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      07-02-2015, 10:37 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
No I could careless about the flag. I personally would never fly it but I'm not going to try and infringe on anyone who does want to fly it. We got way bigger issues to deal with in America and overseas. Yet we seem to want to focus our time on gay marriage, a flag, and how "brave" some washed up athlete is for becoming a woman.

And as far as "a lot of the rest of the country" goes; "57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism". Again almost 60% of Americans don't see it that way.
Frankly, nobody is trying to stop you from flying any flag you want. All that's at issue is whether the Confederate Flag is flown on government property.

You are right, America has bigger fish to fry, so to speak. That some people even made it a "fish to fry," if you will, when the request was made to cease and desist flying the darn thing is even more astounding to me than is that someone made the request. I can understand why someone may be sensitive to the Confederate flag flying above a government building, say. I cannot understand why other folks, being aware of the sensitivity, and thinking too that "America has bigger fish to fry," would make a big deal about it.

If nothing else, in recognition of the already "bad enough" racial angst, strife, discord in America, I'd think most rational folks would say, "Okay. I don't see the flag that way, but if it'll help in some small way to calm some of the racial issues we face, fine, don't fly the thing. The history associated with it isn't going away whether we fly that flag or not, but if we don't, maybe some of the feelings of divisiveness that some folks have will if the government doesn't fly it."

All the best.
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      07-02-2015, 12:55 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
No one talks about the Native Americans that were slaughtered under the American flag. If they are going to pull the confederate flag then they might as well pull the Stars and Stripes as well.

Good or bad, it all part of history can't hide it under the rug.
First off, flying a flag, any flag, on a building or adjoining property isn't compulsory anywhere in the U.S. (http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30243.pdf)

Do Native Americans fly the American flag on their tribal government buildings that are dedicated to tribal governance purposes? I honestly don't know. Heck, I don't even know that there are such buildings. I know one was considered but I don't actually know how far the idea got carried. (http://www.nativelegalupdate.com/200...ribal-embassy/)

That said, there are some key differences between Native American's present day relationship with U.S.' governmental organizations and policies and that of everyone and the government of of the Confederate States of American (CSA) and that former entity's policies. One key difference is that in spite of all that's transpired re: Native Americans and conflict with non-native Americans of years gone by, the Native Americans who reside within the confines of U.S. borders depend on and/or expect and receive the benefits of U.S. protection and ongoing infrastructure, be it publicly or privately funded and effected, in whole or in part. In return for those benefits, they can fly the American flag as a simple indication of gratitude if nothing else.

Another key difference is that the U.S. is not a country the nations of Native Americans fought and defeated in a war. Also, U.S. actually exists.

That simply isn't the case for anyone with regard to the CSA. Moreover, as a nation, and make no mistake the Confederate flag was the flag of a nation, the CSA does not exist, and that's without even considering that it was a nation that lost it's war with U.S.

All the best.
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      07-02-2015, 02:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post

That simply isn't the case for anyone with regard to the CSA. Moreover, as a nation, and make no mistake the Confederate flag was the flag of a nation, the CSA does not exist, and that's without even considering that it was a nation that lost it's war with U.S.

All the best.
The flag they're trying to ban isn't the flag of the CSA, it's just the rebel battle flag, which carries no meaning today:

The first picture is the traditional battle flag/rebel flag/dixie flag. The second is the actual flag of the Confederate States of America.

Sizing is a bit weird...
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      07-02-2015, 02:37 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
The flag they're trying to ban isn't the flag of the CSA, it's just the rebel battle flag, which carries no meaning today:

The first picture is the traditional battle flag/rebel flag/dixie flag. The second is the actual flag of the Confederate States of America.

Sizing is a bit weird...
Well, if it carries no meaning these days, why fly it at all over a government building? Government buildings don't need any decorative adornments beyond architectural ones, and it's debatable whether they even need those.

All the best.
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      07-02-2015, 02:44 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Well, if it carries no meaning these days, why fly it at all over a government building? Government buildings don't need any decorative adornments beyond architectural ones, and it's debatable whether they even need those.

All the best.
That flag isn't flown over government buildings (not here at least).

It's actually part of my state flag (see below).

I agree government buildings don't need decorations. But they do need the flag of the United States.

It bothers me when people care more for the removal of an old flag because its "disrespectful" or "it bothers them" than people defiling the American flag, but it's "their right."
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      07-02-2015, 03:36 PM   #72
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Within the past two days have read two good articles (Washington Post-Uni. of Vermont Prof. / NewYorker Uni. Of Conn. African American studies)
They make a good argument that for a solid 100 years after the Civil War a concerted effort including national text books, monuments among other pillars, that these institutions concerted to diffuse the meaning of the Confederacy from as they argue to maintain slavery to a more palatable association concerning: tariffs, State rights and family heritage.

