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      08-18-2014, 12:55 AM   #1
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Ford Bail-Out

I saw it in person. Not a bad car. If Ford keeps this type of quality up, perhaps people will start liking America more and our economy won't be so bad. Let's see how reliable it is by next spring.

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      08-18-2014, 08:39 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by GlobalScientist View Post
I saw it in person. Not a bad car. If Ford keeps this type of quality up, perhaps people will start liking America more and our economy won't be so bad. Let's see how reliable it is by next spring.

You think the US economy is experiencing slow growth because Ford makes lesser quality cars? How does that work?

Germany makes very refined cars and their economic growth was in the red this past quarter.
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      08-18-2014, 09:38 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
You think the US economy is experiencing slow growth because Ford makes lesser quality cars? How does that work?

Germany makes very refined cars and their economic growth was in the red this past quarter.
Of course I think that. Google "Ford Bailout".

Ford in the past was a good example of bad company culture malaise that typified many American companies. That said, there has been a significant turn around, but we are in a complex global economy. Now it's about other people playing fair.

Good thoughts of yours. As far as the Mustang, I like the idea that people are talking more about American cars. Hope the consumers take that to their wallet.
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      08-18-2014, 10:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobalScientist View Post


Of course I think that. Google "Ford Bailout".

Ford in the past was a good example of bad company culture malaise that typified many American companies. That said, there has been a significant turn around, but we are in a complex global economy. Now it's about other people playing fair.

Good thoughts of yours. As far as the Mustang, I like the idea that people are talking more about American cars. Hope the consumers take that to their wallet.
The Ford bailout was a symptom of the economic recession, not a cause. My point to you is that Ford's lack of "quality" cars has little to do with the currently slow growth in the US economy. Just like Germany's plethora of "quality" cars is doing nothing to help its stagnating economic growth.

Also, this "turn-around" for American cars is not recent. It's been happening over the last decade. Go compare the Ford's overseas sales to that of BMW or Mercedes. You want to talk about the luxury/sports sector...sure German brands still have a solid hold on that...but in terms of overall sales, Ford is outpacing many of its European rivals (mostly through its sales of entry-level or economy cars). The mustang is only one car in a lineup of many that Ford offers, and its sale figures, or lack thereof, are not indicative of Ford's profitability.
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      08-18-2014, 10:19 AM   #5
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Your point on the quality is a very debatable point and I agree with your second point.
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      08-31-2014, 10:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobalScientist View Post




Of course I think that. Google "Ford Bailout".

Ford in the past was a good example of bad company culture malaise that typified many American companies. That said, there has been a significant turn around, but we are in a complex global economy. Now it's about other people playing fair.

Good thoughts of yours. As far as the Mustang, I like the idea that people are talking more about American cars. Hope the consumers take that to their wallet.


Ford did not take the bail out... that was GM & Chrysler..
Alan Mulally turned Ford around and gave them a new Corporate Culture. Stressed engineering and set out to make them engine builder's alongside of being a car company.

That is now starting to pay off in every car they make.. as Fields now takes the reigns and works on applying it all to Lincoln.
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      08-31-2014, 10:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post


Ford did not take the bail out... that was GM & Chrysler..
Alan Mulally turned Ford around and gave them a new Corporate Culture. Stressed engineering and set out to make them engine builder's alongside of being a car company.

That is now starting to pay off in every car they make.. as Fields now takes the reigns and works on applying it all to Lincoln.
Holy Crap!! Why are you posting blatantly false information? With everything one google search away there is no excuse.

Ford did actually take loans from the government during the financial crisis (mostly to insure their massive debt at the time).

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/1...44446120081219

And as of 2012, they still owed $5.9 billion to the government.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmul...-surprise-you/

Google is your friend..and very easy to use.

Last edited by Dalko43; 08-31-2014 at 04:19 PM..
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      09-06-2014, 09:35 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Holy Crap!! Why are you posting blatantly false information? With everything one google search away there is no excuse.

Ford did actually take loans from the government during the financial crisis (mostly to insure their massive debt at the time).

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/1...44446120081219

And as of 2012, they still owed $5.9 billion to the government.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmul...-surprise-you/

Google is your friend..and very easy to use.




Sorry... you are incorrect. Ford did not take any bailout money.


Alan Mulally secured $billions in loans, before the Big3 even went to Congress. He was there is support for GM & Chryslers.. as their situation with loan status was better than the other two. In which the other two couldn't secure a loan and had to declare bankruptcy and get bailout money..!

