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      07-24-2014, 01:29 PM   #1
pgviper
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Israel Bombings - Possible War Crimes

What is everyones opinion on Israels bombing campaign on Palestine?

So far over 700 palestinians dead. Most of which are civilians. Three times in one week a U.N. medical center has been shelled. The most current one being today. 15 civilians and volunteers killed plus countless more injured. Seriously, what the hell is going on over there?!?!?! Coordinates for U.N. sites are passed to the Israeli government and the military yet they continue to, what it seems like, bomb whoever they want.

Is it just me or is it the media or is this actually whats happening? It seems like Israel is doing nothing to care for the innocent stuck in a hostile area. They refuse to acknowledge U.N. safe zones to evacuate civilians and instead there are reports of Israeli's sitting on a hill overlooking the shelling and cheering it on. What is this a damn movie?!?!?! If the U.S. were carrying on to this extent we would be criticized for the next decade, the president would be impeached and there would be riots!!!!!! Why does it seem acceptable for this to be happening.

Sorry for the rant, I just want to know more about what's going on and listen to some of your opinions on what you think about the current situation. From the information I have gathered, there seems to be a large ethical issue going on.


Helpful or not, here are some Links:

http://www.startribune.com/world/268340182.html

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org...pped-civilians

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...elis-hospitals

DISCLAIMER: lets keep this thread clean. I understand that this can be a sensitive issue to many. I have muslim friends and jewish friends who support both sides. I would like for this thread to stay open and to simply listen to some educated and respectful responses.
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      07-24-2014, 02:23 PM   #2
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The reports I saw on AJAM showed the reason for the high civilian casualties was because HAMAS was (intentionally?) placing their arms caches in places like hospitals, as well as the fact that caches are placed in neighborhoods where the civilian population is very dense.

That was about 2 days ago, so I'm not clear on the UN hospital bombing.

Re the Israeli army guys cheering, that is to be expected of military-trained young men/women. Are they cheering that civilians are dying, probably not. Are they cheering to see big-ass explosions on the enemy's land, I needn't explain that, do I?
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      07-24-2014, 03:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
The reports I saw on AJAM showed the reason for the high civilian casualties was because HAMAS was (intentionally?) placing their arms caches in places like hospitals, as well as the fact that caches are placed in neighborhoods where the civilian population is very dense.

That was about 2 days ago, so I'm not clear on the UN hospital bombing.

Re the Israeli army guys cheering, that is to be expected of military-trained young men/women. Are they cheering that civilians are dying, probably not. Are they cheering to see big-ass explosions on the enemy's land, I needn't explain that, do I?
I agree with everything you just said.

Now just to play devil's advocate, what if it were the U.S. doing these bombings. No way would the international community find that acceptable.

Do you think that instead Israel should be using concentrated air strikes as opposed to bombing raids and/or foot soldiers to take out specific targets.

What is the balance, if there is one, do you think Israel is actively trying to meet that balance or just trying to show force?
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      07-24-2014, 06:51 PM   #4
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If Canada or Mexico were lobbing bombs into US cities, hiding the launchers in major metropolitan areas, the UN probably wouldn't complain too much about the use of force and collateral damages. The Israeli hardware is probably only a generation behind our state of the art, if that much.

Now, should HAMAS stop launching, but Israel continues to bomb civilians on an exceedingly continual basis, it is appropriate to ring up the Israelis for war crimes.

Both the hypothetical US situation, as well as the real Israeli/Palestinian issue, are different (IMHO) from the continued hostilities and supply done in Ukraine.
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      07-25-2014, 02:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
What is everyones opinion on Israels bombing campaign on Palestine?

So far over 700 palestinians dead. Most of which are civilians. Three times in one week a U.N. medical center has been shelled. The most current one being today. 15 civilians and volunteers killed plus countless more injured. Seriously, what the hell is going on over there?!?!?! Coordinates for U.N. sites are passed to the Israeli government and the military yet they continue to, what it seems like, bomb whoever they want.

Is it just me or is it the media or is this actually whats happening? It seems like Israel is doing nothing to care for the innocent stuck in a hostile area. They refuse to acknowledge U.N. safe zones to evacuate civilians and instead there are reports of Israeli's sitting on a hill overlooking the shelling and cheering it on. What is this a damn movie?!?!?! If the U.S. were carrying on to this extent we would be criticized for the next decade, the president would be impeached and there would be riots!!!!!! Why does it seem acceptable for this to be happening.

