calling him only a "coward".

Virginia Tech then proceeded to implode on national television once Brewer broke his collar bone.

Between the Hokies and the Redskins I don't even know why I subject myself to football.
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