So understand, Ford didn't take the bailout, they acquired a low-interest loan instead, while GM & Chryslers status was trash, & forced into bankruptcy. Thus bailout!
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      09-06-2014, 04:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post




Sorry... you are incorrect. Ford did not take any bailout money.


Alan Mulally secured $billions in loans, before the Big3 even went to Congress. He was there is support for GM & Chryslers.. as their situation with loan status was better than the other two. In which the other two couldn't secure a loan and had to declare bankruptcy and get bailout money..!

So understand, Ford didn't take the bailout, they acquired a low-interest loan instead, while GM & Chryslers status was trash, & forced into bankruptcy. Thus bailout!
Sorry but arguing over semantics doesn't make you correct.

You are choosing a very trivial point to argue over. Ford may not have taken the same "bailout" money that Chrysler and GM took, but they did borrow money from the US government to weather the financial crisis back in 2008. GM and Chrysler also borrowed money from the US government, though it was termed "bailout" money...all 3 companies have had to eventually pay back what was lent to them.

And as of 2012, Ford still owed billions to the US government...so the bottom line is that all 3 companies (Ford, GM, Chrysler) have relied on taxpayer $ at one point or another in the last 5-6 years.
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      09-06-2014, 11:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43
Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post




Sorry... you are incorrect. Ford did not take any bailout money.


Alan Mulally secured $billions in loans, before the Big3 even went to Congress. He was there is support for GM & Chryslers.. as their situation with loan status was better than the other two. In which the other two couldn't secure a loan and had to declare bankruptcy and get bailout money..!

So understand, Ford didn't take the bailout, they acquired a low-interest loan instead, while GM & Chryslers status was trash, & forced into bankruptcy. Thus bailout!
Sorry but arguing over semantics doesn't make you correct.

You are choosing a very trivial point to argue over. Ford may not have taken the same "bailout" money that Chrysler and GM took, but they did borrow money from the US government to weather the financial crisis back in 2008. GM and Chrysler also borrowed money from the US government, though it was termed "bailout" money...all 3 companies have had to eventually pay back what was lent to them.

And as of 2012, Ford still owed billions to the US government...so the bottom line is that all 3 companies (Ford, GM, Chrysler) have relied on taxpayer $ at one point or another in the last 5-6 years.
You are correct!
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      09-08-2014, 10:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Sorry but arguing over semantics doesn't make you correct.

You are choosing a very trivial point to argue over. Ford may not have taken the same "bailout" money that Chrysler and GM took, but they did borrow money from the US government to weather the financial crisis back in 2008. GM and Chrysler also borrowed money from the US government, though it was termed "bailout" money...all 3 companies have had to eventually pay back what was lent to them.

And as of 2012, Ford still owed billions to the US government...so the bottom line is that all 3 companies (Ford, GM, Chrysler) have relied on taxpayer $ at one point or another in the last 5-6 years.


Again... you seem to not understand that Ford did not take bailout money and was not bailed out. Ford did not declare bankruptcy, nor had ANY government Czar control or handle their business.

NONE..!



Ford simply took advantage of low-interest loans that the government was offering US companies at the time. Period!


Taxpayers..?
It was a loan, with interest and a set date. Do you know what a loan is... vs being bailed out and taken over by the government, using government money to conduct business..?
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      09-12-2014, 10:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
[B]
Taxpayers..?
It was a loan, with interest and a set date. Do you know what a loan is... vs being bailed out and taken over by the government, using government money to conduct business..?
It was taxpayer $ loaned to Ford. It was taxpayer $ that was loaned to GM as well (termed bailout money). And just like Ford, GM has had to pay back the money that it was lent, so GM was given a loan as well despite the different terminology used. I'm not arguing that Ford was experiencing the same kind of fiscal disaster that GM and others were, I'm just saying that Ford took money from the government during the financial crisis...there's nothing false about that.

Please troll somewhere else now.
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      09-13-2014, 09:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Holy Crap!! Why are you posting blatantly false information? With everything one google search away there is no excuse.

Ford did actually take loans from the government during the financial crisis (mostly to insure their massive debt at the time).

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/1...44446120081219

And as of 2012, they still owed $5.9 billion to the government.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmul...-surprise-you/

Google is your friend..and very easy to use.
You are using a article from almost 3 years ago. Those funds were not part of the of the The Automotive Industry Financing Program which was part of TARP in which GM and Chrysler received $80 Billion. The loan Ford took out they actually mortgaged the Ford name for this money.