Sorry for the rant, I just want to know more about what's going on and listen to some of your opinions on what you think about the current situation. From the information I have gathered, there seems to be a large ethical issue going on.


Helpful or not, here are some Links:

http://www.startribune.com/world/268340182.html

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org...pped-civilians

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...elis-hospitals

DISCLAIMER: lets keep this thread clean. I understand that this can be a sensitive issue to many. I have muslim friends and jewish friends who support both sides. I would like for this thread to stay open and to simply listen to some educated and respectful responses.
Suppose people in another country were lobbing missiles into the US, from launch sites located in residential areas. They say they believe this to be justified by whatever, and refuse offers of ceasefire. The government of that country is either unable or unwilling to do anything at all to stop it. What would the large majority of US citizens want our military to do? How concerned would they be about collateral damage to innocent civilians in that other country? Or who is "right" and who is "wrong"?

The only riots and impeachment would be if we didn't strike back with overwhelming force. There has been no serious US civilian opposition to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, which were considerably less justified, and have certainly resulted in many times more innocent lives lost.

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/
http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians

None of that minimizes the fact that the Israel-Palestine situation is awful, from every angle. I hate war, I'm just short of being a pacifist. I agree with John Oliver, it's totally depressing. But there seems to be no real solution.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-25-2014 at 03:23 AM..
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      07-25-2014, 12:24 PM   #6
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So today MSN writes an article on how the palestinian death toll is now 800+ (remember this has only been going on for 2 weeks or so, Iraq and Afghanistan were on and off for two decades).

http://news.msn.com/world/crunch-tim...l-passes-800-1

Do you guys think it's the media trying to make Israel seem like the bad guys?

I agree with what everyone says regarding if it were the U.S.A taking missles from Mexico and/or canada. I can't argue with that. But my point being was that the U.S. would receive a hell of a lot more criticism from the international community for essentially giving an under developed country a puppy kicking like this. Escpecially when international organization like the U.N. is taking severe casualties.
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      07-25-2014, 02:02 PM   #7
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I haven't kept up. After so many years I get desensitized to the violence in Gaza. But it seems like there is an extremely simple (I know, not really) solution: HAMAS agrees to the cease-fire (again) and quits shooting missiles. Unless there are some un-exploded ordinances lying around Gaza, the death toll from Israeli weapons should stop.
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      07-25-2014, 04:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I haven't kept up. After so many years I get desensitized to the violence in Gaza. But it seems like there is an extremely simple (I know, not really) solution: HAMAS agrees to the cease-fire (again) and quits shooting missiles. Unless there are some un-exploded ordinances lying around Gaza, the death toll from Israeli weapons should stop.
Israel rejects cease fire...

http://news.msn.com/world/israel-rej...ll-nears-850-1

"They put the number of Palestinian deaths in 18 days of conflict at 844, most of them civilians."

That is an absurd number. Approximately 2 people per hour are getting killed for 18 days.
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      07-25-2014, 05:38 PM   #9
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Did you read more of that page you linked? HAMAS is targeting BG airport, enough so that US and European airlines stopped going there. That is up there with the outrage over MH17.
HAMAS' demands for a cease-fire include that Egypt open it's borders. I'm just not clear on how dragging Egypt into the conflict helps with the cease-fire. I know Egypt is trying to help by being a facilitator in the talks, and they have some links to Gaza via religion, but it just doesn't fly to put all the onus on Israel not agreeing to the cease-fire.

Just to be clear, I have no dog in the fight other than US tax $ going to Israel.
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      07-25-2014, 08:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
But my point being was that the U.S. would receive a hell of a lot more criticism from the international community for essentially giving an under developed country a puppy kicking like this.
Why would you think that? Yes we got rhetorically criticized some for giving the equally hopeless Iraqis a puppy kicking for no good reason. But was there any real action taken against us? If you want a really "absurd" number, that one caused the deaths of 500,000 Iraqis, give or take, and most were civilians.

You think what's going on is a war crime? That devalues the term. Dresden was a war crime. Send over the high explosive bombers to smash wooden buildings into kindling. Follow up with incendiaries. The whole thing specifically designed to create a firestorm that would surely kill thousands of noncombatants. The generally accepted death toll for that one is 25,000, also mostly civilians. Good thing we won, only the winners run war crimes trials.

Firebombing Tokyo in 1945 killed something more than 100,000. Once again, mostly civilians.

Israel isn't getting a ton of criticism because nobody has any constructive advice about what they should do instead about getting rocketed. Got any specific suggestions?

