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      08-15-2015, 01:22 PM   #1
tony20009
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Democrat or Republican...I don't care for the most part

Perhaps I'm the odd man out, but I care less about who wins the Presidency, and what party they belong to, than I do about the person winning being someone who's not beholden to big business. Ditto for Congressional representatives.

Every election season we hear about "wanting change." Well the change I want is elected leaders having yours and my interests first, that of our children and grandchildren second, small business third, American owned big business fourth. As far as I'm concerned, everyone and everything else shouldn't count.

As a management consultant who for the past decade has worked more in the international sphere than in the domestic U.S. one, it's gradually become more and more apparent to me that what's good for big business in America is not necessarily what's good for American citizens, that is good for people. I'm not alone in beginning to recognize this:
  • Harvard Business Review: "...America’s Corporate Elite is increasingly seen as betraying the American Dream, not building it. " (https://hbr.org/2010/10/is-whats-good-for-corporate-am)
  • Kathleen Reardon, Professor Emeritus, Marshall School, USC: "It's time to stop listening to endless repetition of the narrow-minded view that rules and laws should not be changed if they pose even a whiff of difficulty for business. More often than not, it's a bogus argument and a selfish one at that. American businesses that inflexible are soon out of business anyway, and we're all the better for it." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathle...b_4967035.html)
  • Vijay Govindarajan, Tuck School professor and Harvard Business School Fellow
    Mark Goulston, business consultant, author and psychiatrist
    Chris Trimble, business consultant, Executive Director of the William F. Achtmeyer Center for Global Leadership, Tuck School of Business (2000-10)
    "One company's annual report described how their newly launched medical device led to a radical improvement in post-surgical outcomes -- but only to explain the company's improving business performance. Apparently, medical breakthroughs have nothing to do with social performance." (http://www.fastcompany.com/resources...ct/071904.html)
More and more, I find myself measuring political candidates in terms of whether they are going to be good for the average American more so than for myself in particular.

Why? Well, largely because life's been good to me; it started out pretty well and has only gotten better, to the point that only a major, national catastrophe, something more major than the 2008 financial crisis, is going to make me or my family have a rough way to go. Call that luck; call it whatever you want. I doubt that most other "average Americans" like me can say the same thing. What I can say, however, is that if most average Americans don't soon demand of their elected leaders that their concerns are put directly ahead of those of businesses, the American Dream will never come to fruition for them.

So the change I want to see is one where business and governments serve people. What we have is people serving the interests of big business and government.

All the best.
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Last edited by tony20009; 09-01-2015 at 10:51 AM.. Reason: typo: removed "not" from last sentence.
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      08-19-2015, 12:28 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
So the change I want to see is one where business and governments server people. What we have not is people serving the interests of big business and government.
With these people currently the favored in their respective parties:

View post on imgur.com


And...



At the 1:00 mark:
Quote:
Reporter: You were the official in charge of it, did you wipe your server?
Hillary: Like with a cloth or something? I don't know how it works digitally at all.
I'd say we're in good shape. Democracy and the American Dream will be just fine.
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      08-19-2015, 12:59 PM   #3
tony20009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
With these people currently the favored in their respective parties:

View post on imgur.com


And...
[video deleted]

At the 1:00 mark:


I'd say we're in good shape. Democracy and the American Dream will be just fine.
You probably should be a bit more direct. What are you trying to say?

All the best.
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      08-19-2015, 01:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
You probably should be a bit more direct. What are you trying to say?

All the best.
It's more in jest. I was just making the point that the two current front runners in each party probably won't do much to swing the needle as far as being representative of the typical American vs. donors and lobbyists.
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      08-19-2015, 02:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
It's more in jest. I was just making the point that the two current front runners in each party probably won't do much to swing the needle as far as being representative of the typical American vs. donors and lobbyists.
Sorrowfully, I agree.

All the best.
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      08-19-2015, 03:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
With these people currently the favored in their respective parties:

View post on imgur.com


And...