Here some reading..

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/09/for...n-on-bailouts/

As of 2014 Ford has repaid most of the $5.9Bill loan which was from the Dept. of Treasury. Taxpayers haven't lost a dime on Ford. GM and Chrysler applied for this loan but they didn't qualify, Ford did. This is what forced GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy. BTW, Nissan as well as Tesla also received a loan at the same time as Ford.

Bailout money and loans are 2 different things.

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      09-13-2014, 10:00 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
You are using a article from almost 3 years ago. Those funds were not part of the of the The Automotive Industry Financing Program which was part of TARP in which GM and Chrysler received $80 Billion. The loan Ford took out they actually mortgaged the Ford name for this money.

Here some reading..

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/09/for...n-on-bailouts/

As of 2014 Ford has repaid most of the $5.9Bill loan which was from the Dept. of Treasury. Taxpayers haven't lost a dime on Ford. GM and Chrysler applied for this loan but they didn't qualify, Ford did. This is what forced GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy. BTW, Nissan as well as Tesla also received a loan at the same time as Ford.

Bailout money and loans are 2 different things.

Dave
Like I said earlier, we are arguing over semantics. I realize that GM and Chrysler received TARP and Ford didn't. But TARP was a loan as well, though of a different nature, and GM and Chrysler are obligated to pay back all of that money in the same way that Ford had to repay its loan from the government. Taxpayers aren't losing any money on those TARP bailout's.

Ford took money from the US government. GM and Chrysler did as well. One was labeled a loan, and the other was labeled a bailout...both were lent to these companies during the financial crisis, and both have to be repaid in full. Both are loans in every sense of the word. Can we move on now??

Edit: and that article you referenced was quoting Ford spokesmen who were trying to distinguish between "bailout" money sent to GM and Chrysler and "loans" sent to Ford. Ford may not have been at risk of going under like the other 2 US car companies, but they were hurting economically...they didn't get loans simply to promote "more fuel efficient cars." They received loans to ensure their business remained stable during the 2008 financial crisis. Your own article that you cite says as much:

"It’s true that Ford was not “bailed out by our government,” as Chris says. However, the company’s president and CEO testified that his company would suffer if Congress did not pass legislation to provide financial support to the ailing auto industry. He urged Congress to pass the bill."

Read the entire article next time before you post it as a rebuttal...My point is literally proven by the very article you posted.

Last edited by Dalko43; 09-13-2014 at 10:10 PM.. Reason: Edit
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      09-13-2014, 10:12 PM   #15
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It is shocking how many people on this forum can't do basic research and validate info before they post it...like I said earlier:

GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND!!!
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      09-13-2014, 11:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Like I said earlier, we are arguing over semantics. I realize that GM and Chrysler received TARP and Ford didn't. But TARP was a loan as well, though of a different nature, and GM and Chrysler are obligated to pay back all of that money in the same way that Ford had to repay its loan from the government. Taxpayers aren't losing any money on those TARP bailout's.

Ford took money from the US government. GM and Chrysler did as well. One was labeled a loan, and the other was labeled a bailout...both were lent to these companies during the financial crisis, and both have to be repaid in full. Both are loans in every sense of the word. Can we move on now??

Edit: and that article you referenced was quoting Ford spokesmen who were trying to distinguish between "bailout" money sent to GM and Chrysler and "loans" sent to Ford. Ford may not have been at risk of going under like the other 2 US car companies, but they were hurting economically...they didn't get loans simply to promote "more fuel efficient cars." They received loans to ensure their business remained stable during the 2008 financial crisis. Your own article that you cite says as much:

"It’s true that Ford was not “bailed out by our government,” as Chris says. However, the company’s president and CEO testified that his company would suffer if Congress did not pass legislation to provide financial support to the ailing auto industry. He urged Congress to pass the bill."

Read the entire article next time before you post it as a rebuttal...My point is literally proven by the very article you posted.

You are the one who needs to read the entire article..they were for the bailout of GM and Chrysler because it would have hurt the suppliers, hence Ford as well, not to mention any other car maker that builds cars in the US to include BMW, Toyota, Nissan and Honda. In other words if your suppliers go out of business how do you build the cars. The semantics is everything, as one was a loan the other was a bailout. You also didn't address my point that the loan has almost been repaid and Nissan as well as Tesla took this loan as well, not to mention my point that the taxpayer didn't lose a dime with the loan to Ford. You are the one not reading the whole article, or you are just so hell bent on pushing your flawed opinion that you are ignoring it.