If you personally want to do something constructive, I suggest this:

http://www.unrwausa.org/

And, by the way, they've reported something that may be of interest.

"UNRWA Condemns Placement of Rockets, for a Second Time, in One of Its Schools"

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-...ne-its-schools

I'm not saying everything Israel does is fine, or justified. This whole thing is a tragedy, with no good guys. Pretty much true for any war. I'm just saying that this isn't either as clear or as one sided as you make out. And that we, contrary to your assertions that the US would be severely taken to task for similar actions, have done far worse, with less attention to avoiding civilian casualties, and gotten away with it with the international community. The real costs to us for our actions have not come from international or US citizen reaction. The same will likely be true for Israel.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-25-2014 at 09:59 PM..
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      07-26-2014, 12:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
Why would you think that? Yes we got rhetorically criticized some for giving the equally hopeless Iraqis a puppy kicking for no good reason. But was there any real action taken against us? If you want a really "absurd" number, that one caused the deaths of 500,000 Iraqis, give or take, and most were civilians.

You think what's going on is a war crime? That devalues the term. Dresden was a war crime. Send over the high explosive bombers to smash wooden buildings into kindling. Follow up with incendiaries. The whole thing specifically designed to create a firestorm that would surely kill thousands of noncombatants. The generally accepted death toll for that one is 25,000, also mostly civilians. Good thing we won, only the winners run war crimes trials.

Firebombing Tokyo in 1945 killed something more than 100,000. Once again, mostly civilians.

Israel isn't getting a ton of criticism because nobody has any constructive advice about what they should do instead about getting rocketed. Got any specific suggestions?

If you personally want to do something constructive, I suggest this:

http://www.unrwausa.org/

And, by the way, they've reported something that may be of interest.

"UNRWA Condemns Placement of Rockets, for a Second Time, in One of Its Schools"

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-...ne-its-schools

I'm not saying everything Israel does is fine, or justified. This whole thing is a tragedy, with no good guys. Pretty much true for any war. I'm just saying that this isn't either as clear or as one sided as you make out. And that we, contrary to your assertions that the US would be severely taken to task for similar actions, have done far worse, with less attention to avoiding civilian casualties, and gotten away with it with the international community. The real costs to us for our actions have not come from international or US citizen reaction. The same will likely be true for Israel.
Regardless of whether you agree with the reasons for the Iraq war, it wasn't a "puppy kicking." That's what Sadaam did to his own people.

The 500k estimate for Iraq war deaths caused by the US makes many, many assumptions, and is based upon questionable calculations:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...d-in-iraq.html

There were huge civilian deaths before the war, and btw - they haven't stopped since the US left.

Dresden was not a war crime - it was a bombing of military targets. Germany located munitions depots, troop reinforcements, fuse manufacturing, bomb site manufacturing, gun and ammunition manufacturing, and many other targets in a city that was made of wood, and didn't have adequate fire prevention measures.

As for firebombing in Tokyo - they also spread out military targets in the civilian-populated areas. From Wikipedia:

Over 50% of Tokyo's industry was spread out among residential and commercial neighborhoods; firebombing cut the whole city's output in half.

Hamas continues to attack Israel at all levels (weapons, rocks, etc.), and then complains that Israel is "puppy-kicking" them, while they locate their war machine amongst the population, hospitals, etc. Israel has bent over backwards to accomodate their demands, yet the Palestinians won't negotiate a peace (the Israelis at one point agreed to Arafat's demands, yet he wouldn't strike a peace settlement with them). This article describes Hamas' founding charter - the organization is all about the destruction of Israel:

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/22/9-...-its-charter/#!
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      07-26-2014, 01:30 PM   #12
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There were huge civilian deaths before the war, and btw - they haven't stopped since the US left.
Not nearly as huge as after the invasion. And the fact that they haven't stopped is due to the chaos we left. We broke Iraq. In addition to being immoral, and so very costly to our brave soldiers and their families, it was stupid in so many ways, not least in the damage it's done to our national security. The rise of Iran, the rise of ISIS, the fact that Iraq is now a base for any number of terrorists, etc. etc.

We broke Iraq for no good reason, we're responsible for the consequences. Lord knows if a miracle had occurred, and Iraq had become a stable democracy, the neoconservatives would be claiming the credit. They richly deserve the blame for what actually happened. Now they want us to go back. Yeah, that was such a treat last time. And they want us to invade Syria, too.