At the 1:00 mark:


I'd say we're in good shape. Democracy and the American Dream will be just fine.
No she di-int!!!
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      08-19-2015, 03:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
It's more in jest. I was just making the point that the two current front runners in each party probably won't do much to swing the needle as far as being representative of the typical American vs. donors and lobbyists.
Yeah..big business controls the politicians and the politicians control the laws such as term limits, campaign contributions, etc. All we really vote for is more of the same because that is the only choice. It has spiraled so far out of control that the only way to really fix it, and may happen many years down the road would be a revolution and complete government takeover.
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      08-19-2015, 04:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
Yeah..big business controls the politicians and the politicians control the laws such as term limits, campaign contributions, etc. All we really vote for is more of the same because that is the only choice. It has spiraled so far out of control that the only way to really fix it, and may happen many years down the road would be a revolution and complete government takeover.
Or as a nation we could vote for the long shot in every race. One thing's certain, that person would always be the candidate who got the least amount of big money funding and s/he'd know damn well that they owe their win to voters not deep pockets.

Probably won't happen, but it might work.

All the best.
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      08-19-2015, 04:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
Yeah..big business controls the politicians and the politicians control the laws such as term limits, campaign contributions, etc. All we really vote for is more of the same because that is the only choice. It has spiraled so far out of control that the only way to really fix it, and may happen many years down the road would be a revolution and complete government takeover.
Government Takeover: Sponsored By Shell Oil
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      08-19-2015, 05:28 PM   #10
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Nobody will want to overthrow the Government after they sober up long enough to realize that it is that same Government that writes them checks, and buys them food, and subsidizes their rent, and subsidizes their health insurance. Don't know what they'd revolt over..
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      08-19-2015, 05:57 PM   #11
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Nobody will want to overthrow the Government after they sober up long enough to realize that it is that same Government that writes them checks, and buys them food, and subsidizes their rent, and subsidizes their health insurance. Don't know what they'd revolt over..
Their human dignity
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      08-19-2015, 06:23 PM   #12
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The Gubment fixed the dignity issues when they switched the food stamps over to charge cards. Dignity is important. When I watched them looting in Ferguson my first impression was how dignified they all were.
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      08-19-2015, 06:38 PM   #13
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I totally agree. What's good for big business is not good for the general public. The pursuit of profits is directly opposed to what is good for the public.

It's not bad to pursue profit but the cost of that profit is sometimes very high.

I just read this article on Amazon's work culture. The company is doing very well and it is the poster child for e-commerce in the US... but at what cost? The employees are overworked and its work culture is cut throat to those within it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/te...workplace.html
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      08-19-2015, 07:55 PM   #14
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Can you imagine what instant run-off voting would be like?
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      08-19-2015, 08:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Their human dignity
Most gave that up some time ago to simply get their money...
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      08-19-2015, 08:14 PM   #16
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      08-19-2015, 08:54 PM   #17
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Lots of classic political spin in this thread already, good stuff.

"Whats good for big business is not good for the public" - think about this for a bit before you keep repeating it. Big business employs a lot of the middle class. Its a very fine line and can go either way depending on the specific policy or proposal. Blanket statements either way on this matter are naive.

Take Amazon as an example... that article was brutal. But Amazon is a notorious money LOSER... so even though they are getting close to $100B in revenue its not like they are a cash printing machine. They continue to smoke cash for the sake of trying to innovate. Management takes a lot of flack for this. That is why you have a choice, you can buy the stock or take a job at amazon if you believe in it. If you don't believe its sustainable or don't like the company you can choose to do neither of those things.

These are much too complex of issues to really even make a good point on a political forum but there is one simple way that people can actually have a shot at having a positive impact. Find a politician you actually believe in. Support them both with your time and your wallet. If you can't find a politician you believe in consider getting involved yourself. Our government remains "of the people" and thus needs good people to function in a healthy manner. Unfortunately there just aren't enough good people entering the system right now which allows many of the good ones to be bullied out by the more powerful and entrenched politicians.

I still argue that one of the best changes we could make in today's political environment would be to place term limits on senators and all congressmen. Shake things up a bit. Allow some change agents to replace career politicians who make every move based on their worry that they'll fail to win reelection.

As for the executive branch I want a pragmatic and reasonable middle of the road candidate that can start to make politicians actually do their jobs on both sides of the aisle. (this is a pipe dream by the way). Did you know that even republican vs democrat intramural sports leagues no longer exist? think about that. Our country is so partisan right now that there is no longer organized mingling between parties (which is where friendships used to develop that would help later on). This all makes perfect sense because just because I believe one way on abortion I should definitely believe the same as everybody else in my party when it comes to fiscal policy right? And gay marriage right? and foreign policy right? Its literally crazy that the country splits nearly perfectly down party lines on all of these entirely unrelated issues.