I tell ya, if I were Black, I'd be a little freaked and nervous if I saw a Confederate flag. Wondering how many business in the South hang a Stars & Bars as a 'No Colors' statement.
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      07-02-2015, 03:50 PM   #73
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Wondering how many business in the South hang a Stars & Bars as a 'No Colors' statement.
None
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      07-02-2015, 03:55 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
That flag isn't flown over government buildings (not here at least).

It's actually part of my state flag (see below).

I agree government buildings don't need decorations. But they do need the flag of the United States.

It bothers me when people care more for the removal of an old flag because its "disrespectful" or "it bothers them" than people defiling the American flag, but it's "their right."
Well that the rebel battle flag is part of your state flag suggests to me at least that the imagery of the rebel battle flag does indeed have meaning. It's unlikely, even for Mississippians, to have a flag that has imagery and it be so that the imagery be 100% devoid of meaning. That pretty well would defeat the point of having a flag with any imagery at all. If one wants a flag with no meaning at all, the folks who agreed on the current design could have picked a blue one and called it day.

In Mississippi, there once was the Magnolia Flag. It was the state flag from 1861 to 1865 and was used until 1894. Among Mississippians, it wasn't used because the Rebel Flag battle flag, as you put it (and I'm not disagreeing that that's what it was/is), was used instead. (http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/ms_flag.htm) So just how much "no meaning" is there to that battle flag? In my mind, it has much the same meaning today that it did in 1862.

Mississippi Magnolia Flag




I don't know about you, but in comparison with the current flag, the Magnolia Flag seems a much better choice given the implications some people take from the Rebel imagery on the current one. But I don't live in Mississippi, and I rarely even visit the state, so the "skin" I have in that debate is minimal to none, and the "minimal train" is about to leave the station. The same can be said about SC and me, except that I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to that state.

My comments on the matter are purely the result of my understandings and my ability to sympathize for the hurt others state they feel over the matter. The truth is I don't give a tinker's dam over the imagery on any state flag. I do care about what's on the D.C. flag, and I'm okay with its imagery, regardless of whether it's what I'd have put there were it my decision to choose what it depicts.

Sidebar:
My father (97 now) was born and raised in Mississippi. He and his siblings still have property a little outside of Natchez, and some of them live there. Believe me...I have plenty of understanding of what that Rebel Flag means and never did mean, which is more to the point of why people today take exception with it, especially Jews and Blacks for obvious reasons. Indeed, Jews were "universally" despised by white Christians. General Ulysses Grant actually despised them so much he issued General Order #11 of 1862, which among other things stated, "The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the department within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order." (http://www.jewish-history.com/civilwar/go11.htm)

All the best.
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      07-02-2015, 04:01 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ScottSinger View Post
Within the past two days have read two good articles (Washington Post-Uni. of Vermont Prof. / NewYorker Uni. Of Conn. African American studies)
They make a good argument that for a solid 100 years after the Civil War a concerted effort including national text books, monuments among other pillars, that these institutions concerted to diffuse the meaning of the Confederacy from as they argue to maintain slavery to a more palatable association concerning: tariffs, State rights and family heritage.

I tell ya, if I were Black, I'd be a little freaked and nervous if I saw a Confederate flag. Wondering how many business in the South hang a Stars & Bars as a 'No Colors' statement.
I can't say that blacks "freak" over seeing one, but I am certain that more than a few, perhaps even most, regard with trepidation establishments and individuals that display one. I seriously doubt a black person in the South (perhaps in any U.S. region) whose car broke down on the highway or somewhere would accept an offer for a ride from an unknown to them fellow who has the Confederate flag displayed somewhere about his vehicle. Maybe some would, but think most would say, "No. I'm fine. Someone else is coming. Thank you." By the same token, I don't know that such an individual would stop and offer a ride/help, so it may be a moot point as to what the black individual would do.

All the best.
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      07-02-2015, 06:23 PM   #76
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Confederate Flag = BAD. ISIL flag = perfectly OK, according to walmart.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walma...ry?id=32103721

I would have guessed that a higher percentage of Walmarts customers are folks from the South who might think positively of that flag, than are islamic extremists bent on killing and torturing western infidels. If you are going to pander to 1 group at the expense of another, why not pick the bigger group?