Read this excerpt..

Quote:
Ford has used its government loan to retool the Michigan assembly plant in Wayne to make the Ford Focus, Focus Electric and C-Max hybrids. Other investments were made at plants in Dearborn; Livonia; Sterling Heights; Chicago; Louisville, Ky.; Kansas City, Mo.; Cleveland, and Sharonville and Lima, Ohio, Baker said.

Baker also said Ford would have made the investments anyway, but the loans allowed the company to accelerate its retooling plans to get fuel-efficient vehicles on the road "at a time when you couldn't get low-cost financing."

The loans weren't crucial to Ford's survival, and that makes them different in the public eye, said Aaron Bragman of IHS Automotive in Northville.
They used the money for re-tooling not for Fords survival. All it did was help facilitate bringing the product to the consumer in more timely manner. Was Ford suffering yes they were, but they would have weathered the storm.

Quote:
It is shocking how many people on this forum can't do basic research and validate info before they post it...like I said earlier:

GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND!!!
Whats shocking is your total lack of reading comprehension.




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Last edited by Dave07997S; 09-13-2014 at 11:27 PM..
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      09-14-2014, 05:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
You are the one who needs to read the entire article..they were for the bailout of GM and Chrysler because it would have hurt the suppliers...
Again, YOU ARE NOT READING YOUR OWN ARTICLE!!!Ford wasn't just asking for a bailout of the other auto companies, they asked for a loan for themselves to insure their massive debt and serve as a safety net during the 2008 crisis.

That's stated in your article:

Quote:
He [Mullay] also asked Congress to authorize a credit line of up to $9 billion for Ford in case the economy got worse and the company needed it.

Mulally, Dec. 5, 2008: In addition to our plan, we are also here today to request support for the industry. In the near-term, Ford does not require access to a government bridge loan. However, we request a credit line of $9 billion as a critical backstop or safeguard against worsening conditions as we drive transformational change in our company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
You also didn't address my point that the loan has almost been repaid and Nissan as well as Tesla took this loan as well, not to mention my point that the taxpayer didn't lose a dime with the loan to Ford.
You HAVEN'T RESEARCHED WHAT TARP IS AND HOW IT WORKS!!! TARP is a loan as well, and has been repaid in full by GM has been mostly paid off by Chrysler. I acknowledge that Ford has repaid its "non-TARP" loan. And I don't see what this has to do with the original argument in the first place.
GM:
http://www.treasury.gov/press-center...es/jl2222.aspx
Chrysler:
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41940.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Read this excerpt..
Quote:
Ford has used its government loan to retool the Michigan assembly plant in Wayne to make the Ford Focus, Focus Electric and C-Max hybrids. Other investments were made at plants in Dearborn; Livonia; Sterling Heights; Chicago; Louisville, Ky.; Kansas City, Mo.; Cleveland, and Sharonville and Lima, Ohio, Baker said.

Baker also said Ford would have made the investments anyway, but the loans allowed the company to accelerate its retooling plans to get fuel-efficient vehicles on the road "at a time when you couldn't get low-cost financing."

The loans weren't crucial to Ford's survival, and that makes them different in the public eye, said Aaron Bragman of IHS Automotive in Northville.
I don't know where you got the above quote, but I read the article you posted from top to bottom and didn't find it. Please do a better job of referencing your sources.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
They used the money for re-tooling not for Fords survival. All it did was help facilitate bringing the product to the consumer in more timely manner. Was Ford suffering yes they were, but they would have weathered the storm.
All you're doing is playing the semantics game again...you acknowledge that Ford took money but that it wasn't for their survival. That's not my point or focus. I stated that Ford took money from the US government in order to deal with the Financial crisis (doesn't matter whether that money was critical to the company's survival or not). Your own article says as much:

Quote:
He [Mullay] also asked Congress to authorize a credit line of up to $9 billion for Ford in case the economy got worse and the company needed it.
So I am right in that regard...nothing more to argue about.

Last edited by Dalko43; 09-14-2014 at 05:43 AM..
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      09-15-2014, 12:44 AM   #18
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1. Ford borrowed government money in 2008, but not under the TARP program.

2. GM should have gone into bankruptcy in 2009, but the Obama Administration insisted on giving them money instead, in exchange for a significant amount of GM stock (like 70+% of the company). Existing GM stockholders got about $.09 on the dollar for their stock, and couldn't override the government decision. (This never happened with Ford).