*ends rant, jumps off soapbox and runs away*
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      08-19-2015, 11:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by BwoodBMW View Post
I still argue that one of the best changes we could make in today's political environment would be to place term limits on senators and all congressmen. Shake things up a bit. Allow some change agents to replace career politicians who make every move based on their worry that they'll fail to win reelection.
Spot on.

Sorry to keep referencing to Bill Maher, but he saying exactly what you said:
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      08-20-2015, 04:35 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BwoodBMW View Post
...Blanket statements either way on this matter are naive.

Take Amazon as an example... that article was brutal. But Amazon is a notorious money LOSER...

These are much too complex of issues to really even make a good point on a political forum but there is one simple way that people can actually have a shot at having a positive impact. Find a politician you actually believe in. Support them both with your time and your wallet. If you can't find a politician you believe in consider getting involved yourself. ...
Red:
"Notorious money loser" by what measure? Amazon's 10K filings show net income (loss) as:
  • 2006 -- $190M
  • 2007 -- $476M
  • 2008 -- $645M
  • 2009 -- $902M
  • 2010 -- $1.152B
  • 2011 -- $631M
  • 2012 -- ($39M)
  • 2013 -- $274M
  • 2014 -- ($241M)
  • 2015 Q1 -- ($57M)
  • 2015 Q2 -- $92M
    Source: Amazon.com 10K/10Q filings with the SEC
Where are the "notorious money losses" in those results? I chose to depict net income for the years shown because it is where net losses appear in Amazon's income statement and thus presents a picutre closer to what you claim are "notorious losses" than does income from operations (IFO) for those same years. IFO paints a better picture at $178M in 2014, $389M in 2006 and close to double that or more in all other years noted.

Blue:
Yes, there is, and that way would be to bother confirming the veracity of the information they have received before (1) accepting it to be true and (2) sharing it with others.

Purple:
Frankly I think believing in a person is pointless. One needs to find people -- including politicians -- who demonstrate integrity and honesty to the point that one knows (not believes) they do not "spin" or misrepresent facts in order to manipulate the way they or the situations they discuss are perceived. In short, one needs to find people who will unabashedly and without exception "own their sh*t."

I can live with politicians and government administrators/manager making mistakes in judgement. People aren't perfect and I don't expect them to get the right answer every time. I do expect people to say, "We did the best we could at the time and it turns out we got it wrong. Period. We are doing XYZ to rectify the mistake(s)."

That's what I expect -- from leaders as well as observers -- because, as you noted, much "stuff" these days is very complex. It's just unreasonable to demand perfection. We can demand perfection when solving problems in calculus or algebra class, but domestic and foreign policy making is not calculus or algebra, and it won't ever be, no matter how much people want to it to be.

And because of the difficulty in knowing beforehand what course will prove to be the best, it becomes in modern society more important that elected leaders are candid, honest, and comprehensive in explaining what they see as priorities and how they plan to address them. And frankly, what I want is candidates who care more about my fortunes and your fortunes than they do about Amazon-dot-damn-coms.

All the best.
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      08-20-2015, 11:30 AM   #20
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People get too wrapped up in the social issues to ever actually elect an official that will be good for them, economically wise.

Most people I know that are strongly opinionated right or left, can only tell you the social stances of politicians, but couldnt tell you the 1st thing about their economic goals/plans; and that is why the poor stay poor, the middle class stay in the middle and the rich get richer.

I don't care if a politician leans one way or the other on gay marriage, abortion... what matters are items that affect the economy, my money and my job
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      08-20-2015, 11:34 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csu87 View Post
People get too wrapped up in the social issues to ever actually elect an official that will be good for them, economically wise.

Most people I know that are strongly opinionated right or left, can only tell you the social stances of politicians, but couldnt tell you the 1st thing about their economic goals/plans; and that is why the poor stay poor, the middle class stay in the middle and the rich get richer.

I don't care if a politician leans one way or the other on gay marriage, abortion... what matters are items that affect the economy, my money and my job
Weird, around here, in my experience is the complete opposite.
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      08-20-2015, 11:35 AM   #22
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Weird, around here, in my experience is the complete opposite.
you live in arlington, I live in hippy colorado. try having any kind of political debate with a stoner and it always turns into a legalization conversation.
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