I support an individuals right to display a flag on their own property. On taxpayer land, then I'm not sure why anyone of any skin color would be OK with their tax dollars going towards the flag associated with a group that was AT WAR with the country they currently pay taxes to... (and presumably/hopefully feel some allegiance towards)

There are people in England who may have German heritage, and are proud of that. But, it would be very absurd of any of them would dare ask the government of the UK to pay for and fly a German flag on government land. Citizens of the UK paid dearly (with both taxes and lives) to ensure that such a flag is not the one flying above government buildings.
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      07-02-2015, 08:34 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Confederate Flag = BAD. ISIL flag = perfectly OK, according to walmart.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walma...ry?id=32103721

I would have guessed that a higher percentage of Walmarts customers are folks from the South who might think positively of that flag, than are islamic extremists bent on killing and torturing western infidels. If you are going to pander to 1 group at the expense of another, why not pick the bigger group?


I support an individuals right to display a flag on their own property. On taxpayer land, then I'm not sure why anyone of any skin color would be OK with their tax dollars going towards the flag associated with a group that was AT WAR with the country they currently pay taxes to... (and presumably/hopefully feel some allegiance towards)

There are people in England who may have German heritage, and are proud of that. But, it would be very absurd of any of them would dare ask the government of the UK to pay for and fly a German flag on government land. Citizens of the UK paid dearly (with both taxes and lives) to ensure that such a flag is not the one flying above government buildings.
It's obvious from your next to last paragraph above that you get the point of not flying a Confederate flag on the grounds of government property. Accordingly, don't think I'm chastising you in that regard. I'm not. What follows is merely my thoughts regarding the manner in which you introduced the post and the myopia and hypocrisy of the comments the guy who bought the cake made.

You know the opening line to your post above is at the least inflammatory, and by my reading of the article to which you provided a link, a clear misrepresentation of the truth. Walmart's spokesperson very clearly stated, "An associate in a local store did not know what the design meant and made a mistake. The cake should not have been made and we apologize." I for one imagine the Walmart employee who made/sold the cake didn't have the first idea of what ISIS' battle flag looks like. I'm not even sure I think they should have had known.

Mr. Netzhammer is somewhat dim witted or he is a deliberate instigator, IMO. I can't say for sure which, but from his own statements I think it's obvious he's one, the other, or a bit of both. Additionally, it's at least disingenuous, if not dim witted, of Mr. Netzhammer to at once expect to express himself via a Rebel flag while decrying Walmart's expressing themselves by not selling him one. I think it's fine that Mr. Netzhammer stated his observation regarding what his local Walmart would and would not sell to him at the time he attempted to buy a cake from them. Extending his observation to a generalization about what Muslims think/feel or don't seems entirely unsupported by the observations he shared, which by the way, didn't have a damn thing to do with the ISIS flag imagery he was able to purchase on the cake he bought.

Mr. Netzhammer stated, "I’m not doing this out of hate for Walmart. They are choosing what’s offensive or not. If a Muslim walked in a Walmart and saw pork, they would think that’s offensive....I am your everyday Joe." As for his ridiculous statement about how offended Muslims might be, I'm not aware of much cause to think his statement holds a shred of truth among most Muslims, but perhaps I'm wrong and Mr. Netzhammer is well versed with regard to what Muslims in general think or don't think regarding Walmart's selling pork in their stores.

I can say that Walmart has made efforts to respond to it's Muslim customers who patronize Walmart's Oxford, OH store. Oxford, OH is largely a college town that supports the needs of the Miami University community and the Muslims who made a Muslim faith-specific request of Walmart are (were) students at that university. (http://miamistudent.net/?p=17002966 and http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/11/wa...er-halal-meat/)

That said, Walmart agreed to respond to those students request only to the extent that the Oxford, OH Walmart will carry halal meats, not that it will stop carrying pork, or even non-halal meats. Given that Miami University Muslim students shop at that Walmart, it seems reasonable to me that they are quite reasonable insofar as, offended or not, they don't see the need to gripe about what else Walmart sells that they have zero interest in purchasing. Additionally, it stands to reason that those students probably were buying halal meat somewhere, Kroger perhaps, prior to Walmart agreeing to sell halal meat. Indeed if the Oxford, OH Kroger was selling halal meat when the Walmart there was not, it's quite likely that business competition fact probably had something to do with Walmart's decision to also offer halal meats.

Walmart is a private entity that doesn't purport to or have to represent or respect the interests of any group or individuals other than its stockholders. What it will or won't agree to produce as a cake design, or stok on their shelves, is up to Walmart. Walmart is free to offend anyone they want to offend so long as they don't cross the line and break a law in the process of doing so. Walmart offends whomever it wants at the peril of its revenue stream, which, quite frankly, is Walmart's revenue stream to jeopardize as it sees fit.