Libya is descending into chaos, also. We've closed the embassy. Is it not dawning on people that being dependent on oil (it doesn't matter where we get ours from, the price is set by a world market driven by Middle East oil, and very sensitive to the chaos there) is a bad thing? Ditto the EUs energy dependence on Russian fossil fuel, which absolutely supports Putin's behavior. No need for Russian fossil fuel, and he'd be on better behavior, since strong US-EU sanctions would destroy his economy.

There's also the minor factor that the only way we can get people to Earth orbit is on Russian rockets.

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      07-26-2014, 01:47 PM   #13
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I am more worried about Muslim immigrants in Europe using this as an excuse to go riot through the streets.
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      07-26-2014, 01:51 PM   #14
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I am more worried about Muslim immigrants in Europe using this as an excuse to go riot through the streets.
Unlikely, in any serious numbers. The great majority of Muslims who have emigrated to the West did not do that to insidiously attack. In general they did it because they think Western society and Western values offer them and their children a better life. That's pretty much a duh.

We could do more to reinforce that belief, both on a personal and a national basis. It's not just a question of values (though it does embody traditional American values), it's a question of enhancing our security.

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      07-26-2014, 01:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
Unlikely, in any serious numbers. The great majority of Muslims who have emigrated to the West are not doing that to insidiously attack. In general they did it because they think Western society and Western values offer them a better life.

We could do more to reinforce that belief, both on a personal and a national basis.
Perhaps the ones who came over first, but it's the youths that will go riot. It only takes one little excuse for them to go bonkers.

Since the Gaza crisis, I have been reading articles of Muslim youth taking to the streets and it's turned into outright anti-Semitism. Jews are being attacked (including children), shops are being destroyed. It's quite terrifying.

In the Netherlands, they're even walking in the streets with ISIS flags. Downright frightening to see this, knowing full well what ISIS' mentality is.



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      07-26-2014, 02:09 PM   #16
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Last time I checked the US wasn't occupying Mexican or Canadian soil for them to lob missiles. But if afghanis or iraqis were firing rockets at the americans that would be justified self defense.
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      07-26-2014, 02:10 PM   #17
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I am more worried about Muslim immigrants in Europe using this as an excuse to go riot through the streets.
And what about the jews rioting in paris?
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      07-26-2014, 02:12 PM   #18
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Did you read more of that page you linked? HAMAS is targeting BG airport, enough so that US and European airlines stopped going there. That is up there with the outrage over MH17.
HAMAS' demands for a cease-fire include that Egypt open it's borders. I'm just not clear on how dragging Egypt into the conflict helps with the cease-fire. I know Egypt is trying to help by being a facilitator in the talks, and they have some links to Gaza via religion, but it just doesn't fly to put all the onus on Israel not agreeing to the cease-fire.

Just to be clear, I have no dog in the fight other than US tax $ going to Israel.
Maybe you should advocate cutting US aid to israel
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      07-26-2014, 02:13 PM   #19
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Perhaps the ones who came over first, but it's the youths that will go riot. It only takes one little excuse for them to go bonkers.

Since the Gaza crisis, I have been reading articles of Muslim youth taking to the streets and it's turned into outright anti-Semitism. Jews are being attacked (including children), shops are being destroyed. It's quite terrifying.

In the Netherlands, they're even walking in the streets with ISIS flags. Downright frightening to see this, knowing full well what ISIS' mentality is.
You're right. But I'm right, too. What you see is a small minority. We could all take steps to keep that the case.

It's also true that there's recently been a frightening rise in anti-Semitism in some native Europeans, including some fairly powerful political leaders. All Western nations need to strongly reinforce the value of universal religious tolerance, and oppose bigotry in any form. Any politician preaching bigotry needs to be ostracized.
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      07-26-2014, 05:57 PM   #20
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Last time I checked the US wasn't occupying Mexican or Canadian soil for them to lob missiles. But if afghanis or iraqis were firing rockets at the americans that would be justified self defense.
Are you saying that Israel is occupying Palestinian soil? Because that would be incorrect.
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      07-26-2014, 06:00 PM   #21
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Maybe you should advocate cutting US aid to israel
Or cutting US aid to Arab/Muslim countries, who consistently vote against us at the UN, as well as provide anti-terrorist US havens (e.g. Pakistan, Egypt, and now Iraq).
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      07-26-2014, 06:02 PM   #22
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And what about the jews rioting in paris?
I must have missed that - do you have a link?
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