3. GM took the Stock money to pay off their TARP loan (an accounting maneuver), instead of paying it off through earnings - because their earnings weren't enough. The GM CEO sent letters to GM owners and took out ads trumpeting that they had paid back the government, when this was not true - and received a lot of negative press over it.

4. The government finally sold their remaining stock in GM in December 2013, and lost $10.5B on it. It could be argued that jobs were saved and more taxes were paid, but I have not seen a comparison of the TARP bailout to what would have happened had GM been allowed to declare a normal bankruptcy, and been taken over by better entrepreneurs. Instead, GM continues to struggle (it's stock was $40/share in Dec 2013 and is $33/share now), and has the same type of management. The new CEO, Mary Barra, is a GM lifer - working there since age 18.

5. In the end, the Unions got paid 93% of their stake in the original GM. Stock/bondholders got pennies on the dollar, and the American taxpayer lost billions. The final stock settlement was delayed until after the 2012 elections.

6. The Obama Administration gave 20% of Chrysler to Fiat, for nothing - no cash at all (BTW - Fiat was in worse shape than Chrysler at the time - Moody's had their credit rating at "junk"). In the end, taxpayers have paid over $12B to bail out Chrysler and give it away to Fiat. Fiat is buying out the UAW this year for $4.4B. Again, the Unions benefit from the Obama Administration, at the taxpayers expense. Thanks, Obama!
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      09-15-2014, 01:07 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Holy Crap!! Why are you posting blatantly false information? With everything one google search away there is no excuse.

Ford did actually take loans from the government during the financial crisis (mostly to insure their massive debt at the time).

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/1...44446120081219

And as of 2012, they still owed $5.9 billion to the government.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmul...-surprise-you/

Google is your friend..and very easy to use.
If your definition of "bail out" is securing a loan, then according to that same link you provided, Nissan, Tesla and Fisker were also "bailed out".
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      09-15-2014, 10:54 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
1. Ford borrowed government money in 2008, but not under the TARP program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
If your definition of "bail out" is securing a loan, then according to that same link you provided, Nissan, Tesla and Fisker were also "bailed out".
I have addressed this multiple times now...I'm not saying Ford took TARP money...all I'm saying is that Ford took money from the government in order to weather the financial crisis. Doesn't matter whether or not that money "bailed" Ford out from a bankruptcy or not (for the record I don't think it did)...Ford took money due to the market downturn in 2008...

I don't think I can be anymore explicit on that issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
3. GM took the Stock money to pay off their TARP loan (an accounting maneuver), instead of paying it off through earnings - because their earnings weren't enough. The GM CEO sent letters to GM owners and took out ads trumpeting that they had paid back the government, when this was not true - and received a lot of negative press over it.
It really doesn't matter how GM paid off their TARP loan, they paid it off.

I'm not aware of how the government might have lost money on its GM stock holdings, but I'd like to see your reference on that. Other articles I have read have indicated that the US government recouped all of the money it put into GM and even gained some interest.

Last edited by Dalko43; 09-15-2014 at 10:59 AM..
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      09-15-2014, 04:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
1. Ford borrowed government money in 2008, but not under the TARP program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
If your definition of "bail out" is securing a loan, then according to that same link you provided, Nissan, Tesla and Fisker were also "bailed out".
I have addressed this multiple times now...I'm not saying Ford took TARP money...all I'm saying is that Ford took money from the government in order to weather the financial crisis. Doesn't matter whether or not that money "bailed" Ford out from a bankruptcy or not (for the record I don't think it did)...Ford took money due to the market downturn in 2008...

I don't think I can be anymore explicit on that issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
3. GM took the Stock money to pay off their TARP loan (an accounting maneuver), instead of paying it off through earnings - because their earnings weren't enough. The GM CEO sent letters to GM owners and took out ads trumpeting that they had paid back the government, when this was not true - and received a lot of negative press over it.
It really doesn't matter how GM paid off their TARP loan, they paid it off.

I'm not aware of how the government might have lost money on its GM stock holdings, but I'd like to see your reference on that. Other articles I have read have indicated that the US government recouped all of the money it put into GM and even gained some interest.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/briansol...-million-loss/

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/auto...on-f2D11716261

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...taxpayers.aspx
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      09-15-2014, 06:56 PM   #22
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I'm so ashamed....

I have a SBA loan.

I didn't realize until i read this thread that I took bail out money??

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