All the best.
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      07-02-2015, 09:19 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
You know the opening line to your post above is at the least inflammatory, and by my reading of the article to which you provided a link, a clear misrepresentation of the truth. Walmart's spokesperson very clearly stated, "An associate in a local store did not know what the design meant and made a mistake. The cake should not have been made and we apologize." I for one imagine the Walmart employee who made/sold the cake didn't have the first idea of what ISIS' battle flag looks like. I'm not even sure I think they should have had known.
Perhaps had I phrased it "ISIL flag is OK, according to Walmart associate", you would find my inflammatory statement to be less of a misrepresentation.
Wal-mart is certainly free to make whatever cakes they choose, and to hire whatever caliber of employees they choose. Granted, the associate clearly does not speak on behalf of walmart as a whole.

I'd bet money that the associate cannot coherently speak on behalf of his household, much less a mega corporation, given the fact that he was able to identify the symbol of an organization that was a threat to the Union hundreds of years ago, but cannot identify the symbol of an organization that is a clear threat to the union TODAY. That's a surprise, if you ask me, especially considering how it's plastered all over the news media. I suppose if you dont consume TV, newspapers, or the internet, then perhaps you might not have thought, "hmmm, I've seen that design somewhere before."
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      07-02-2015, 09:47 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Perhaps had I phrased it "ISIL flag is OK, according to Walmart associate", you would find my inflammatory statement to be less of a misrepresentation.
Wal-mart is certainly free to make whatever cakes they choose, and to hire whatever caliber of employees they choose. Granted, the associate clearly does not speak on behalf of walmart as a whole.

I'd bet money that the associate cannot coherently speak on behalf of his household, much less a mega corporation, given the fact that he was able to identify the symbol of an organization that was a threat to the Union hundreds of years ago, but cannot identify the symbol of an organization that is a clear threat to the union TODAY. That's a surprise, if you ask me, especially considering how it's plastered all over the news media. I suppose if you dont consume TV, newspapers, or the internet, then perhaps you might not have thought, "hmmm, I've seen that design somewhere before."
No, the revised phrasing you mention would not alter my view regarding the nature of your post's opening line. No matter how you phrase the thought, it simply is in contradiction with what Walmart's spokesperson expressly stated and as such is a misrepresentation of facts. That person said in no uncertain terms, "The cake should not have been made and we apologize." Accordingly there is nothing about your or anyone else's claiming that Walmart thinks the ISIL/ISIS flag is okay that will make that claim be a factual representation of what Walmart thinks about that flag/symbol as it pertains to Walmart's making a cake that depicts it. Also, Walmart doesn't sell ISIL/ISIS flags.

All the best.
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      07-02-2015, 10:44 PM   #80
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Sick of all of it. The fact you think Jeb Bush, or any ****ing Bush should be anywhere near the White House again makes me even sicker.
Nah, Tony's for Hillary simply because she was married to a President; that's her qualification to be No. 45.
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      07-02-2015, 10:47 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
No, the revised phrasing you mention would not alter my view regarding the nature of your post's opening line. No matter how you phrase the thought, it simply is in contradiction with what Walmart's spokesperson expressly stated and as such is a misrepresentation of facts. That person said in no uncertain terms, "The cake should not have been made and we apologize." Accordingly there is nothing about your or anyone else's claiming that Walmart thinks the ISIL/ISIS flag is okay that will make that claim be a factual representation of what Walmart thinks about that flag/symbol as it pertains to Walmart's making a cake that depicts it. Also, Walmart doesn't sell ISIL/ISIS flags.

All the best.
Bet Walmart would still have made the cake if the purchaser were gay (maybe a pizza too). Oh yeah, that's right, ISIS kill gay people. Oops, my mistake.
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      07-03-2015, 10:40 AM   #82
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Bubba Watson is the latest victim of political correctness and herd mentality. Another sheep...

Bubba Watson to paint over General Lee

http://www.pnj.com/story/sports/2015...-lee/29649447/
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      07-03-2015, 01:42 PM   #83
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The left is all about tolerance and the respect for the ideas/opinions of others. They are for diversity as well, diversity makes us stronger.

Of course, if you don't agree with their ideas they are the most intolerant people on the planet. Expect to be called a racist, or filled with hatred when you don't agree with them.

Are you used to Religious and other traditions known for generations? Screw you racist, you're filled with hate. Bow down to the rainbow, you'll get used to it.

As well, if you're a person of color who doesn't tow the party line (Clarence Thomas for instance), you're instantly a sell out or an Uncle Tom. The left saves their special sort of venom for minorities who aren't on the Lib plantation.

The left is the most hypocritical bunch of assholes I've ever seen. I'd never vote for a Republican due to their penchant for sending young men and women to die and be ground up in the military industrial complex, but the left just sickens me with their blatant and obvious race baiting, intolerance, and quite honestly outright fascism. They want to stamp out ALL dissent, they should be fought tooth and nail by every freedom loving American. Their road is the one to absolute tyranny.

Look at this current administration, which hailed itself as the most "transparent administration" in history in 2008. They have locked everyone out, harassed and snooped on reporters, deleted emails and hard drives after being issues subpoenas, caught in lie after lie, it's incredible. You simply cannot have a more corrupt administration, they make Bush look like a choir boy for all his lying and deceit.

Finally, the rainbow flag offends me libs, and I'm a Libertarian. Blow me.
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      07-03-2015, 01:48 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
Bubba Watson is the latest victim of political correctness and herd mentality. Another sheep...

Bubba Watson to paint over General Lee

http://www.pnj.com/story/sports/2015...-lee/29649447/
Stupid people often are influenced by stupid people
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      07-03-2015, 01:52 PM   #85
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The left is all about tolerance and the respect for the ideas/opinions of others. They are for diversity as well, diversity makes us stronger.

Of course, if you don't agree with their ideas they are the most intolerant people on the planet. Expect to be called a racist, or filled with hatred when you don't agree with them.

Are you used to Religious and other traditions known for generations? Screw you racist, you're filled with hate. Bow down to the rainbow, you'll get used to it.

As well, if you're a person of color who doesn't tow the party line (Clarence Thomas for instance), you're instantly a sell out or an Uncle Tom. The left saves their special sort of venom for minorities who aren't on the Lib plantation.

The left is the most hypocritical bunch of assholes I've ever seen. I'd never vote for a Republican due to their penchant for sending young men and women to die and be ground up in the military industrial complex, but the left just sickens me with their blatant and obvious race baiting, intolerance, and quite honestly outright fascism. They want to stamp out ALL dissent, they should be fought tooth and nail by every freedom loving American. Their road is the one to absolute tyranny.

Look at this current administration, which hailed itself as the most "transparent administration" in history in 2008. They have locked everyone out, harassed and snooped on reporters, deleted emails and hard drives after being issues subpoenas, caught in lie after lie, it's incredible. You simply cannot have a more corrupt administration, they make Bush look like a choir boy for all his lying and deceit.

Finally, the rainbow flag offends me libs, and I'm a Libertarian. Blow me.
So is the right. They hide behind the bible or "family values" to promote and equally offensive agenda. You can make all the same statements about the far right. Or the far anything. Anyone who is an extremist is going to do the same thing and just repackage it. Call it religious freedom or call it socialism. Same side of a different coin
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      07-03-2015, 01:59 PM   #86
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So is the right. They hide behind the bible or "family values" to promote and equally offensive agenda. You can make all the same statements about the far right. Or the far anything. Anyone who is an extremist is going to do the same thing and just repackage it. Call it religious freedom or call it socialism. Same side of a different coin
Absolutely, but to me the left is far more dangerous as they control the media and the schools/education. The vast majority of people cannot think for themselves and are spoon fed propaganda. The far right is on the way out, I see them being the minority in the not too distant future.

Due to the changing demographics, I'd be surprised to see a Republican win a national election ever again.
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      07-03-2015, 02:01 PM   #87
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Maurice's BBQ flew it and sold cf merch for years here in Columbia. Never saw a black person eating or working there. They stopped a couple years ago though. I own a janitorial service here in Columbia and look at the flag everyday. It embarrasses me. I currently have 42 black employees. It shames and embarrasses them. Having that many black folks working for me for the last 20 years, I have gained a perspective most white people don't get. It is a symbol that will divide us until it disappears. It needs to go into a museum and no where else.
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      07-03-2015, 02:03 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Absolutely, but to me the left is far more dangerous as they control the media and the schools/education. The vast majority of people cannot think for themselves and are spoon fed propaganda. The far right is on the way out, I see them being the minority in the not too distant future.

Due to the changing demographics, I'd be surprised to see a Republican win a national election ever again.
They won't unless something huge happens like another 9/11. The gop wont nominate a moderate candidate and the right wing media won't support one. Thus they are all running on the same 40 year old platform. The only position shift they and was on illegal immigration Other then that it's the same message that' doesn't resonate with mainstream America and certainly younger voters. If the gop would recognize that the country evolves they would be able to deliver a message that resonates
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